And oh, before the fanboi accusations start, I'm not really flying DCS at the moment. Too fed up with the bugs and its overall incompleteness, y'see. It's just that WHEN it works it works beautifully...

You know a couple of months ago I expressed my concern about the project and was promptly called an Idiot on these forums. As much as I hate the fact that there is going to be a delay; however i think in the long run Luthier leaving the scene will be good for the sim.

Oh, definitely. The man had his last chance and blew it. A downside, however, is that no-one knows if this will delay, say, ED finally getting out of their perpetual beta mode and stabilizing the platform... instead of swat a bug, create two, as it has been lately

You were? I don't remember that, but if so it must've been by people who'd backed with a non-trivial amount of money and were desperate for you to be wrong.



The Jedi Master

This is very true. Can you imagine how many lines of code it took to write the functions of the ABRIS in the Ka-50 or the CDU in the A-10C? I mean..these are faithful replications of extremely complex systems. Definitely apples and oranges. And its OK to like apples and oranges by the way.

BeachAV8R

I hadn't bought into this.

For one reason, I'm not interested in WWII flyables in DCS World and for the second reason, I never had any faith in anything they did after CLoD. Exact same reason why I never jumped on BoS

I don't understand how the secrecy can stand. Why are people not entitled transparency here? People paid their money, in good faith, to a Kickstarter project and it's goals (or pledges) were changed (where they not?) and then the head development team (at least him) involved in the kickstarter project has left/been booted.

This is a complete kick in the baws for Kickstarter - especially with no transparency on what's gone wrong. How are people meant to go onto further Kickstarter projects knowing that the goals can change during it's process and then the thing crumble - regardless of whether someone else has picked it up or not, I think if you don't come clean on what's happened, it makes it likely unfeasible to expect people to pledge in the future.

I'll be steering way WAY clear of Kickstarter. From now on money will be released from my wallet when a product is available - and not before.

BoS and DCS WWII were never to be done by the same group, so how do they relate?



The Jedi Master

Gess you are not familiar with the A-10A, F-15C, Mig-29, Su-25, Su-25T, Su-27 and Su-33 then?
Of course a DCS level aircraft (A-10C, KA-50, P-51,etc) take a longer time to make, the point was it all comes down to man hours. A Study level aircraft takes a huge amount of hours to make but a survey level aircraft with high detail and advanced flight model is no easy task eighter and takes a great deal many hours as ED has shown us with the few updates they've released for FC3 aircraft. It is however wrong to assume this aircraft are arcade level.
Man hour are man hours if you want to call yours orange hours is up to you.

Really the only thing that has changed is luthier is out...Please remember that this project/and rewards was 100% DEC internally funded(and so remains), and that the base KS campaign was meant for the extended testing of the finished game...per the description during KS effort

I never saw that about the KS funding. The description of how funds would be distributed included office chairs and utilities for Ilya's staff. Research, too, I think, and I'm pretty sure the rest was supposed to pay the staff for their time. Otherwise, why did Ilya go through all the hoops of tiers and promising that the Me262 and B-17 would be made flyable if certain dollar amounts were reached?

The base KS dollar amount goal was to be used for extended testing, higher goals reached would be used for extra aircraft or larger map, depending on the goal reached...you could reread/listen to all of that said by luthier and Igor Tishin, its still there

The original $100,000 was supposed to cover an extended beta/polish phase. That was made clear in the initial pitch.

Anything above that was supposed to cover stretch goals (e.g. the Me.262), but the numbers quoted never really lined up the production realities. Matt Wagner recently posted that the Me-109 flight model alone cost upwards of $120,000 USD, so $58,000 for an entire new aircraft was always going to be extremely wishful thinking.

...and since study sim modules need much more time to develop than FC3 / BoS level aircraft, I will. But yeah, OK, I promise not to call survey level AC "gamish" or "arcade" anymore, since it seems to offend your finer sensibilities

OK, I have that beautiful DCS:P-51, with all those systems modeled, but after initial hours of joy now I have NOTHING to DO with her.

That's my experience too, so I don't get this idea of releasing all the aircraft as modules, and releasing the map/game last. Sure, if that's all they can do because for some reason they only have the people to do the aircraft, not the map, or they are nearly finished nost of the kites, and they need less cash, but faster...

But the number of people who will just buy 6 aircraft without a game attached, MUST be dramatically lower than those who would buy a game with 2 aircraft. Oh well, it's their business to run!

On the other hand, I am just grateful ED didn't totally walk away from this mess, and that there is still a chance for another big WWII sim title to emerge eventually!

H

I think this could change when they release EDGE and the Nevada map which I expect to become quite a step forward. I look forward to flying those planes over one of the most stunning flying environments on the planet.

Would be great if they'd focus on building great planes and open map and WWII ground equipment making to third parties, maybe that way we would get both faster.

MAC

What, no use for the Stang yet? Bah. You bloody reprobates have no imagination. I made a bunch of missions when it originally came out where you fly old VVS Lend-Lease P-51Ds as an insurgent against light Georgian ground forces; worked like a C.P. I'm telling ya

Pardon me if I've misunderstood something, but didn't you just state above that they should release completely modelled AFM/PFM birds for $25 apiece? And if so, where do you think that would leave them (without a paddle) businesswise?

Nah, as I said release the FW with a comprehensive map & AI pack for $50 and then sell other new flyables for $50 each. Also, put the Stang on offer for $25 or something.

Well, you are applying a mindset to something I think (hope) that ED is perhaps no longer ascribing to. People are still getting hung up on looking at DCS World as a combat flight simulator with all of the attributes that have historically defined the genre (aircraft, campaign, missions). Instead, you have to look at DCS as a *possible* eventual replacement product (or at least coexisting) for something like FSX.

For example - people point to the lack of a realistic combat environment in which to fly the P-51.

Now look at FSX and the number of high quality, extremely detailed WWII add-ons that are flourishing in that marketplace: An incomplete LIST

So you have droves of people that like to buy modules just for the enjoyment of learning and using the realistic systems, even if they never pull a trigger in anger or fly any kind of combat mission. With the advantages of the advanced flight model that ED seems to have come up with, there are a few advantages to moving to DCS World. The disadvantages are clear too - FSX has world scenery coverage, add-on weather products, etc.. But just because someone else HAS done it, doesn't mean that ED can't make inroads there.

Personally, I have very little interest in flying P-51s or Bf-109s or Spitfires in DCS World, FSX, BoB, IL-2, or any other sim simply because that isn't the time period I'm interested in (bring on the F/A-18C please..uh..and an Apache). But just because the (realistic) world to fly it in will come later doesn't mean they can't go with building the things they already know how to build (airplane modules). With the mention of tanks and ships - I think DCS World is planning on being much larger than what most of us have in our aviation/military sim specific minds.

TL;DR - DCS World isn't just for us here at SimHQ - there is a much broader audience that these products will appeal to.



BeachAV8R

+several million for Beachav8r...