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#3943782 - 04/24/14 01:34 PM People  
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Smokin_Hole Offline
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Last week I flew with one of the more interesting vets I've met in my profession. Through some weird over-staffing situation at the Air Force his Academy class was allowed to leave for other Services. He flew the Kiowa and later Apache during the Balkan conflict and switched back to the Air Force to fly the A-10A and -C in Iraq and Afganistan. This guy had me on the edge of my seat for hours. I heard things that were unlike anything I've read--some sad, some funny. All far more complex than I'd ever realized from my reading and playing. He was familiar with DCS and very impressed with it. Some IPs recommended it to pilots new to the -C as a cheap way to get familiar with the differences. He first learned of DCS from kids at air shows asking such specific questions about the jet that even he had to dig deep for an answer.

Anyway (and the reason for this post) in all of his combat stories, his insights on war and his thoughts about the enemy, never once did he mention firing on or dropping on a vehicle. I don't doubt that he did but he never mentioned it. He only talked about people: a mother holding her baby to the sky so that pilots at 20000 feet wouldn't bomb her location, bad guys walking the streets with heat signatures of their still-hot guns under their clothing, special forces hunkered down and outnumbered within rock-throwing distance of the enemy, Hogs using markpoints to tag individual combatants in a village, watching in amazement as Little Birds roll inverted over a hill to fire rockets on Taliban soldiers at point blank range. This was combat to him. There might be armored conflicts again someday but it seems like the recent air-to-ground experiences of Americans, Brits and Russians has been largely against buildings and infantry, and less against tanks and columns.

War, what little I understand of it, is still about infantry. I know this gets brought up from time to time. But it's time to bring it up again. Our PCs are four times more powerful than they were when LOMAC came out. Certainly there is some power to spare to put people into the equation. Asking for ARMA would be a big stretch. But the current environment, even if made more beautiful by EDGE, will retain an evironment that is too stale and dehumanized to really claim itself to be a combat simulation.

Last edited by Smokin_Hole; 04/24/14 03:36 PM.
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#3943797 - 04/24/14 01:57 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Peally Offline
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I am in favor of more realistic (or really, any) ground ops smile


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3943803 - 04/24/14 02:03 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Entil'zha
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Arma lets you do that. The theater is necessarily far smaller, so even for an A-10 you're running out of space and turning around too soon (but still a lot better than the silliness of BF), but it lets you do combined arms to a degree that no other "pure" flight, armor, or infantry sim alone can do.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3943833 - 04/24/14 02:25 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Yanagi Offline
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Sorry, I would like to have an opinion on your post, but that massive block of text just completely puts me off attempting to read it wink

Seriously - the odd paragraph break would make a world of difference.


Yia su
#3943840 - 04/24/14 02:29 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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I think we are seeing things evolve as far as troops in the game, we see new features with helicopter transportation, you can control manpads, they say EDGE will bring skeletal animations to ground troops... then we have DCS Armour coming...

Last edited by SiThSpAwN; 04/24/14 03:01 PM.
#3943863 - 04/24/14 03:00 PM Re: People [Re: Yanagi]  
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Smokin_Hole Offline
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Originally Posted By: Yanagi
Sorry, I would like to have an opinion on your post, but that massive block of text just completely puts me off attempting to read it wink

Seriously - the odd paragraph break would make a world of difference.


Done.

#3943965 - 04/24/14 05:06 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Smokin_Hole, the stuff that your wrote raises some red flags:

The IPs would not likely reccomend using DCS A-10C to train anyone on anything. There are things that do not replicate the real aircraft correctly, the CMDS set does not reflect reality at all either, except in looks and that it will drop countermeasures - just as an example.

This is why the USANG comissioned the DTS, which he should be familiar with since that IS how they train for the differences, and it probably has entirely different suite/capabilities modeled than what is in DCS (which models a rather old version of the A-10C's software).

The whole going from AH-64's and A-10s (And switching entire services) kinda smells, too, not to mention inverted littlebirds.

Of course, I don't know this person, and maybe it's all good; but this sort of stuff raises red flags when I see it.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 04/24/14 05:07 PM.

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#3944002 - 04/24/14 06:11 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Well it's possible he's FOS. But that would mean fooling the background check of a very large international carrier. He is still on probation and I highly doubt that he would bring such attention to himself in his first year at an airline. I mean yes people certainly do. Leonardo di Caprio played a pretty good liar. This individual explained the Air Force Academy situation in great detail. Again, could be B.S. but it sounded plausible. Academy students in the early '90s expected flight slots. If it was common knowledge that no slots would be available at the conclusion of a cadet's senior year then it seems a fair solution to let the cadet choose a service with slots. The part about using DCS as a training aid. Well that's what I understood him to say but that could be more a problem of my hearing than his telling. He certainly seemed to know a bit about DCS (which could also explain a few things if he is FOS). Switching services and platforms I have seen fairly often (usually Navy to ANG). His description of the Apache again seemed plausible. Having never seen one up close, I guess I could be talked into believing just about anything about it. Inverted helos (not AH/MH-6s specifically) I've heard before. I think by 'inverted' most pilots mean an attitude past knife-edge done with constant positive loading to prevent mast bumping. In other words, it's just a way to get the nose down in a hurry without breaking anything.

So yes GG I admit that it could all be BS. I'm sure at FL 350 I've exaggerated a few exploits myself to keep the cockpit fun and the two of us awake. I certainly believe that he served in Iraq and Afghanistan in some capacity. His knowledge of place names and unit locations was too confident. He knows that I will relay this story to other pilots, half of whom are former or current military pilots. It's a big risk spreading nonsense about oneself in such a small, tightly bound community. Anyway, if this guy is FOS, he should write a book. Because even as fiction it was one hell of a story.

#3944025 - 04/24/14 06:29 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Like I said, it's just some red flags, doesn't mean he's FOS. I'm just cautious because I always look for insights and I've been bit before is all smile

In any case, you're right about story-telling smile


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#3944427 - 04/25/14 02:29 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Yanagi Offline
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Originally Posted By: Smokin_Hole
Done.


Thanks - much less painful for old farts like me smile


Yia su
#3944519 - 04/25/14 05:06 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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msalama Offline
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Quote:
a mother holding her baby to the sky so that pilots at 20000 feet wouldn't bomb her location


This.

DCS is a great sim, but what if ED decided to model stuff like this? Would that be macabre? Tasteless? Realistic? A good reminder that we're - luckily - just playing games here, whereas the reality is ANYTHING but fun for anyone involved?

#3944524 - 04/25/14 05:23 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Originally Posted By: Smokin_Hole
But the current environment, even if made more beautiful by EDGE, will retain an evironment that is too stale and dehumanized to really claim itself to be a combat simulation.


SH, good read, until I got to this ^^^

I'd say that's rather subjective. In the multiplayer environment, the fellow players bring the human aspect in and make every mission fresh. IMHO

crew

#3944572 - 04/25/14 07:04 PM Re: People [Re: msalama]  
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Peally Offline
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Originally Posted By: msalama
Quote:
a mother holding her baby to the sky so that pilots at 20000 feet wouldn't bomb her location


This.

DCS is a great sim, but what if ED decided to model stuff like this? Would that be macabre? Tasteless? Realistic? A good reminder that we're - luckily - just playing games here, whereas the reality is ANYTHING but fun for anyone involved?


I've brought this up in other threads, but at some point you cross a big fat line from simulator into drama. I want a simulator, not something trying to make a heavy political or emotional statement. In a study sim I would probably draw that line at infantry engagements and MEDIVAC style missions.

I have no desire to hear panic and screaming over a radio from a bad gunshot wound, but I'd like to hear charged voices from JTACs walking me on to a target during infantry engagements.

The bottom line is I want to play pretend in the yard with my stick as a gun without the "realities" of that gun, as they're not needed in this situation.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3944582 - 04/25/14 07:37 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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HomeFries Offline
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Peally is right about a balance, and I would argue that immersion is not the be-all-end-all. Expanding on what Peally says, true immersion would be horrifying screams on the radio as a plane goes down, panic then resignation as a ground unit is about to be wiped out, etc. We don't need that; intensity without horror strikes the perfect balance of having fun in a simulated combat environment. If guys want to duplicate the horrors of combat with custom radio messages in the ME, then that's certainly their perogative, but I don't think it should be part and parcel for a sim. I got involved in flights sims at an early age, and they certainly influenced my career choice in Naval Aviation; flight sims rated 18+ may never have led me to that dream.

While I love what DCS is and where it is going, I still think Falcon AF/BMS is the gold standard for immersion. Hearing all of those radio comms reminded me of flying battle group ops in the WestPAC. Also flying over an area where a ground battle is going on is a huge thriller, though this is also modeled well in DCS World. I'm sure with the more recent emphasis on utility/transport helicopters, we can expect more robust AI infantry in the future. I for one would love to hear some good infantry radio calls on the Fox Mike.

So is DCS a bit antiseptic with the combat environment? Sure, but that's IMHO mostly due to the radio calls. A good mission designer can make a downright immersive mission (FOB Vetka by Joyride is a great example; see below), but this relies heavily on scripting and good voice acting/recording. I think what DCS really needs is more variety with the stock voices: more callsigns, more voices, the ability to add 3rd party voice packs, and more variations of the AI saying the same message. While bringing it all to life would be the job of the mission builder, this would certainly add that step up that DCS needs.

RalfiDude's FOB Vetka video; note the immersive radio calls scripted into the mission.


-Home Fries

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
- Robert A. Heinlein

The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

#3944584 - 04/25/14 07:37 PM Re: People [Re: Peally]  
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Entil'zha
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Originally Posted By: Peally


I have no desire to hear panic and screaming over a radio from a bad gunshot wound,



Play with enough guys drinking beers while flying and you WILL hear that. smile



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3944664 - 04/25/14 11:56 PM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Peally Offline
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Lol!

HomeFries I agree. The sterility in DCS really boils down to a lack of radio chatter and AI on the infantry level. Everything else is pretty golden. Falcon 4 did indeed have a bit more "feel" in that department.

That mission has some unusually quality voice acting for a custom mission. Now if that was largely dynamic and the infantry had even half the intelligence of op flashpoint units you'd have sim nirvana.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3944680 - 04/26/14 12:33 AM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Interesting topic. I don't have the time to pound out a thoughtful reply..but it did jog my memory of that classic Apache Air Assault / Longbow Assault video I made a few years back for a re-review.. Flying bodies and screaming voices throughout.. Skip to 1:08ish and 5:09 for the real horror.. wink Damn fine sims/games though...



BeachAV8R



#3944727 - 04/26/14 02:59 AM Re: People [Re: Smokin_Hole]  
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Wrecking Crew Offline
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I started a list, what clients of a multiplayer mission might grade.

- Complexity
- Difficulty
- Simplicity
- Fun
- Strategy
- Tactics
- Engineering
- Progression
- Immersion

I can tell you what missions of mine are popular by the number of folks who join on a regular basis. That's A-10C & A and Hueys. Some Combined Arms. Ka-50s not very much. Maybe one Mi-8T in ?? months.

Hardly any takers on the FC3 stuff -- hope to see that change with the F-15C improvements in v128; the Russian jet pilots never complain about their a/c models like the F-15C folks have like forever. But the Russian jets don't get pilots.

WC

#3944814 - 04/26/14 10:15 AM Re: People [Re: HomeFries]  
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Originally Posted By: HomeFries
Peally is right about a balance, and I would argue that immersion is not the be-all-end-all. Expanding on what Peally says, true immersion would be horrifying screams on the radio as a plane goes down, panic then resignation as a ground unit is about to be wiped out, etc. We don't need that; intensity without horror strikes the perfect balance of having fun in a simulated combat environment. If guys want to duplicate the horrors of combat with custom radio messages in the ME, then that's certainly their perogative, but I don't think it should be part and parcel for a sim. I got involved in flights sims at an early age, and they certainly influenced my career choice in Naval Aviation; flight sims rated 18+ may never have led me to that dream.

While I love what DCS is and where it is going, I still think Falcon AF/BMS is the gold standard for immersion. Hearing all of those radio comms reminded me of flying battle group ops in the WestPAC. Also flying over an area where a ground battle is going on is a huge thriller, though this is also modeled well in DCS World. I'm sure with the more recent emphasis on utility/transport helicopters, we can expect more robust AI infantry in the future. I for one would love to hear some good infantry radio calls on the Fox Mike.

So is DCS a bit antiseptic with the combat environment? Sure, but that's IMHO mostly due to the radio calls. A good mission designer can make a downright immersive mission (FOB Vetka by Joyride is a great example; see below), but this relies heavily on scripting and good voice acting/recording. I think what DCS really needs is more variety with the stock voices: more callsigns, more voices, the ability to add 3rd party voice packs, and more variations of the AI saying the same message. While bringing it all to life would be the job of the mission builder, this would certainly add that step up that DCS needs.

RalfiDude's FOB Vetka video; note the immersive radio calls scripted into the mission.


I'm curious about this mission. Are the voices we hear recorded by sim fans and then added into the mission?


-Sir in case of retreat, were we have to retreat??
-To the Graveyard!!

sandbagger.uk.com/stratos.html
#3944817 - 04/26/14 10:45 AM Re: People [Re: Wrecking Crew]  
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Yanagi Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wrecking Crew


Hardly any takers on the FC3 stuff -- hope to see that change with the F-15C improvements in v128; the Russian jet pilots never complain about their a/c models like the F-15C folks have like forever. But the Russian jets don't get pilots.

WC


That's because the A-10C has a big advantage over the FC3/Russian aircraft.

My fave is the Su-25,but I have a huge disadvantage to my comrades in A-10Cs due to their targeting systems. I suffered this a lot in a squadron I joined. Every mission was a PITA because, whilst I was taking all the risks, flying low and fast over several passes just to try and spot the enemy in an urban environment (and often at night), the guys in the A-10Cs were sitting at high altitude and blowing up everything with consummate ease. Same for the Ka-50s, hiding a couple of km away at a hover in the trees and blowing the stuffing out of everything with relative impunity.

These are the reasons that the Su-25 is my favourite (it's much more of a challenge) and why I rarely bother with online play where Hogs and Sharks are available to my side, too.

As far as the topic goes, I would like to see moving and fighting infantry. The same way I'd like to see people moving at airports in FSX. It's too sterile on the ground. They don't need to have their limbs moving - a fixed model just moving around on the ground would be better than nought.


Yia su
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