#3981621 - 07/16/14 10:35 AM
Re: FW 190 D-9 Dora Due August
[Re: Murphy]
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 875
Fridge
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Fredericton, NB, Canada
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Boom and Zoom?
Wouldn't that be a, 'dog fight'? You could almost describe that as a vertical turn fight but that's not quite true. I would still consider BnZ a dog fight.
Fridge ---------- Things which do you no good in aviation: 1) Altitude above you; 2) Runway behind you; 3) Fuel in the truck; 4) The airspeed you don't have.
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#3982548 - 07/18/14 01:55 AM
Re: FW 190 D-9 Dora Due August
[Re: Murphy]
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,147
Gambit21
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Member
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Pacific Northwest
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Boom and Zoom?
Wouldn't that be a, 'dog fight'?
Yes
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#3982658 - 07/18/14 12:25 PM
Re: FW 190 D-9 Dora Due August
[Re: Taxman]
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 875
Fridge
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Fredericton, NB, Canada
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a suprise attack verses a slug/skill match of sorts Here's the thing: boom and zoom is a type of vertical dog fight. A horizontal turning fight, one or two circle is no different, just in it's orientation and the application of the specific advantages one airframe has over the other. Same as in a vertical fight. Getting into a horizontal turn fight, <good turning airframe> versus <bad turning airframe> is a bad idea for the <bad turning airframe> and skill is (probably) not going to save you. Getting into a vertical 'turn' fight, <good BnZ airframe> versus <bad BnZ airframe> is a bad idea for the <bad BnZ airframe> and skill (probably) is not going to save you. Getting jumped, on the other hand, is not a Boom and Zoom fight. It's getting jumped. Some airframes have characteristics that give it a Boom and Zoom advantage over another, but change the match-up and that advantage goes away and the fight has to change because of it. Getting jumped by a hurricane while you are in a 109 is not going to stay a Boom and Zoom fight as the Hurricane does not have the necessary advantages it needs; it can't keep the fight vertical. Swap that around and get jumped by a P-51 while you are in a 109 and depending on the model of 109, the fight can, maybe, stay in the vertical. I would argue that although it may fit the words, someone zooming in on you from a serious height advantage is not a Boom and Zoom fight but just being bounced. If you turn smartly against such an attacker, you can draw them down and out of their energy advantaged position into one of skill and airframe capabilities. Maybe it's just my definition of Boom and Zoom versus that of someone else. Of course, I have read other texts that refuse the label of Boom and Zoom and prefer an energy fight. So maybe we are talking apples/oranges.
Fridge ---------- Things which do you no good in aviation: 1) Altitude above you; 2) Runway behind you; 3) Fuel in the truck; 4) The airspeed you don't have.
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#3982661 - 07/18/14 12:52 PM
Re: FW 190 D-9 Dora Due August
[Re: Taxman]
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 19,381
Ajay
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cool..i was hoping for interesting, and your comment is To me a bnz is a bounce, so yes, correct, but it isn't a dog fight. Even if your 'customer' is aware and breaks as you pull into the firing position, unless the bouncee has absolute major advantage in either airframe and skill then you simply z again and retain the height and thus energy to re-engage at will. Like a shark circling it's prey, you can choose to either disengage or continue with the much greater height/energy advantage. Unless you are in a lysander or stork for instance then the comparative difference in fighters of the same period at such a height advantage rules out the many hundreds and at least a thousand feet below the bouncee will be when you zoom again. What i am on about is the pure/standard dogfight..the one on one at level pegging, similar heights, eyeing each other up then engaging is a huge difference to a bnz or bounce. If one bnz's then misses and decides to turn it into a horizontal then they are throwing away a huge advantage in speed regardless if the the lower plane can climb or turn quicker, it cannot climb quicker from a level flight breakaway down at 300 plus mph than say a fighter spewing down on it at 450 plus mph and hope to catch it...unless the bouncer is incompetent or throws away his advantage of speed. Getting drawn down into a turn/dog fight when you don't need to just go against the rules when you have the superior height advantage
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#3983350 - 07/20/14 02:25 AM
Re: FW 190 D-9 Dora Due August
[Re: Ajay]
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,147
Gambit21
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Pacific Northwest
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Boom n Zoom..dog fight ? i would say it's more a hit and run myself. Wouldn't matter what plane either. You could bnz a p51 D in a clapped out old 190 A2 and retain the energy while old mate is wondering what hit him. Dogfight and bnz are two different things..more like a suprise attack verses a slug/skill match of sorts. In my opinion... If you keep coming back yes it's still a dogfight. If you make one pass and keep going, then no because you didn't say and fight. Just because you're using energy tactics doesn't mean you're not dog fighting - the term makes no allowances for that unless you try and change the original meaning of the word. Good to see you around still
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#3983374 - 07/20/14 03:38 AM
Re: FW 190 D-9 Dora Due August
[Re: Gambit21]
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 19,381
Ajay
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Boom n Zoom..dog fight ? i would say it's more a hit and run myself. Wouldn't matter what plane either. You could bnz a p51 D in a clapped out old 190 A2 and retain the energy while old mate is wondering what hit him. Dogfight and bnz are two different things..more like a suprise attack verses a slug/skill match of sorts. In my opinion... If you keep coming back yes it's still a dogfight. If you make one pass and keep going, then no because you didn't say and fight. Just because you're using energy tactics doesn't mean you're not dog fighting - the term makes no allowances for that unless you try and change the original meaning of the word. Good to see you around still Hey Gambit, good to see you mate I am probably leaning more on my tactics i suppose which i don't consider a dogfight as i can end up on the wrong side of the guns too easily. I prefer patience and height and wearing them down over going in all fists of fury and whites of the eyes close up fighting to the death
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#3985726 - 07/25/14 01:47 AM
Re: FW 190 D-9 Dora Due August
[Re: Gambit21]
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 490
NineLine
ED Community Manager
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ED Community Manager
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Yup, and if you download DCS World now, you can try the TF-51D for free Nevada is due out later on this year sometime after 2.0.0 is released. I hear ya. I fly like that too sometimes - just depends on which bird I'm in and if I'm outnumbered or not.
I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Dora - will my first DCS purchase. So I gather I just download the free DCS world first, and then Dora when it's available and I'll be set. At least that's my understanding. I'll be flying over Crimea or Nevada for now which isn't too exciting, but I'm choosing to have faith that the theater as a whole will be delivered. Has the Nevada map been released yet? I haven't been keeping track of DCS.
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#3986918 - 07/27/14 11:35 PM
Re: FW 190 D-9 Dora Due August
[Re: Taxman]
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,503
Pooch
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Orlando, FL
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Just to make something clearer, the A model Focke-Wulfs were not designed as fighter bombers. Someone reading that might misunderstand. It was designed to counter the Spitfire, which it did quite well until the Mark 9 Spit showed up and ruined its party.
"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace." Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia
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#3990847 - 08/05/14 12:39 AM
Re: FW 190 D-9 Dora Due August
[Re: Taxman]
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,042
cichlidfan
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ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1
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#3990993 - 08/05/14 11:05 AM
Re: FW 190 D-9 Dora Due August
[Re: Taxman]
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,764
Weaponz248
Hail To The King Baby!!
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Hail To The King Baby!!
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Posts: 2,764
Statesboro GA USA
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Well it could be worse......Also you can still get it for 39.99 USD instead of 49.99 USD, So there's that.
XBOX Live Tag/Steam/PSN: Weaponz248
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