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#3941889 - 04/20/14 03:00 AM Navigation Challenge  
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KodiakJac Offline
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Decided to bite the bullet and bought BoS tonight. Logged on and only server with people was U.S. Expert. No icons for even your own plane, all white ground and clouds, had no idea where I was. Flew all over the map for about a half hour I guess and couldn't find a soul.

How do you guys find each other to fight hahaha


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#3941903 - 04/20/14 03:33 AM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
Just a Noob
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Tucson, AZ
I typically look for tracers coming over my tail. wink


Shoot to Kill.
Play to Have Fun.
#3941911 - 04/20/14 04:20 AM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Desode Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bucksnort
Decided to bite the bullet and bought BoS tonight. Logged on and only server with people was U.S. Expert. No icons for even your own plane, all white ground and clouds, had no idea where I was. Flew all over the map for about a half hour I guess and couldn't find a soul.

How do you guys find each other to fight hahaha


I am So with you on this ! I'm all about Hard Core But Trying to read a map and read Snow Covered ground to match the two ! Is a little over the top for me,, Give me full engine management and Anything else but that.
I find no joy in it at all.

The Map is currently not detailed enough to even do that.
It will show a River But the River is Frozen and covered snow on the ground.. LOL

Needless to say a little ridiculous for me personally.
I Truly hope we get a option where even if your playing on a Expert server you can have a icon for Just Your plane on the map.
If not that then the maps had better be Way more detailed to match the ground.

Desode


Forumrunners.com When you crave teamwork at the Highest Level ! Were waiting for you !


#3941989 - 04/20/14 12:01 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Rama Offline
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Toulouse France
So you don't like the simulation to be historically accurate regarding navigation?
There were numerous examples of pilots getting lost on the snowy Russian landscape during WWII. They had no icons to help them find the way back to the base, and had often to land/crash land in unknown areas.

#3941993 - 04/20/14 12:22 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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MACADEMIC Offline
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Malta
Well, the difficulty lies in skills real pilots are trained for but few sim fliers have developed. And even then, real pilots can easily find themselves lost over a featureless terrain. So they would be very alert to the possiblity, and would study their maps for any significant landscape features that help them orientate themselves (e.g. the rivers, their courses and relationsship to one another).

Where those are not available, and also no electronic navigation aids, pilots would revert to basic instrument navigation skills, i.e. knowing their airspeed, converting that to true airspeed at their altitude, factoring in whatever wind direction and speed they have information on, and would derive their estimated ground speed. Over the time travelled on a steady course, they could plot their estimated positions on their maps.

Now these are not easy procedures to follow, but for a pilot in these time they were essential for survival. I hope IL2 BOS will offer such an unaided level for those who want and can simulate to such detail. But there should be options and servers where navigation is made easier, for example where the own position is known, as in assuming that a pilot in those times would have known that essential craft.

MAC

#3942028 - 04/20/14 03:29 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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gx007 Offline
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Menifee, CA
Hello Buck,

I installed SweetFX. I had too much white out on my maps and couldn't see much. SFX works wonders for having better land and sky contrast. I use the FiFi2 profile.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/3625.../?hl=%20sweetfx

I also use the Sun as a navigation aid. Note your position at take off and location of the front line. On current MP map, Luft pilots always fly into the Sun toward Allies' base.

Navigating with the Sun is important more so with the inclusion of clouds. You can get easily disorientated inside the soup, but the Sun's rays can still penetrate through the layers.

Frozen rivers are another good aid as long as your memorize its layout.

I also memorize the larger sized village shapes, especially near your bases.

You may want to take a plane up to 7K and fly around to memorize key features.

For locating contacts, the fights mostly seem to be 1K over bases or in the corridor between them.

Good luck
Greg

Last edited by gx007; 04/20/14 09:18 PM.
#3942077 - 04/20/14 05:32 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: gx007]  
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Desode Offline
Ps3 & 360 GT : DESODE
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Originally Posted By: gx007
Hello Buck,

I installed SweetFX. I had too much white out on my maps and couldn't see much. SFX works wonders to having better land and sky contrast. I use the FiFi2 profile.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/3625.../?hl=%20sweetfx

I also use the Sun as a navigation aid. Note your position at take off and location of the front line. On current MP map, Luft pilots always fly into the Sun toward Allies' base.

Navigating with the Sun is important more so with the inclusion of clouds. You can get easily disorientated inside the soup, but the Sun's rays can still penetrate through the layers.

Frozen rivers are another good aid as long as your memorize its layout.

I also memorize the larger sized village shapes, especially near your bases.

You may want to take a plane up to 7K and fly around to memorize key features.

For locating contacts, the fights mostly seem to be 1K over bases or in the corridor between them.

Good luck
Greg


Really Good Stuff !!!


Forumrunners.com When you crave teamwork at the Highest Level ! Were waiting for you !


#3942159 - 04/20/14 11:01 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: gx007]  
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KodiakJac Offline
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KodiakJac  Offline
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USA
Originally Posted By: gx007
Hello Buck,

I installed SweetFX. I had too much white out on my maps and couldn't see much. SFX works wonders for having better land and sky contrast. I use the FiFi2 profile.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/3625.../?hl=%20sweetfx

I also use the Sun as a navigation aid. Note your position at take off and location of the front line. On current MP map, Luft pilots always fly into the Sun toward Allies' base.

Navigating with the Sun is important more so with the inclusion of clouds. You can get easily disorientated inside the soup, but the Sun's rays can still penetrate through the layers.

Frozen rivers are another good aid as long as your memorize its layout.

I also memorize the larger sized village shapes, especially near your bases.

You may want to take a plane up to 7K and fly around to memorize key features.

For locating contacts, the fights mostly seem to be 1K over bases or in the corridor between them.

Good luck
Greg


Thanks for this info, Greg thumbsup

I've already got SweetFX but not installed it for BoS. I'm off to do that now and will start with Fifi's settings. One question that would be good to have here is the path/folders in BoS where it should be installed. Sometimes it is obvious and sometimes not (like Rise of Flight where I already use SweetFX).

So whether I get stuck or not if you know the path please post it (I will if I figure it out). It will be useful to both me and others salute


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#3942212 - 04/21/14 02:19 AM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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gx007 Offline
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Menifee, CA
Buck,

This should help.


#3942320 - 04/21/14 10:31 AM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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LukeFF Offline
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In regards to navigation, the game is going to feature RDF for both sides, so that should help out greatly.

#3942447 - 04/21/14 03:34 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: LukeFF]  
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KodiakJac Offline
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Originally Posted By: LukeFF
In regards to navigation, the game is going to feature RDF for both sides, so that should help out greatly.

That sounds great, Luke. Also, I really enjoy the Normal servers...they are great, with icons and external views so I can enjoy the scenery in transit. Then I can jump in the cockpit when it's time to fight. It is the navigation on the Expert servers I don't like. I've never liked full real servers where you're trapped inside the cockpit, but the Normal servers are great!

Do you know when they're going to add back the stock missions? I'm not really a big fan of MP so I'm looking forward to the SP content.


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#3942448 - 04/21/14 03:38 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: Rama]  
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KodiakJac Offline
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KodiakJac  Offline
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USA
Originally Posted By: Rama
So you don't like the simulation to be historically accurate regarding navigation?


No. But the Normal servers are great!


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#3942514 - 04/21/14 05:14 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
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Sierra Hotel

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Space Coast, USA
Ditto. I don't buy into the "simulate every aspect of the pilot's life" idea.

I play for fun. I don't find navigation fun. Simple as that. Nor do I find monitoring and adjusting engines fun.

I used to have a '78 Corolla that had a manual transmission AND a manual choke. Driving stick isn't too bad (although for the "it's more fun!" crowd there is NOTHING fun about a '78 Corolla), but manual choke was ridiculous. Too little, too much, different depending on ambient temp and how long the car's been sitting there...UGH.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3942553 - 04/21/14 06:12 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Rama Offline
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Rama  Offline
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Toulouse France
My first cars, from the early 80 to the mid 90, all had manual choke, and all my cars allways had manual stick.
I never felt it was a problem (And I just hate automatic cars)

Back to simulation. What I like is having full mission, from the take off to the landing (if possible), and with navigation to the target area, and navigation back... that's a good part of the fun for me (and icons and hud are killing all the fun). If you don't simulate navigation and sky scanning during transition flight, you just miss 90% of the pilot work... what's stay?
Frenetically shaking the stick and pulling the trigger on labelled moving target can certainly be fun... but I fail to see the link with an aerial combat mission.

#3942593 - 04/21/14 08:06 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: Rama]  
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KodiakJac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rama
My first cars, from the early 80 to the mid 90, all had manual choke, and all my cars allways had manual stick.
I never felt it was a problem (And I just hate automatic cars)

Back to simulation. What I like is having full mission, from the take off to the landing (if possible), and with navigation to the target area, and navigation back... that's a good part of the fun for me (and icons and hud are killing all the fun). If you don't simulate navigation and sky scanning during transition flight, you just miss 90% of the pilot work... what's stay?
Frenetically shaking the stick and pulling the trigger on labelled moving target can certainly be fun... but I fail to see the link with an aerial combat mission.



That's why I think the Normal servers will be a good compromise. You can turn off the HUD and I can turn on the autopilot and switch to F2 view and enjoy the scenery and F3 flyby views while in transit, then I can jump in the cockpit and fight when there are cons. I also love the full takeoff to landing missions, but not being stuck in the cockpit when there's so much more to see. The Normal servers will let us both have our way smile2

The "full real" guys always act like the only other mode is Airquake when there is so much more in between. I'm a "tweener" and the Normal servers are great for that thumbsup


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#3942638 - 04/21/14 09:45 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Rama Offline
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Rama  Offline
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Toulouse France
Originally Posted By: Bucksnort
I can turn on the autopilot and switch to F2 view and enjoy the scenery and F3 flyby views while in transit

And also switch the camera to the enemy planes and never be surprised by anything, and have your friends tell you everything about the manoeuvrings of the enemies when you're in fight, etc..... (and don't tell me it don't happen, I've seen it many time).
BTW, if I want to enjoy the scenery, I use the camera mode directly in the editor, works well with RoF.

Quote:
The Normal servers will let us both have our way
Certainly not. And you will not see me in the servers you like.

Quote:
The "full real" guys always act like the only other mode is Airquake
No, I agree they are certainly many different type of game possibilities outside "full switch"... just none that interest me and give me the immersion I want to feel.

Quote:
I'm a "tweener" and the Normal servers are great for that
Good for you. And it's good also that we can play different type of games with the same software. We just won't play together... but who cares wink

#3942655 - 04/21/14 10:11 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Sethos88 Offline
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I like to shoot stuff

#3942748 - 04/22/14 04:36 AM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: Rama]  
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Desode Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rama
My first cars, from the early 80 to the mid 90, all had manual choke, and all my cars allways had manual stick.
I never felt it was a problem (And I just hate automatic cars)

Back to simulation. What I like is having full mission, from the take off to the landing (if possible), and with navigation to the target area, and navigation back... that's a good part of the fun for me (and icons and hud are killing all the fun). If you don't simulate navigation and sky scanning during transition flight, you just miss 90% of the pilot work... what's stay?
Frenetically shaking the stick and pulling the trigger on labelled moving target can certainly be fun... but I fail to see the link with an aerial combat mission.


I am a Very Anti Icon player.

What I mentioned was just a Single icon On the MAP,,, ONLY Showing the Direction of your Plane that you are flying and a Wide General area of Direction that you are going in.

NO Icons for any friendly's on the Map ,,,,No Icon for any Enemies ,, No icons for Any Other thing in the Entire Game..

Just so you can see the direction you are going on the Map and THAT'S IT.
It gives No advantage to really anything,, just a General sense of direction.
Basically a half *ssed Map Compass that is not Spot on accurate .
By Not 100% accurate,, I mean to say that I would also have No problem with it being OFF to a ceritan degree.
Say it shows you in the area of a airfield and you still have to visibly look for it , Yet know you in the right area and it Has to be Close !! LOL

Does that make any sense ? And does that clear up what I am personally talking about ?

Look If you Work a 60 Hour week and have 2 hours to fly a Game that you dump mad money into and you want to jump online and play MP Expert servers, You shouldn't have to be 100% lost for over a hour trying to find a target and then spend another hour trying to find a way back to your Airfield to land.
That's all I'm saying.

There are just somethings that can become painful to do even in a Sim and that is one of them when it comes to navigation.

Maybe I will change my mind on this after I learn the map ?
I Don't know ?

This is really one of the Only Sims (Played them all) when I have had This much trouble reading terrian.

Now you can Say that this is a Historical aspect of this Time frame and what really happened ,,, AND I would 100% Agree with you. Still, If I can't get a Better grasp on my navigation issues, I will get Very disgusted after a month or two of this , because I can't keep spending my Only couple of available hours each week and Never Ever find my airfield or a Target ! LMAO

It gets Very frustrating after about a month of this, and instead of looking forward to flying MP , I Start to dread even trying it.

You can of course shoot back ,, "Well then Go play Normal" But I will Not play Any game with Icons or markers on visual targets or planes,and Neither will I play without as Much Engine management as a flight sim has to offer.
I will Also Never play a game with Enemy icons on a Map.

If I could Bring up a Map and pull out a compass in my hand in the cockpit ,,Even that would help !
Surely that is "historically accurate ?

Hopefully all this Better explains, Where I am personally coming from ??


Most Sincerely Desode

Last edited by Desode; 04/22/14 04:43 AM.

Forumrunners.com When you crave teamwork at the Highest Level ! Were waiting for you !


#3942751 - 04/22/14 05:05 AM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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LukeFF Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bucksnort
Do you know when they're going to add back the stock missions? I'm not really a big fan of MP so I'm looking forward to the SP content.


No, I don't know if/when those particular ones are coming back.

#3942902 - 04/22/14 03:09 PM Re: Navigation Challenge [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Hackl Offline
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I would print out the map that you fly on and splurge and buy one of these. They work great smile



Last edited by Hackl; 04/22/14 03:13 PM.
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