Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#3960724 - 05/31/14 03:22 PM Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
jenrick Offline
Member
jenrick  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
Is dogfighting still something applicable in the era of 5th generation fighters?

I've been doing a bunch of reading lately, and it seems as though the split between 4th and 5th generation aircraft is that a 5th generation shouldn't be in a dogfight. Now some of this seems to be based on exactly whose definition you use as Lockheed-Martin of course trumpeting all aspect stealth as the key component. Others seem to focus more on performance features and multi-plane data sharing.

Regardless though, a lot of the literature and talking/writing heads seem to indicate that 5th generation fighters shouldn't worry too much about dogfight capability. They'll have shot the enemy down, long before they are detected and as such should never be in danger of a close range fight. Didn't we try this about 50 years ago in Vietnam? For that matter reading about the Gulf War and Kosovo, with much improved IFF and radars, there were still plenty of issues preventing free-for-all BVR engagements like many picture.

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the USAF's entries into the 5th generation field of the F-22 and F-35. Some indicates that the F-22 is a superlative aircraft in all areas against all comers, while other data indicates that it is only on par if not sub-par with 4th and 4.5 generation aircraft in WVR combat. From what I know (which as a non-military member is certainly not much), I'm readily willing to say that that F-22 is probably superb in the BVR arena due to it's stealth and avionics. I'm also willing to say that it probably superb in the WVR arena against early 4th generation aircraft. The delta in terms of technology and design expertise is massive at this point. But what about against later 4th/4.5 generation aircraft, and current 5th generation aircraft that appear to place more emphasis on close range combat?

So my question to the SimHQ brain trust - Is a capability to dominate (not just achieve parity) the within visual range engagement a necessity for a 5th generation fighter? Or has technology finally advanced to the point to where the extended engagement will reduce the dogfight to a statistical anomaly?

-Jenrick

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3960732 - 05/31/14 03:45 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 461
Lord Flashheart Offline
Member
Lord Flashheart  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 461
London, UK
I think if you find yourself in a close-in knifefight with the other guy in the days of BVRAAM missiles - something has gone seriously wrong.

That's not to say that all fighter pilots don't train for it, and look forward to a guns kill in friendly jousting in ACM, but as exercises have shown, once you get into the visual arena, all bets are off and it comes down to the best pilot able to manage their aircraft, rather than the technology. F-22s have been 'shot' down by Eurofighters, Growlers in exercises when their pilots got sloppy.

So is the WVR dogfight extinct? is an interesting question. Last (publically admitted) pure RAF kill (RAF pilot in RAF plane was 1948!)- last USAF/NATO a-a kills 1999. The most recent air combat has been this year - when a Turkish F-16 shot down a MiG-23, otherwise the last few have been manned fighters vs UAVs.

More time now separates us from Vietnam than Vietnam pilots from the second world war. So it may be entirely possible that 'missile age' air combat, which was arguably immature in Vietnam, is now refined enough that BVR now becomes dominant in any future clash.

Ranged against that is that unless it is as WW3 and peer vs peer all-out war, rules of engagement may mean that although your missiles can certainly reach out and touch further - neutral and allied aircraft in the conflict zone may mean you might have get closer to get a positive ID. Or - you might expend all your BVR AAMs and find your line of retreat blocked by a smart enemy and have to engage in WVR fight.

What I do know, is that no fighter pilot these days is going to be racking up any Hartmann-style 300+ kills in the future...


There's nothing cushy about life in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps!
#3960775 - 05/31/14 05:18 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,477
HomeFries Offline
Air Dominance Project
HomeFries  Offline
Air Dominance Project
Member

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,477
It comes down to relative capability.

It's not that 5th gen western fighters can't fight WVR, or shouldn't fight WVR. It's that they are much better at BVR than their competition, so that's where they should drive the fight. Analogy: if your football team has Peyton Manning and is going against a weak secondary, then even with a decent running back your strategy will still be to throw the ball. Nothing against your running back, but when you have an opportunity to pit strength against weakness you exploit it.

Like Lord Flashheart said, if you find yourself WVR with AMRAAM on your wings, then you've done something wrong.

Finally, even if your plane excels WVR, dogfights take time, burn fuel, and suck away your energy (both altitude and airspeed), leaving you as easy pickings for the next bunch of bad guys who drop by. Therefore, the incentive to get involved in a WVR fight is proportional to your proximity to friendly territory.


-Home Fries

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
- Robert A. Heinlein

The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

#3960903 - 05/31/14 11:57 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
jenrick Offline
Member
jenrick  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Ranged against that is that unless it is as WW3 and peer vs peer all-out war, rules of engagement may mean that although your missiles can certainly reach out and touch further - neutral and allied aircraft in the conflict zone may mean you might have get closer to get a positive ID. Or - you might expend all your BVR AAMs and find your line of retreat blocked by a smart enemy and have to engage in WVR fight.


This is my main concern here. Ideally you have Manning under center throwing touchdowns left and right if you will. However if the ref walks onto the field and says the new rules are that you have can only throw the ball 5 yards, and then only to 1 side of the field and only when defending the south end zone, now what? We haven't been in a declared free-fire war since probably Korea? All it takes is one blue-on-blue or blue-on-neutral and we'll be back in eyes on required to engage.

Also all it takes is a technological advancement in detection technology and suddenly stealth may be back to wear it was in WW2. It seems like we're putting all the eggs into the basket of stealthy long range combat.

I would say that it behooves any generation of fighter to strive for the ability to counter at least it's own generation of fighters in close combat. There are hundreds of reasons why a fighter might end up having to engage in WVR combat with another fighter, and giving up that ability or marginalizing seems to be a bad plan. If it all works great at long distance, awesome, but if it doesn't what else do we have?

-Jenrick

#3960994 - 06/01/14 04:13 AM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
All fighters are built to fight in the WVR arena. Some better than others, depending on their exact role.

Originally Posted By: jenrick
I would say that it behooves any generation of fighter to strive for the ability to counter at least it's own generation of fighters in close combat. There are hundreds of reasons why a fighter might end up having to engage in WVR combat with another fighter, and giving up that ability or marginalizing seems to be a bad plan. If it all works great at long distance, awesome, but if it doesn't what else do we have?


--
44th VFW
#3961144 - 06/01/14 03:27 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
jenrick Offline
Member
jenrick  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
All fighters are built to fight in the WVR arena. Some better than others, depending on their exact role.


Yes by definition a "fighter" is going to have some capability in WVR. My question is should the 5th generation push to dominate the WVR arena, or is that only an ancillary to the BVR fight which is now the main issue?

My personal opinion is that we're ceding too much if we don't consider WVR to be a crucial portion of the 5th generation fighters mission.

-Jenrick

#3961204 - 06/01/14 06:15 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster Offline
Member
MigBuster  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
UK
Both F-35/22 can dominate in WVR if they wish and the F-35 does push it further - but it's in an unconventional manner...........


'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
#3961226 - 06/01/14 06:57 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4
INTJ_Mastermind Offline
Junior Member
INTJ_Mastermind  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4
As 5th generation stealth technology becomes more widespread among the USAF's rivals, it's more likely that BVR will become an ancillary technique for dealing with obsolete opponents and WVR dogfights will be the primary mode of combat between 5th gen fighters. As IR masking improves, I foresee a return of the gun as the primary air to air weapon.

#3961316 - 06/01/14 11:15 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
I don't understand the question/problem

The F-22 is a pure air dominance fighter, and it's WVR capability is simply amazing.

The F-35 is a Strike Fighter, and it's WVR capability is average-ish in terms of kinematics, but superior/amazing in the situational awareness arena.

Requirements are driven by the aircraft's major role, so I am having some trouble understanding what you want to discuss.

Originally Posted By: jenrick
Yes by definition a "fighter" is going to have some capability in WVR. My question is should the 5th generation push to dominate the WVR arena, or is that only an ancillary to the BVR fight which is now the main issue?

My personal opinion is that we're ceding too much if we don't consider WVR to be a crucial portion of the 5th generation fighters mission.


--
44th VFW
#3962953 - 06/05/14 12:08 AM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
jenrick Offline
Member
jenrick  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
The F-22 is a pure air dominance fighter, and it's WVR capability is simply amazing.

The F-35 is a Strike Fighter, and it's WVR capability is average-ish in terms of kinematics, but superior/amazing in the situational awareness arena.


My question is based on several reports/news stories regarding the F-22 and F-35 and their apparent less then amazing WVR capabilities versus fighters like the Rafale, the Eurofighter, etc (all of which are arguably 4.5 fighters rather then 5th if we stipulate stealth as a requirement for 5.) I have no doubt that the F-22 and F-35 can mop the floor with 4th generation and previous fighters, as well they should. However both seem to be designed to be stealthy even if it costs them WVR combat capability. This would appear to be a particularly big problem against aircraft that instead choose to disregard stealth as a primary imperative and instead focused on WVR capabilities. Stealth does no good in the close in dog fight particularly since almost every fighter out now currently has some form of IRST that is capable of locking on out to almost BVR range it seems.

My question is was this a smart idea? Is the stealth advantage so telling that it makes sense to give up the WVR fight?

-Jenrick

#3963341 - 06/05/14 08:22 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster Offline
Member
MigBuster  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
UK
No evidence either give up the WVR fight - no aircraft has a big enough advantage in WVR (apart from maybe the F-35) so getting to that point is simply not a great idea.

Dogfights start BVR regardless - you have to know where the enemy is to get to WVR is the first place.

No good detecting something by chance 20 miles out on an IRST if the whole world detected you at 80 miles on radar and are already dictating the moves.


Want to merge with an F-22/35 outside of a 1 v 1 WVR exercise then another stealth fighter like PAK-FA is required - or an air force of vastly overwhelming numbers!

Ignore any press reports about mock dogfights or performance because they are usually a million miles away from anything............


'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
#3963399 - 06/05/14 10:27 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
jenrick Offline
Member
jenrick  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Dogfights start BVR regardless - you have to know where the enemy is to get to WVR is the first place.

In concept I agree.

However to say that a determined adversary can't force a WVR engagement I think is incorrect. The US operations over Kosvo, had a 12 mile wide entry and exit corridor. You can force an engagement with political considerations like that.

Also take a look at the Arab/Israeli conflicts. The Israelis have been operating F-15's and F-16's for decades, yet the VAST majority of their kills have been WVR rather then long range BVR shots. In Bekaa Valley in 1982, 8 kills were with guns, 54 with IR missiles and 12 with radar-guided missiles. All radar-guided missile kills except one were from visual range, with a total of 5 BVR shots taken.

Arguably the technology has matured to the point where a F-22 or F-35 can operate BVR effectively. However what if that fails, or due to political pressure, we're suddenly required to operate WVR?

Quote:
No evidence either give up the WVR fight - no aircraft has a big enough advantage in WVR (apart from maybe the F-35) so getting to that point is simply not a great idea.


This is my point exactly. The F-15 for instance was designed to dominate the BVR arena, and to be matchless WVR. I believe we've put too big a premium on stealthiness for the F-22 and F-35, that they are not capable of ensuring domination of the WVR fight. Fighters like the Rafale, Eurofighter, etc. seem to have an advantage in this area, and I can imagine other nations taking notice and designing their fighters to do the same. It's a heck of a lot cheaper to build a fighter that's got all the bells and whistles of the F-22/F-35 without the stealth.

-Jenrick

#3963434 - 06/06/14 12:06 AM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster Offline
Member
MigBuster  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
UK
None of those fighters have any real advantage in WVR over the F-22/35.

Again you cant force anything if you have no idea where the other guy is!

Yes if you have to do a visual ID (which wasn't even done in 1991 in all but 1 of cases for F-15Cs) then the F-22 still can go WVR and maintain a massive advantage.


There is no comparison to the radars and missiles of the early 80s to what is available today - just like there is no comparison in capability between the F-16A Block 5/10 that fought in 82, and the F-16E Block 60.

It could be cheaper to build or procure 2nd rate 4.5 gen fighters if using similar economies of scale ..........but it's also a waste of money if your rivals have 5th Gen.

Yes some of what we are saying will probably seem illogical to you wink

#3963441 - 06/06/14 12:20 AM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
So now that you explained where you're coming from, let's get down to facts:

The F-15 was not designed to be matchless at WVR. That was desired, but it was never the case. Case in point, F-16's beat up on F-15's all day long in BFM exercises.

Regarding the reports you are referring to ...

Mr Raptor Salad: Actually a series of fights where the F-22 and Eurofighter came out about even.
Mr Rafale video: Actually a series of 6 or 8 fighters (don't recall anymore) where they came out about even.

In the Rafale video, no matter how badly you want it or want to say the Rafale got the kill, it didn't. He never called the kill. He basically ran out of time, and that's a big deal.

The F-22 is twice the weight of those aircraft, which fought clean and that is not very realistic. AFAIK/IIRC, the F-22 performed HOBS missile Rmin merges as practice against them as well, so their merges were not necessarily optimized to win a gun duel.

Eurofighter: Being marketed worldwide
Rafale: Being marketed worldwide
Raptop: Not being marketed anywhere.

Hint.

Originally Posted By: jenrick
This is my point exactly. The F-15 for instance was designed to dominate the BVR arena, and to be matchless WVR. I believe we've put too big a premium on stealthiness for the F-22 and F-35, that they are not capable of ensuring domination of the WVR fight. Fighters like the Rafale, Eurofighter, etc. seem to have an advantage in this area, and I can imagine other nations taking notice and designing their fighters to do the same. It's a heck of a lot cheaper to build a fighter that's got all the bells and whistles of the F-22/F-35 without the stealth.

-Jenrick

Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/06/14 12:20 AM.

--
44th VFW
#3963509 - 06/06/14 03:19 AM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
jenrick Offline
Member
jenrick  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
None of those fighters have any real advantage in WVR over the F-22/35.

Again you cant force anything if you have no idea where the other guy is!

Yes if you have to do a visual ID (which wasn't even done in 1991 in all but 1 of cases for F-15Cs) then the F-22 still can go WVR and maintain a massive advantage.


Back to my point about Kosovo. You could have trolled the entry/exit corridor with a Cessna and a spotlight and found NATO aircraft. I agree that in the open sky, yeah it's probably not an issue. When was the last time the US operated without some restriction on entry/exit, basing, flyover, etc?

Quote:
There is no comparison to the radars and missiles of the early 80s to what is available today


We said that in the 90's for GW1, in relation to the technologies maturation from Vietnam. Now I'm not saying that it's not true this time. That's kind of the crux of my question. Have things advanced enough finally? My thought is No.

Quote:
Yes some of what we are saying will probably seem illogical to you wink


Not sure how to take that. If it sounds illogical to me, then either it is logical and just not being explained well, or it's not logical.

Quote:
The F-15 was not designed to be matchless at WVR. That was desired, but it was never the case. Case in point, F-16's beat up on F-15's all day long in BFM exercises.


Good point, the F-15 dominance of the WVR realm was a happy accident. I would say though that the F-16 was designed in a contemporary time frame, with the goal of being a very good WVR fighter. Almost the same issue we see with the current 5th generation fighters. The current crop appears to be focused on BVR, but what happens when someone builds a counter fighter to that problem?

I picked the F-22 and F-35 as they are the only two flying 5th generation fighters out there with any real data available. My comments could just as easily apply to the Sukhoi PAK FA, or the Shenyang J-31. Are 5th generation fighter designers putting too much stock in stealth and not enough in WVR combat capabilities?

Quote:
Mr Raptor Salad: Actually a series of fights where the F-22 and Eurofighter came out about even.
Mr Rafale video: Actually a series of 6 or 8 fighters (don't recall anymore) where they came out about even.


Yes I'm well aware of the fact that these sort of things have little real world relevance. Then again it's all we've got to go on. With that said, if you consider that it's basically all draws, that means a fighter that is anywhere from 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the F-22 fought it to a draw in a WVR situation. To me that would indicate that it does loss something for focusing so heavily on stealth and BVR.

Quote:
Eurofighter: Being marketed worldwide
Rafale: Being marketed worldwide
Raptor: Not being marketed anywhere.


Well considering the US wouldn't export the F-22 by law it's not a big surprise that it's not being marketed anywhere. The F-35 on the other hand is being sold everywhere, I'm honestly surprised there's not a kiosk in 7-11 to pick one up if you have a couple extra million laying around, with the way they're pushing for sales.

To move away from the F-22/F-35 in specific: Is a focus on BVR and stealth worth sacrificing WVR capability with the current generation of technology? My thought are no it is not worth sacrificing this capability. The political restrictions the worlds militaries operate under these days pretty much ensure that BVR is going to be a rarely used capability.

-Jenrick

Last edited by jenrick; 06/06/14 03:26 AM.
#3963520 - 06/06/14 03:48 AM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
Originally Posted By: jenrick
Good point, the F-15 dominance of the WVR realm was a happy accident. I would say though that the F-16 was designed in a contemporary time frame, with the goal of being a very good WVR fighter. Almost the same issue we see with the current 5th generation fighters. The current crop appears to be focused on BVR, but what happens when someone builds a counter fighter to that problem?


The F-15 is also very heavily focused on BVR. You're not bringing up a new argument, you're bringing up an old one.

Quote:
I picked the F-22 and F-35 as they are the only two flying 5th generation fighters out there with any real data available. My comments could just as easily apply to the Sukhoi PAK FA, or the Shenyang J-31. Are 5th generation fighter designers putting too much stock in stealth and not enough in WVR combat capabilities?


I don't understand where you get the notion that anything has been sacrificed. The F-22 can stay on par with contemporary aircraft half its weight in a fair BFM engagement. An F-15 can't. F-35's are build as strike fighters, and their decrease in BFM capability compared to an F-22 is a compromise based on the mission and not stealth.

Both the F-22 and F-35 are built to combat threats at BVR ranges, and WVR. They both have different solutions to that particular problem, and they will essentially use different tactics to accomplish the same goal.

The PAK-FA, J-20/31 are the same. They're designed to fulfill a mission, and I don't see anyone skimping on WVR capability where it's needed.

Quote:
Yes I'm well aware of the fact that these sort of things have little real world relevance. Then again it's all we've got to go on. With that said, if you consider that it's basically all draws, that means a fighter that is anywhere from 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the F-22 fought it to a draw in a WVR situation. To me that would indicate that it does loss something for focusing so heavily on stealth and BVR.


No, it means it can draw in a fair BFM situation AND in a setup where you'd expect it to be the loser most of the time. F-22's aren't magical, they're airplanes. A realistic scenario is anything but fair, and it is definitely very unfair to the non-stealth aircraft - an F-22 can enter the WVR fight unnoticed as demonstrated many times in exercises. Going back to the F-15/F-16 comparison, F-15's eat F-16's for breakfast in BVR, so in a full-up exercise an F-16 or two would have to sneak past unnoticed to successfully engage in WVR. If it doesn't sneak in, then it's facing multiple eagles and its maneuverability is nullified.

Quote:
To move away from the F-22/F-35 in specific: Is a focus on BVR and stealth worth sacrificing WVR capability with the current generation of technology? My thought are no it is not worth sacrificing this capability. The political restrictions the worlds militaries operate under these days pretty much ensure that BVR is going to be a rarely used capability.


I don't believe that anyone is sacrificing anything. As for BVR being restricted, who knows? Maybe, maybe not. WVR is pretty short anyway, maybe up to 8nm against a big fighter that's showing you its plan view. Much less otherwise.

And speaking of:

Quote:
We said that in the 90's for GW1, in relation to the technologies maturation from Vietnam. Now I'm not saying that it's not true this time. That's kind of the crux of my question. Have things advanced enough finally? My thought is No.


Yes, things really have advanced leaps and bounds. Missile Pks are six times if not more what they were back then, and some of the reasons are:

- Missiles don't drop dead off the rail because the rocket squib was poorly wired and wouldn't fire
- Missiles don't drop dead off the rail because the vacuum tubes were smashed as a result of multiple captive landings
- Pilots have much better envelope indications and weapon employment training, so they're not shooting their missiles out of parameters

Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/06/14 03:53 AM.

--
44th VFW
#3963602 - 06/06/14 11:14 AM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster Offline
Member
MigBuster  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
UK
Originally Posted By: jenrick


Back to my point about Kosovo. You could have trolled the entry/exit corridor with a Cessna and a spotlight and found NATO aircraft. I agree that in the open sky, yeah it's probably not an issue. When was the last time the US operated without some restriction on entry/exit, basing, flyover, etc?



There are always rules and restrictions in all these limited conflicts. Speaking of 1999 Allied Force over Serbia / Montenegro / Kosovo etc there are parallels to how it started to the 1965 Rolling Thunder - but they didn't impose any ROE stating they must visually ID enemy aircraft - and after a month they changed everything (unlike rolling thunder that went on for 3 years).

You are talking of a conflict where the Serbian MiG-29s (9.12Bs) had no choice but to try and force a merge. There is a video of the surviving Serbian pilots giving their accounts of having no working radar/RWR and having to look for NATO jets with their eyes. The problem is that all the NATO jets and AWACs etc know where these guys are pretty much after take off - so the only result is that they get blown out of the sky without really knowing what hit them.............




Originally Posted By: jenrick

We said that in the 90's for GW1, in relation to the technologies maturation from Vietnam. Now I'm not saying that it's not true this time. That's kind of the crux of my question. Have things advanced enough finally? My thought is No.


There is simply no comparison between the radar/missile technology used in 1991 (AIM-7M / AIM-9M) and that used in Vietnam - or the air combat environment. Take into consideration the AWACs coverage in 1991 and the ability to use valid systems for BVR identification - Iraqi jets were normally picked up by AWACs 98% of the time - unlike in Nam where the MiGs could swoop down on US jets undetected.

Nam was a mostly pre solid state technology world - no F-4s had HUD displays, in 1965 the USAF pilots, interceptors and missiles were optimised for taking down Soviet bombers in WWIII.

As a matter of fact there was a massive difference in missile / radar performance and tactics just from 1965 (AIM-9B / AIM-4D / AIM-7D) to 1972 (AIM-9J / AIM-7E2) - a lot of declassified information and research shows us this.

You mentioned Israel but if you do some research into their conflicts you will see that even by 1973 they claim the AIM-9D was far superior to the AIM-9B / Shafrir 1 / AA-2. By 1982 F-15s made look down kills using Pulse Doppler mode and AIM-7Fs and the Python 3 / AIM-9L were simply proven to be on a different planet to missiles only 10 years earlier.


Originally Posted By: jenrick

Not sure how to take that. If it sounds illogical to me, then either it is logical and just not being explained well, or it's not logical.


If it was easy to explain these concepts then it would be done.


Originally Posted By: jenrick

To move away from the F-22/F-35 in specific: Is a focus on BVR and stealth worth sacrificing WVR capability with the current generation of technology?


WVR capability is not sacrificed..............







'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
#3963974 - 06/06/14 09:27 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
Stealth vs Stealth will result in a WVR fight and who ever sees who first will win because of off boresight missiles and helmet mounted displays.



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3964143 - 06/07/14 09:33 AM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 461
Lord Flashheart Offline
Member
Lord Flashheart  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 461
London, UK
Quote:
Stealth vs Stealth will result in a WVR fight and who ever sees who first will win because of off boresight missiles and helmet mounted displays.


Not necessarily. The high cost of stealth combat aircraft (and the fact that there are fewer of them) could possibly mean that that the next peer vs peer big air battle might in fact be more like Jutland than the Battle of Britain.

Lots of BVR shots traded, maybe couple of kills each side, but everyone keeps their distance and doesn't press home the fight.

Why? Unless its a no-kidding nuclear bomber strike inbound to your capital city - then what would be the incentive (even for a balls-out aggressive fighter leader) to lose a significant (and irreplaceable) part of the country's air power in say 10mins of WVR fighting?

Case in point. I spoke this year to a RAF Typhoon pilot who'd been deployed on ops over Libya 2011. I asked him, after bombs were expended whether there was any guns strafing done - given many targets were unarmoured technicals and it was a degraded SAM threat and thinking that a few of the more gung-ho pilots might have wanted to emulate Hurricanes IIDs some 70 years earlier.

He said no - why? (Paraphrasing slightly here) - the risk of losing a £126m asset to kill a single Totoya Landcruiser, even from a lucky shot from a light AAA or MANPADS simply didn't stack up.

So it may well be that any future air combat is similarly scrappy and inconclusive.

There is also the mix of stealth and non-stealth legacy fighters which the US (and UK) are exploring. and which brings whole new level of options and tactics if part of your force is out in the open, and another is hidden.

If you are Red Air and you see blips on the radar heading away from you, and you know the other side has (semi-invisible) stealth, do you think 'easy kill' or do you think 'I'm being led into trap here'? Stealth could make enemies even more cautious of engaging directly.

Finally - the prime lesson from 1991 (and Kosovo/Balkans/Iraqi Freedom 2003) is for any future full-on conflict - shutting down your enemy's air ops on the ground is the number one priority. Cyber, cruise, ballistic missiles, sabotage, because that is the easiest place to kill/negate them - not in a knifefight dogfight.

For any enemy of the west/NATO-style doctrine the paradox is this: If war is imminent - do I sortie my aircraft in a mass pre-emptive counter-air strike on their airbases (and therefore potentially lose most of my air force when their AWACS directs fighters in). Or do I hunker down, hope my SAMs and bunkers protect me from their counter-air strike - and I still have enough fighters for the second day?

Apologies for the long post. Seemed to have strayed away a bit from 5th gen WVR or not. but interesting topic.

Last edited by Lord Flashheart; 06/07/14 09:34 AM.

There's nothing cushy about life in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps!
#3965241 - 06/09/14 11:01 PM Re: Dogfighting (or WVR Combat) in the age of 5th Generation fighters [Re: jenrick]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
They've tested stealth aircraft fighting alongside Superhornets in a many vs few exercise and how F22s are used is they fly behind enemy lines and just send datalink information to AWACs. Then just a few F22s with dozens of superhornets are capable of holding off a much larger force of Migs. Because the Superhornets just use the tgts illuminated by the F22. And F22 guides the missiles to the tgts while the superhornets are just a missile platform.



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0