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#3941368 - 04/18/14 08:03 PM Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII?  
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Nowi Offline
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My most recent career started in May 1916 with RFC 24, flying the DH2. I've been playing steadily in WOFF since late December and I know I'm getting better. I've started ratcheting down the aids, e.g., I've turned off labels.

I know that the DH2 was one of the Entente aircraft that ended the "Fokker Scourge." It was more maneuverable, faster, and employed in larger masses. I'm no stranger to WWI aerial sims and I know that the Fokker is at a distinct disadvantage against DH2s and N11S.

But here's my problem: I've flown about 50 sorties and I've downed over fifty German aircraft, including about 45 Fokkers. I could easily chalk that up to my own growing abilities, but I know that I wasn't doing it alone. If I brought down about 45 Fokkers during those 50 sorties, my fellow pilots in "B" Flight brought down about 90!

Case in point: we were assigned an airfield attack in June 1916. We were too busy fending off Eindeckers to attack the field. Without a loss we shot down nine Fokkers. Next mission? Repeat the airfield attack. No losses another six Fokkers brought down. Next mission? Repeat airfield attack! This time we downed another nine. I strafed a truck and that apparently kept us from repeating the mission yet again.

On those three missions, "B" Flight of 24 RFC downed two-dozen Fokkers without a loss. Keep in mind that at this stage of the war the Germans probably only had about fifty Fokkers deployed from the Channel to the Swiss border. The Germans only produced about 250 EIIIs. My boys have downed about 150 in a bit more than two months. And who know what "A" Flight has been doing.

My recollection is that the disparity between the EIII and the DH2 as not quite as marked in Red Baron 3D.

Any of you play Rise of Flight? How does the EIII fair there versus the DH2?


Nowi
#3941696 - 04/19/14 05:14 PM Re: Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII? [Re: Nowi]  
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Al Lowe Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nowi
My most recent career started in May 1916 with RFC 24, flying the DH2. I've been playing steadily in WOFF since late December and I know I'm getting better. I've started ratcheting down the aids, e.g., I've turned off labels.

I know that the DH2 was one of the Entente aircraft that ended the "Fokker Scourge." It was more maneuverable, faster, and employed in larger masses. I'm no stranger to WWI aerial sims and I know that the Fokker is at a distinct disadvantage against DH2s and N11S.

But here's my problem: I've flown about 50 sorties and I've downed over fifty German aircraft, including about 45 Fokkers. I could easily chalk that up to my own growing abilities, but I know that I wasn't doing it alone. If I brought down about 45 Fokkers during those 50 sorties, my fellow pilots in "B" Flight brought down about 90!

Case in point: we were assigned an airfield attack in June 1916. We were too busy fending off Eindeckers to attack the field. Without a loss we shot down nine Fokkers. Next mission? Repeat the airfield attack. No losses another six Fokkers brought down. Next mission? Repeat airfield attack! This time we downed another nine. I strafed a truck and that apparently kept us from repeating the mission yet again.

On those three missions, "B" Flight of 24 RFC downed two-dozen Fokkers without a loss. Keep in mind that at this stage of the war the Germans probably only had about fifty Fokkers deployed from the Channel to the Swiss border. The Germans only produced about 250 EIIIs. My boys have downed about 150 in a bit more than two months. And who know what "A" Flight has been doing.

My recollection is that the disparity between the EIII and the DH2 as not quite as marked in Red Baron 3D.

Any of you play Rise of Flight? How does the EIII fair there versus the DH2?


Everything I've read about WWI, says the EIII sucked when it came to fighter vs. fighter combat. It was slower than most of the single seaters it flew against, and it didn't turn as well. It was fine against the early 2-seaters, since most of them didn't have forward guns, and the BE-2 just flew like a truck. Most of the books I've read said you could not put the BE-2 into a spin. Even if you tried.

Does that help? smile


Al Lowe
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#3941714 - 04/19/14 06:19 PM Re: Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII? [Re: Nowi]  
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Nowi Offline
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanoe_Hawker

According to this account: "Spurred by [Hawker's] aggressiveness, 24 Squadron had claimed some 70 victories by November [1916] at a cost of 12 of its own planes and 21 pilots killed, wounded or missing."

No doubt, the 70 were not all Fokkers. But if half were--35--that's about a kill ratio of 3/1, versus EIIIs and 6/1 overall.


Nowi
#3941716 - 04/19/14 06:30 PM Re: Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII? [Re: Nowi]  
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Hasse Offline
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Wikipedia says a total of 416 Fokker Eindeckers (from E.I to E.IV) were made during the war. A quick search didn't reveal any loss numbers, but I doubt very many were lost in action. At least I have never read about any serious losses suffered by any units that flew Eindeckers.


"Upon my word I've had as much excitement on a car as in the air, especially since the R.F.C. have had women drivers."

James McCudden, Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps
#3941720 - 04/19/14 06:49 PM Re: Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII? [Re: Nowi]  
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Creaghorn Offline
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AFAIK the Eindeckers were more or less grounded after Max Immelmanns and later Otto Parschaus death from about July 1916 on because they were by far inferior to anything in the air. About that time Boelcke started his tour to regroup the German Luftstreitkräfte. So actually from about July 1916 until the appearance of Jastas and Halberstadts and Albatros DIs there shouldn't be any Eindeckers in the air at all and the allies had complete air superiority. In the time before I doubt that Eindeckers have been involved very much in fights with allied scouts but just on the hunt for slow two seaters. And even then not much dogfighting but here and there an attack from the sun and that's it.
If there were any fights among Eindeckers and DH2s, then rather because the German pilot was unaware. I'm sure as soon as the Eindecker pilot spottet anything else than a Be2 or a Fe2 (which gave Eindeckers also a good fight because they were used as fighters in those times) or Vickers Gunbus or something like that, they were gone.

#3941732 - 04/19/14 07:21 PM Re: Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII? [Re: Nowi]  
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Hasse Offline
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Also I think all flight sims give a more or less wrong picture of the early air war. In real life, there were no big fights between squadrons of Fokkers and Entente fighters, but that's what we regularly see in flight sims. It's like depicting the air war of 1918 with the aircraft of 1915.


"Upon my word I've had as much excitement on a car as in the air, especially since the R.F.C. have had women drivers."

James McCudden, Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps
#3945274 - 04/27/14 02:44 PM Re: Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII? [Re: Nowi]  
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Ironwrench Offline
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What amazes me is the famous "Immelmann turn." This is a reversing maneuver with altitude gain. As it is performed, in underpowered ships, the aircraft is put into a dive to gain speed for a half loop and then rolls out at the top of the loop. It is not to difficult to accomplish this in aircraft with high power to weight ratios but much more difficult in underpowered or low power to weight ratio aircraft like the 220 Stearman. I cannot manage the maneuver in any RoF aircraft and cannot imagine doing this maneuver in a grossly underpowered aircraft like a Fokker Eindekker. Picture it, your sitting on top of an Eindekker with a bogey shooting up your tail. You put the fragile Fokker into a screaming dive to gain sufficient airspeed and then pull up for a half loop warping the wings as hard as possible to manage the rollout at the apex of the loop! Having done this maneuver in modern aircraft, I simply cannot begin to imagine how young Max accomplished this manuever. I have always wondered if the actual maneuver Immelmann invented was more like a Chandelle (another reversing maneuver that involves a gain in altitude, but without inverted flight) than the maneuver he is credited with. On thing is certain, anybody who could pull off an Immelemann turn in combat while flying an Eindekker must have been absolutely fearless.

#3945281 - 04/27/14 03:13 PM Re: Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII? [Re: Nowi]  
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Ironwrench, the WWI "Immelmann Turn" is not the same as the half-loop with roll out, which is the 'modern' version. This is the original maneuver:




Lou

.


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#3945282 - 04/27/14 03:14 PM Re: Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII? [Re: Nowi]  
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For info, what you call the Immelmann turn is the modern version.
The WW1 "Immelmann" refers to what we would call a "Hammerhead" in modern flying.

Here is a picture from a 1918 flight manual ( Wikipedia )



Edit : Lou, you were faster... smile2

Last edited by corsaire31; 04/27/14 03:15 PM.

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#3945283 - 04/27/14 03:18 PM Re: Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII? [Re: Nowi]  
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Great minds think alike, eh corsaire31. winkngrin


BTW, for those interested, the above illustration is from the 1918 book, "Practical Flying" by W.G. McMinnies. Full PDF versions are readily avaiable online. Here is the Internet Archives offering: Practical Flying

IMHO, this is one of the must reads for those of us interested in WWI flight and it's related combat sims.

Enjoy!

Lou

.

Last edited by RAF_Louvert; 04/27/14 03:31 PM.

[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#3945581 - 04/28/14 04:25 AM Re: Just How Bad Was the Fokker EIII? [Re: Nowi]  
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Ironwrench Offline
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Thanks all for the information and for the PDF book. As I suspected, this was not the maneuver I was familiar with. Funny how I never ran across this description before throughout all my years of aviation buffery. I think even a hammerhead would be more excitement than I could handle while flying an Eindekker. In fact a thirty degree bank would probably test my limits at wing warping. Then too, it's just practical flying to never sit on top of your aircraft while in flight. I still think young Max was fearless or perhaps it was a just a matter of not knowing any better.


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