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#3944975 - 04/26/14 08:14 PM Re: Desert Storm - Mission 09 - Highway of Death [Re: SHar82]  
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MigBuster Offline
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Originally Posted By: SHar82
I understand your point, Beach. But really what we want in a videogame? a challenge!... not a mission where you have pretty much no other "challenge" than destroying the most vehicules (and virtual troops) possible, remembering that in reality this was a shameful slaughtering day. I don't get the point to recreate these very controversial events where very bad/criminal decisions was taken resulting in a tragic slaughtering of thousands of very real human live.

At least in a mission between thousands of B17 and hundreds of German fighters over Germany, it was a challenge for each side just to stay alive.




So let us in - in your reenactments of controversial human slaughter are those B-17s dropping flowers and everyone lives happily ever after?


I can at least reassure you that computer sprites don't mind dying for human entertainment.

Like any historical recreation people can research it and form their own arguments on them.


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#3945059 - 04/26/14 11:22 PM Re: Desert Storm - Mission 09 - Highway of Death [Re: SHar82]  
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tagTaken2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: SHar82
I understand your point, Beach. But really what we want in a videogame? a challenge!... not a mission where you have pretty much no other "challenge" than destroying the most vehicules (and virtual troops) possible,


I for one, am not interested in a "challenge", I play sims for immersion and to recreate stories. In fact most of the quick missions I play involve the slaughter of hapless vehicle columns ar15

#3945062 - 04/26/14 11:38 PM Re: Desert Storm - Mission 09 - Highway of Death [Re: MigBuster]  
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Originally Posted By: MigBuster
I can at least reassure you that computer sprites don't mind dying for human entertainment.

Have you not seen "Tron?" biggrin exitstageleft


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#3945310 - 04/27/14 04:59 PM Re: Desert Storm - Mission 09 - Highway of Death [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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A very good read is "Among the Dead Cities" which discusses the moral and legal ramifications of the allied strategic bombing efforts both in Europe and Japan. the fact of the matter is that a lot of it was wholesale attack on civilians with only the slimmest pretense of military targeting.

-Jenrick

#3945330 - 04/27/14 05:51 PM Re: Desert Storm - Mission 09 - Highway of Death [Re: jenrick]  
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BeachAV8R Offline
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Originally Posted By: jenrick
A very good read is "Among the Dead Cities" which discusses the moral and legal ramifications of the allied strategic bombing efforts both in Europe and Japan. the fact of the matter is that a lot of it was wholesale attack on civilians with only the slimmest pretense of military targeting.

This would not surprise me. I'll bet it is an incredibly imprecise calculus: bomb people to the point they want their leaders to resolve the issue (through surrender or peace or whatever), or does the bombing rally the people and make it even more difficult to achieve victory?

BeachAV8R



#3945378 - 04/27/14 08:02 PM Re: Desert Storm - Mission 09 - Highway of Death [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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jenrick Offline
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I highly recommend reading the book (there's a Kindle version as well), but the short form answer:

Basically we'd have been called war criminals by the Axis if they had won the war. The RAF over Europe and USAF in the Pacific front barely made a pretense of bombing military or industrial targets. The concept was to destroy the peoples will to fight, which basically didn't work. In fact the Blitz of London which was a straight up attack on civilians was instrumental in firming up British resolve against the Axis. The same was found to occur in Germany. Neither system really had any measure in place for the common citizen to say "Enough!" It would have taken an armed revolt in Germany, and something similar in the UK for the citizenry to force a stop to the war. What is the impetus to revolt, if the enemy is the one who appears to be indiscriminately bombing the hell of out your population centers?

The USAF in Europe at least made an attempt, with a tremendous loss of life, at bombing military and industrial targets. It was only after we began destroying the Luftwaffe that we were really able to do that with any degree of precision.

-Jenrick

#3945427 - 04/27/14 09:54 PM Re: Desert Storm - Mission 09 - Highway of Death [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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Hang on a minute....

Some of you seem to look at this as some sort of sacrilege, due to a perception of this being a straight up slaughter...and that its also not worthy since it's "not a challenge".

I put to you that games and simulations should not JUST be about challenges. Nor should they be limited to just the "clean wars". One can learn from such a scenario, sometimes just reading a history book just doesnt convey what really occurred, and why it went down the way it did.

Simulations allow us to recreate past events, without the bias of preferences.

So let's compare the "highway of death" engagement against 73 Easting: same war, same combatants, in both thr Americans absolutely DOMINATE, in both the Iraqis fell victim in battle.

"Whoa, but the highway thing wasn't a battle!" Well, sure it was...the war was still on, no surrendering from the units on the ground (unlike so many other Iraqi units prior to this), no call if surrender from an Iraqi general or army commander...that makes it still a battle during wartime, it was just an extremely lopsided battle: America had all the luck and the Iraqis had none.

Either way, for the Iraqis in both instances, the result was death. And 73 Easting has been simulated over and over again so many times...yet no one blinks at that.

Nor did anyone blink when Graphsim Hornet 3.0 had a mission to intercept fleeing Iraqi Mig's going to Iran...a lopsided turkey shoot if I ever saw one. Worn out Mig-21's with no modifications, few missiles, perhaps limited on fuel, vs a F-15's and all sorts of other advanced jets loaded for Grizzly bear!?!?



They say war is hell...because it is. Simulations help us understand just how unforgiving war can be, without actually suffering the real consequences. I would argue that this Highway of Death mission simulation is just as worthy as any historical writings of the event. If this event were depicted in a movie, would you protest the movie? Or would you wait to see whether it's respectful of the events that occurred that day? And why would you not offer a similar leeway for a simulator mission?

A final thought: war is unpredictable. An enemy you know is down and out, has often in the real world suddenly changed what it is doing, and suddenly, illogically attacked in an obvious suicide run, probably out of hate. Just because they were driving away from the fight, is no guarantee they werent possibly itching for a fight.


POLITICS, WAR, ECONOMY, CONTROVERSY! and other heated discussions and debates in the PWEC sub-forum at the bottom of this forum main page. See you there!
#3945527 - 04/28/14 02:13 AM Re: Desert Storm - Mission 09 - Highway of Death [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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Not 72 hours before that event, I have no doubt most of those soldiers had either been looting, raping, and killing Kuwaitis.

Saddam essentially sent a whole boatload of Iraqi civilians under the pretense of being the "Iraqi People's Army" or somesuch happy horsecrap. They pretty much stole anything that wasn't nailed down. They found suitcases and trailers full of loot in that maelstrom after it was over.

I'm having a bit of a problem working up some sympathy for the people that inspired the term "rape rooms". They had it coming.

Last edited by PFunk; 04/28/14 02:14 AM.

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#3945669 - 04/28/14 12:47 PM Re: Desert Storm - Mission 09 - Highway of Death [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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Do not ever, under any circumstances go to read people's comment to the Youtube video of 73 Eastings from Great Tank Battles (some sort of History channel program).

Seriously.


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