#3998831 - 08/21/14 01:02 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Patrocles]
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Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
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A modified version of the Three Laws. Amazing how those have persisted when it was just a plot device Asimov created to justify having benevolent robots (as most every previous SF story had them like metal versions of Frankenstein's monster).
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#3999213 - 08/22/14 06:06 AM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Jedi Master]
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PV1
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sometime mudslinger
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A modified version of the Three Laws. Amazing how those have persisted when it was just a plot device Asimov created to justify having benevolent robots (as most every previous SF story had them like metal versions of Frankenstein's monster).
Do you have a reference for that? It seems far more than a plot device to me; it's a simple rational feature, which helps distinguish sensible stories about possible futures from silly horror stories (I realize that "silly horror stories" is redundant). If you are going to build devices which apparently achieve some sort of consciousness (a very problematic premise, but regardless), then you had better have built in safeguards, especially if they are going to be potentially both mentally and physically more powerful than we are - in fact you would have a very hard time being allowed to build them otherwise.
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#3999323 - 08/22/14 12:52 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Ssnake]
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Patrocles
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Not only that ... sometimes I wonder if anyone actually read Asimov's stories. The point of almost every single one was that the robots didn't behave as expected despite these seemingly clever laws, pointing out time and again that even though the robots in his story in no case violated their laws, they would invariably fail the test of real life.
Now the first "protocol" is that a robot may not harm any life form. What about disinfectants, agriculture, disease control? We kill trillions of bacteria every hour, we kill animals to eat, we smash insects on windshields and snails on the road with the tires of our cars - how can a robot be functional in any of these situations and remain functional? Holy pedantic-ism, Batman! is pedantic-ism that even a word? Is a BMW really the ultimate driving machine? Why do they call a structure a 'building' after it has been completed? Is baby shampoo really made out of babies? I tend to think of Asimov's 3 laws of robotics as a starting point or reference for writers. His 3 laws are not carved in stone and any author is free to change/modify/add/delete laws as they choose. For me, i see the trailer focusing more on the fascinating idea of robots becoming sentient and then start modifying other robots to also become sentient?
Animal Mother > Rambo+ChuckNorris
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#3999328 - 08/22/14 12:59 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: PV1]
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Patrocles
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A modified version of the Three Laws. Amazing how those have persisted when it was just a plot device Asimov created to justify having benevolent robots (as most every previous SF story had them like metal versions of Frankenstein's monster).
Do you have a reference for that? It seems far more than a plot device to me; it's a simple rational feature, which helps distinguish sensible stories about possible futures from silly horror stories (I realize that "silly horror stories" is redundant). If you are going to build devices which apparently achieve some sort of consciousness (a very problematic premise, but regardless), then you had better have built in safeguards, especially if they are going to be potentially both mentally and physically more powerful than we are - in fact you would have a very hard time being allowed to build them otherwise. iibc Asimov is credited with putting the 3 laws into code (so to speak) iibc, he got one or two of the laws from another author and i believe the 3 laws were put down in sepearte stories before he brought them together as the 3 laws(?) Yes, it is a plot device. One can move the plot device even further back and, as many of the popular writers and lit teachers point out, there are only two plots to all stories: a stranger comes to town, or a person goes on a journey.
Animal Mother > Rambo+ChuckNorris
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#3999330 - 08/22/14 01:01 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Patrocles]
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PanzerMeyer
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For me, i see the trailer focusing more on the fascinating idea of robots becoming sentient and then start modifying other robots to also become sentient? This happened in the re-imagined BSG where the "old style" cylon centurions had gained enough sentience and thus started to experiment and ultimately created the cylon "skinjobs".
Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 08/22/14 01:14 PM.
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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#3999342 - 08/22/14 01:09 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Patrocles]
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Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
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Yes, it is a plot device. One can move the plot device even further back and, as many of the popular writers and lit teachers point out, there are only two plots to all stories: a stranger comes to town, or a person goes on a journey. You forgot the the third one, used by the Twilight series: people stare at each other. The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#3999363 - 08/22/14 01:36 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Patrocles]
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Recluse
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Interesting old story by Robert Sheckley called Watchbird takes this ultimate compliance with the laws to absurd extents (including the bugs on the windshield thing!). http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/29579
Last edited by Recluse; 08/22/14 01:36 PM.
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#3999447 - 08/22/14 04:45 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Patrocles]
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Ssnake
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Holy pedantic-ism, Batman! is pedantic-ism that even a word? If I've learned anything about computers in the past thirty years (and admittedly it's not much), they are the the embodiment of pedantry. It is only reasonable to assume that robots (=computers that can purposefully interact with the physical world) will be extremely pedantic with everything, and that's quite the point I was trying to make. It's the point that everybody tends to gloss over, and at the same time it's the mountain of sand poured into the gears whenever there's interaction of human brains with machines (not with already compiled computer programs that have all kinds of sanity checks already built in). Assuming robots that can put fuzzy human commands into a situational context just like humans can (and usually will) is about as realistic as it was in the 17th century of dreaming to visit the moon. Yes, eventually engineers made it work, but - certainly not for everyone
- at horrendous costs
- with none of the methods proposed until the late 19th century (magic geese, beanstalks, hot air balloons, big cannons, flying carpets, ...)
Every tale of a magic fairy granting three wishes is a story describing how humans are fundamentally incapable of giving instructions even under the most benevolent conditions that take all the conditions into account (=algorithmic thinking) - but algorithmic thinking is all that computers do (if you even want to call it thinking).
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#3999510 - 08/22/14 07:42 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Patrocles]
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Peally
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We ARE just apes! We have kickass thumbs and over-sized heads though.
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#3999531 - 08/22/14 08:43 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Patrocles]
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Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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You would imagine that the creator of any successful AI will set it make assumptions based on convention as opposed to always interpreting things literally. A robot that rips off its limb and gives it to you when you say "give me a hand" would never make it into production because no one would buy it. What good is a combat robot that throws a blanket on you when you say "cover me"?
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#3999576 - 08/22/14 10:28 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Ssnake]
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Patrocles
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Holy pedantic-ism, Batman! is pedantic-ism that even a word? If I've learned anything about computers in the past thirty years (and admittedly it's not much), they are the the embodiment of pedantry. It is only reasonable to assume that robots (=computers that can purposefully interact with the physical world) will be extremely pedantic with everything, and that's quite the point I was trying to make. It's the point that everybody tends to gloss over, and at the same time it's the mountain of sand poured into the gears whenever there's interaction of human brains with machines (not with already compiled computer programs that have all kinds of sanity checks already built in). Assuming robots that can put fuzzy human commands into a situational context just like humans can (and usually will) is about as realistic as it was in the 17th century of dreaming to visit the moon. Yes, eventually engineers made it work, but - certainly not for everyone
- at horrendous costs
- with none of the methods proposed until the late 19th century (magic geese, beanstalks, hot air balloons, big cannons, flying carpets, ...)
Every tale of a magic fairy granting three wishes is a story describing how humans are fundamentally incapable of giving instructions even under the most benevolent conditions that take all the conditions into account (=algorithmic thinking) - but algorithmic thinking is all that computers do (if you even want to call it thinking). I believe I see where you are coming from. For me it is with all the vampire media being used to tell us what is important about being human stuff.
Animal Mother > Rambo+ChuckNorris
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#3999577 - 08/22/14 10:30 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: PanzerMeyer]
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Patrocles
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Get your hands off me you damn dirty human! LOL! now that is funny!
Animal Mother > Rambo+ChuckNorris
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#3999588 - 08/22/14 11:08 PM
Re: Automata (2014) film
[Re: Patrocles]
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Ssnake
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Arguably that's the only question that counts in literature and other arts: What makes us human?That's more relevant today than ever as we are (at least seemingly) on the technological threshold of actually creating artificial intelligence. This is what makes the new Battlestar Galactica an interesting TV show, it is what drives the second half of the Freefall web comic ( starting from episode 1277; the first half is mildly amusing, the second takes a sharp turn towards topics of relevance). The interesting thing is that the arts have answered the question rather unanimously already - the method of reproduction is irrelevant. If it is self-conscientious and able to enter a dialogue or other form of interaction with humans, it is human (even though I suspect that in reality it will turn out to be quite inhuman and probably fundamentally detached from the way how humans think. We will never be able to truly empathize with robots. They might fake natural responses, but they will never truly be like us. We only wish they would be.
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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