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#3987339 - 07/28/14 06:55 PM Pilots please check in on this for me  
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Father killed, daughter injured when small plane crash-lands on Florida beach

Quote:
But hours later, Irizarry, 36 was killed during a freak plane crash on a Florida Gulf Coast beach near Sarasota, where they were celebrating their anniversary. The couple's daughter, 9-year-old Oceana, was critically injured.

The 1972 Piper Cherokee lost a wheel, damaged a wing and smashed its propeller shortly after making a distress call about 2:45 p.m. Sunday to Venice Municipal Airport, officials said. The plane crash-landed on Caspersen Beach, just south of the airport, at the southern tip of the island of Venice.


wouldn't the smart thing to do when people are walking on the beach is to put in down in the water instead of trying to land on the beach? I can't believe he tried putting it down with people walking and their backs were to him. Unless his windshield was covered with oil and he couldn't see out the front, to me this is pretty inexcusable... Hope they take his license away...


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#3987343 - 07/28/14 07:01 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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Too little information to make a call on this. But, generally you should not endanger others . If the choice is you or others, you put yourself at risk.

Water landings are much more dangerous than you think. They almost always go badly.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#3987355 - 07/28/14 07:30 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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Yep, lt can be tough to fit through the little pilot window if the door jams on ditching.

#3987361 - 07/28/14 07:37 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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Fixed gear planes have a tendency to flip when ditching plus Pipers are hardly the easiest planes to get in and out normally let alone upside down and underwater, so a water landing would be pretty undesirable. We will need more information to know if a beach landing was the best course available.

#3987362 - 07/28/14 07:39 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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Wow, what a tragedy for that family. frown


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#3987372 - 07/28/14 08:01 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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Tragic.


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#3987374 - 07/28/14 08:05 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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There was an update on my news feed that indicated the daughter has passed as well from her injuries.


Seems no flight plan is on FlightAware for his tail number?

Last edited by SkateZilla; 07/28/14 08:09 PM.

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#3987381 - 07/28/14 08:19 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: SkateZilla]  
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It's very sad. I've thought about it when I was flying, since I flew over the coast very often. Especially since the coastline around here is mostly mountains/hills that turn into cliffs that turn into rocky water. If I was to ever have to execute a forced landing in those areas, only option would be one of a very few fields that are large and flat enough or a beach that isn't too sheltered by cliffs.

I would imagine in that sort of situation that it would be very hard to properly assess if there's anyone down on the beach where you intend to land until it's almost too late. Even if it looks clear up until the last minute, someone could decide to sprint from their blanket down to the water and cut right in front of you... And, as OG pointed out, you could be trying to decide between a high probability of killing yourself and you passenger(s) (who's life you are responsible for) or the lower probability of someone on the beach not seeing you coming in.

It's a lot to process and make a call in a matter of seconds. The most stressful seconds of your life, I might add.

Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
...
Seems no flight plan is on FlightAware for his tail number?


It is not uncommon for small GA aircraft to not file flight plans for VFR flights. I never really did, since I knew I'd be using flight following and in contact with ATC the entire time.

Last edited by malibu43; 07/28/14 08:24 PM.

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#3987386 - 07/28/14 08:26 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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Witnesses were claiming he came in quiet (with no engine)


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#3987395 - 07/28/14 08:53 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Originally Posted By: oldgrognard
Too little information to make a call on this. But, generally you should not endanger others . If the choice is you or others, you put yourself at risk.

Water landings are much more dangerous than you think. They almost always go badly.


Oh I know a water landing would probably kill them from the sudden stop. My brother worked US Customs down in the keys and has told me about more than one dead body they've pulled out from down there...

But my thoughts were like yours, you don't endanger others.

from the pics they showed on the news last night, the beach front wasn't more than 50 ft wide.

Last edited by Top Gun; 07/28/14 08:55 PM. Reason: added line
#3987400 - 07/28/14 09:01 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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Originally Posted By: Top Gun
Originally Posted By: oldgrognard
Too little information to make a call on this. But, generally you should not endanger others . If the choice is you or others, you put yourself at risk.

Water landings are much more dangerous than you think. They almost always go badly.


Oh I know a water landing would probably kill them from the sudden stop. My brother worked US Customs down in the keys and has told me about more than one dead body they've pulled out from down there...

But my thoughts were like yours, you don't endanger others.


The thing to keep in mind is that "others" includes the passengers on your plane. You have a responsibility to keep them safe as well. It is up to the PIC to weight the dangers of each option. I'll be honest: if it was my wife and son in the plane with me, I'd probably take my chances on the beach rather than try to attempt to ditch.

If you were driving down a 2 lane mountain highway, needed to stop suddenly, but realized you couldn't, would you take your chances rear ending the two motor cycles in front of you or drive your whole family off of a cliff?

All I'm saying is that we don't really know enough to say the pilot did the wrong thing. And even if he did, I'm not going to bad mouth him for it, because we all have a drive for self preservation, and I may have made the same call.


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#3987404 - 07/28/14 09:13 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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Yeah, "the pilot had not filed a flight plan" is kind of a red herring. I defer to the real pilots on here, though.


Hi, I'm Larry and this my brother Dayrle, and this is my other brother Dayrle.
#3987407 - 07/28/14 09:31 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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Didnt someone lying on beach almost get ran over by a Cessna doing an emergency landing a few months back?

thing you gotta ask yourself, so many witnesses on the beach, why didn't anyone yell "Lookout!".. "heads up" or anything to warn the father and daughter.


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#3987408 - 07/28/14 09:31 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Originally Posted By: Li'lJugs
Yeah, "the pilot had not filed a flight plan" is kind of a red herring. I defer to the real pilots on here, though.


Flight plans are one of those things that the media love to talk about, because they sound important. But the reality is that a filed flight plan doesn't mean much. It is just your N number, your starting airport, destination, and the time you expect to arrive. If you don't cancel your flight plan within 30 minutes of you planned arrival time, they start looking for you. Basically it just ensures that someone realizes you're missing if you don't arrive on time. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with how much the pilot actually planned his flight. Route selection, weight and balance, fuel, weather, suitability of aircraft, etc... is what flight planning is all about, but is not included in the "Flight Plan" that gets filed.

Last edited by malibu43; 07/28/14 09:31 PM.

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#3987443 - 07/28/14 11:02 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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What Mailbu said.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#3987870 - 07/29/14 05:04 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: malibu43]  
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Originally Posted By: malibu43
Originally Posted By: Top Gun
Originally Posted By: oldgrognard
Too little information to make a call on this. But, generally you should not endanger others . If the choice is you or others, you put yourself at risk.

Water landings are much more dangerous than you think. They almost always go badly.


Oh I know a water landing would probably kill them from the sudden stop. My brother worked US Customs down in the keys and has told me about more than one dead body they've pulled out from down there...

But my thoughts were like yours, you don't endanger others.


The thing to keep in mind is that "others" includes the passengers on your plane. You have a responsibility to keep them safe as well. It is up to the PIC to weight the dangers of each option. I'll be honest: if it was my wife and son in the plane with me, I'd probably take my chances on the beach rather than try to attempt to ditch.

If you were driving down a 2 lane mountain highway, needed to stop suddenly, but realized you couldn't, would you take your chances rear ending the two motor cycles in front of you or drive your whole family off of a cliff?

All I'm saying is that we don't really know enough to say the pilot did the wrong thing. And even if he did, I'm not going to bad mouth him for it, because we all have a drive for self preservation, and I may have made the same call.


very good points here Malibu, when I have my kids in my car I'm putting their lives ahead of anyone else on the road.

#3987895 - 07/29/14 05:27 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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Avoiding populated areas and people on the ground during an emergency landing is something taught.

In this case I'd have to assume he didn't see the people. There's a lot going through someones mind when having to reach and hold best glide speed, go through a restart and then shutdown flow, all while flying an approach trying to hit your spot because there is no go around. He was likely having to slip it in as well, yet another thing to focus on. It's hard enough to hit your spot with power on a runway, much less in this situation.

I'd guess he just made a mistake. Landing in water is taught as a last resort because fixed gear planes flip and a lot of people drown before getting out.

I think it was probably a lapse in judgement to attempt a populated beach landing but I don't know the area and what other options he might of had.

#3987947 - 07/29/14 06:58 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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As I said, not enough info. I don't know which runway he took off from. That means I have no idea what altitude he was at when he had the emergency. Take a look at this. You can size and move to see more.

https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=27.071611111,-82.440333333&t=h&z=16


If he was taking off from runway 22 (southwest - toward the water) , he may have only had a couple hundred feet. No time for anything fancy. The rule is - straight ahead with only a small deviation. General rule is no more than 30 degree heading change. Straight ahead and look for the best spot. Avoid endangering other people. If this happened on climb out, he was nose high initially and couldn't see the ground. So it is not until he got in a nose down attitude that he could see the ground. Holding the best glide speed and angle means the nose obscures what is in front and below. He very well have not even seen the exact landing point and was using peripheral vision and applying general layout of the beach. As he is nearer touchdown, he is also in a nose high attitude and can't see the ground in front of him. This is true during a normal landing. You are looking far ahead for bearing and using peripheral vision and side glances to know your runway. So he may never have seen people on the beach. He would have known there were people on the beach, but had no idea where or how many. And that bothers me. He may not have known how many people he was endangering.

Or if he took off on runway 31 (northwest) he had housing ahead and to the right. The beach was his only choice. So in that case he may consciously have been making the choice of least bad. Since the plane is faced north, I would guess that was what happened. Runway 31, emergency, very low altitude, so crash straight ahead with only small deviation, housing ahead, housing to the right, beach slightly to the left, made decision not to put it into housing, went for beach, as I said about being able to see, and ....

or in either case do a water landing which is always a bad outcome.

Real bad situation and outcome.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#3987979 - 07/29/14 07:38 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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that's where the flight aware track data would have been nice to have


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#3987980 - 07/29/14 07:39 PM Re: Pilots please check in on this for me [Re: Top Gun]  
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I'm sure the lawsuits will be coming soon enough whether justified or not justified.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/29/14 07:39 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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