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#3988190 - 07/30/14 06:23 AM Flying without Aids  
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CatKnight Offline
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I didn't want to put this in the DiD thread since this isn't specifically part of the campaign.

I've been running a career during the campaign's time frame as an 'A' flier this week to try and get used to it.

My first mission as flight lead, I..uhm...got lost. We ended up RTBing.

Second mission I botched, because I hit Shift+W so many times my flight leader just led me straight home. Fine.

Third was a railway bombing run. No damage, but as I'm turning for home an aircraft lazily drifts in front of my Strutter's nose out of nowhere. I figure it's one of my flight. Nope. Eindecker. Why he thought it was okay to practice formation flying with me I'll never know.

My flight leader thought we should bomb another rail. I actually lost him on the way there in the clouds, but as I began to give up hope I noticed our top flight and followed them until I regained contact. On the way home he blipped his engine to let everyone catch up. I saw him pass behind my top wing...and then he must have done something I didn't see, for suddenly I was alone. Time to practice navigating home.

Then I used Lou's maps to navigate across half of Flanders and bomb the right aerodrome. I was turning for home when my observer opened up. New Eindecker. He also managed to get close to me, though perhaps not as much as the first guy.

This last mission I was supposed to bomb along the front lines. Just as we entered no man's land I noticed my leader jockeying for position. It took a few seconds, but I saw the faintest hint of yellow far below us. Then our Nieuport escorts dove past me headed down. I joined the fight.

It was easily the most fun I've had in a dogfight. Without the labels it was beautiful watching the planes maneuver. It took me a minute to actually get in the thick of things and chase an Eindecker around until it went down.

Not using the aids adds a lot of uncertainty to the sim, and at first I despised it. Now I don't think I could go back. Navigating with a map is it's own victory, as well as learning to watch your own back rather than relying on 'radar.'

(Of course, I might feel differently if I didn't have a rear gunner keeping me from being surprised TOO badly.)

#3988203 - 07/30/14 08:40 AM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: CatKnight]  
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DukeIronHand Offline
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High over the Front
God bless!
I tried flying with no aids once and it was a hopeless muddle on all counts.
Once we were had a bit of flying in the clouds I was quite lost. Because of my system I have to fly with a terrain setting of "2" which may not help. Ergo I use the TAC display, throw labels on and off (after almost attacking a friendly ballon) etc, etc.

I have flown quite a bit in planes and helicopters and visibility, navigation, and situational awareness, don't seem that tough in
real life so I don't consider the use of aids as a cheat. A computer screen can never replicate real life vision - at least not yet. That's what I tell myself anyway so I can keep my WOFF "man-card"!

#3988251 - 07/30/14 11:37 AM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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corsaire31 Offline
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
I have flown quite a bit in planes and helicopters and visibility, navigation, and situational awareness, don't seem that tough in real life so I don't consider the use of aids as a cheat. A computer screen can never replicate real life vision - at least not yet.


This has been an ongoing debate in the flight sim community for many years ! I am on this side as well and this is why I dropped all aids but I keep the dots set at a reasonable distance.


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Flying in FSX/Air Hauler, Wings over Flanders Fields, Rise of Flight, IL2 1946 Hsfx, Condor soaring.
#3988276 - 07/30/14 01:07 PM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: CatKnight]  
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Hasse Offline
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I also agree that situational awareness is typically much worse in flight sims than in real life. You simply can't see things as well on your monitor as when sitting in a real cockpit. So usually I fly using at least some additional aids.

But sometimes I like to make exceptions, like in the case of the current DID campaign. There's a certain masochistic enjoyment in flying under such difficult conditions. biggrin


"Upon my word I've had as much excitement on a car as in the air, especially since the R.F.C. have had women drivers."

James McCudden, Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps
#3988284 - 07/30/14 01:46 PM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: CatKnight]  
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MFair Offline
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I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" to this topic. To each his own. After flying blind so to speak I am like Catknight, don't think I could go back, but that's just me. We all fly for different reasons, and outcomes. I don't look down on someone who uses aids no more than someone who has a death grip on a saddle horn. If that's the way you are comfortable, more power to you. Just my two cents worth.


Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from either end.
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#3988357 - 07/30/14 03:49 PM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: Hasse]  
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Olham Offline
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Vision and awareness ARE better in real life, than in a sim - okay.
But in real life you'd also be really dead, when getting shot.
Each has it's pros and cons.
I prefer a lesser vision... biggrin

Originally Posted By: Hasse
There's a certain masochistic enjoyment in flying under such difficult conditions. biggrin

Isn't there, Hasse? biggrin


Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club)
Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
#3988372 - 07/30/14 04:19 PM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: CatKnight]  
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.

Or to paraphrase U2: "Surprise me, thrill me, shoot me, kill me.

.


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#3988389 - 07/30/14 05:02 PM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: CatKnight]  
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KodiakJac Offline
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I try to set up my aids in flight sims where I would probably see things IRL (around the 2 to 3 mile range in the pre-radar flight sims).


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#3988718 - 07/31/14 04:26 AM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: CatKnight]  
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RamblingSid Offline
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I didn't use aids in OFF, it was a gradual process.

The same thing seems to be happening in WOFF.
But because WOFF is a more dangerous environment,
it is going to take longer...much longer.

Just using the TAC at the mo, so far so unnerving.

RS

#3988748 - 07/31/14 07:49 AM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: KodiakJac]  
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DukeIronHand Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bucksnort
I try to set up my aids in flight sims where I would probably see things IRL (around the 2 to 3 mile range in the pre-radar flight sims).


Exactly!

#3989197 - 08/01/14 04:53 AM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: CatKnight]  
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77_Scout Online content
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Originally Posted By: CatKnight
Not using the aids adds a lot of uncertainty to the sim


This is exactly the attraction for me. I want to be surprised, I want to be frightened. With aids on you will never have those experiences (boring!).

I am a bit skeptical about a WW1 plane being visible at 3 miles. A WW2 plane certainly was, but a WW1 plane is half the size of that. Contemporary accounts are rife with talk of how hard it was to see other planes.

I always consider oily goggles, freezing conditions, and a 100 mph wind in my face before thinking situational awareness in an actual plane was way better than using a nice clear computer monitor in a cozy house.

#3989204 - 08/01/14 05:46 AM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: 77_Scout]  
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KodiakJac Offline
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Originally Posted By: 77_Scout
Originally Posted By: CatKnight
Not using the aids adds a lot of uncertainty to the sim


This is exactly the attraction for me. I want to be surprised, I want to be frightened. With aids on you will never have those experiences (boring!).

I am a bit skeptical about a WW1 plane being visible at 3 miles. A WW2 plane certainly was, but a WW1 plane is half the size of that. Contemporary accounts are rife with talk of how hard it was to see other planes.

I always consider oily goggles, freezing conditions, and a 100 mph wind in my face before thinking situational awareness in an actual plane was way better than using a nice clear computer monitor in a cozy house.


How about when you want to sneak up on the AI? smile2

I agree a single WWI plane would probably be unseen at 3 miles. In the book "The Ace Factor" by Mike Spick he writes that 1-2 miles was the max distance for a single plane to usually be seen in WWI, but that formations could be seen up to 3-4 miles. But then that's just his opinion based on what he has read. If I'm in a 2-seater I often turn off aids as I like to be surprised like you. When I'm hunting I turn them on or I'd never find a fight!


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#3989227 - 08/01/14 08:47 AM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: CatKnight]  
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corsaire31 Offline
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It would be absolutely fair if the AI planes were not "seeing" you at longer distances. It is often that my flight leader turns to engage planes when I don't even see the dots which are set at 3000m in my game (and 3000m is only 1.6 nm)


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Flying in FSX/Air Hauler, Wings over Flanders Fields, Rise of Flight, IL2 1946 Hsfx, Condor soaring.
#3989231 - 08/01/14 09:07 AM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: CatKnight]  
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Olham Offline
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I checked that out on a clear day, with labels as "dots", set on 4000 Meter.
If I remember right, the aircraft specs were visible a bit earlier than the dots appeared.
So they are visible at 4000 m.
But (!) the devs have "installed" layers of haze, depending on the weather situation.
And you can have it, that the aircraft as well as the labels or dots won't be visible,
before the enemy is MUCH closer!
In the worst case, they are directly behind and above you, and you didn't see them coming.

I also found, that they don't seem to "see" us, when there is a haze or clouds.
I could sneak up on E/A several times, and they only "saw" me, when I was at strike range.


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#3989340 - 08/01/14 03:07 PM Re: Flying without Aids [Re: CatKnight]  
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Britisheh Offline
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Hi there,

From "Flying Fury" and a few others, weather certainly had an impact for the flyers, and the "Archie"/Flack gunners. Still, on the ground with aircraft at 20,000' and being spotted ( albeit binoculars helped) and McCudden spotting aircraft up to 2 miles away, I think the best way to even out the AI advantage is first, have clouds on MAX. Second, to use Trac IR. In addition, I would mount the TAC so half of it was showing, to the rear. In the sim, your rear guard may not let you know there's an issue, and having the TAC mounted so, forces one to scan ahead. The TAC would be set at 1 mile, which is reasonable given the games parameters.

At the end of the day, it certainly is personal choice. For me, the above gave me a fighting chance, given the fact a few other things are thrown into the mix too dizzy

Cheers,

Britisheh


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