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#3932600 - 03/31/14 05:01 PM Question about pots and increasing sensitivity.  
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Tango Offline
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Tango  Offline
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Hi

I have converted a Saitek X-45 so that it has a long shaft in order to replicate some of the feel of flying either a helicopter or WWII plane.

The set-up works pretty well, however I feel that the sensitivity of control is lacking. The stick has 50K pots in it and I'm trying to work out how to replace the pots in such a way as to increase the sensitivity.

As it stands to get full aileron or elevator I am practically having to move my leg out of the way to give it enough travel. I can't help thinking that a Spitfire or Hurri probably had a pretty light touch and that moving the stick more than a couple of inches would be pretty extreme.

Any suggestions on how to do this? I'm thinking that using another 50K pot but with a shorter travel from max to min is the way to go but my knowledge of this is very limited.

Is this the case, and if so, any idea where I could find such a thing and what I'd be looking for in the specs?

Cheers!

Tango.


Mobo: Gigabyte GA-970A-D3 CPU: AMD FX 6100 6 core 3.30GHz
RAM: 8GB corsair (2 x 4GB) GFX: GeForce EVGA GTX 570 HD PSU: Arctic Pro 950W OS: Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 Joy: Saitek X-45 Peds: CH Pro Pedals Mouse: Madcatz R.A.T.3 TrackIR3: V5 software Mic: Samson GoMic
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#3932695 - 03/31/14 07:07 PM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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ArgonV Offline
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The truth is, you are lacking resistance. It's just about physically impossible to pull the stick all the way back when flying 200+ mph in a Spit or other WW2-era aircraft. The 50k pots should be more than enough. Do you have a way to adjust the response curves?


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#3932712 - 03/31/14 07:38 PM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: ArgonV]  
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Cold_Gambler Offline
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Originally Posted By: ArgonV
Do you have a way to adjust the response curves?


^This^ should definitely be the first thing to try smile


looks very modernishy-phoney-windows eighty-tabletty like

Asus P8P67 Pro Rev. 3.0 // i5 2500k @4.3 GHz with Noctua NH-D14 // nvidia gtx 780 // 8 GB DDR3 1600 //Win7 home 64 bit //450 GB VelociRaptor //Recon3D Champion
#3932804 - 03/31/14 11:11 PM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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SAPPER Offline
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The truth is response curves should be left the hell alone as the are not realistic at all. It's the saturation (lower and upper deadzones) that you want to change. And you are right it doesn't take that much full deflection of the stick to get full deflection of the control surfaces. This is the result of taking a desktop joystick and extending to the lenght of a real stick shaft (much longer in you case, as aircraft seats are much lower), you will probably want to add some physical stops to your setup and then match the saturation to that amount of travel on the stick. You are also right to supose that the x-45 doesn't have the resolution best suited to that kind of setup, but I don't think a simple change of pots will do the trick the electronics resolution will be a big factor here. A warthog probably would have the right resolution to take advantage of incressed travel on a saturated axis (and there's the hardware calibration tool that has much as I can tell actually reshapes the axis)or you could get some leo boadnar boards as some of them are also 12bit resolution and rewire the x-45 with those. In any case I would start to add some physical stops to the stick travel and add some saturation, I con't know about the x-45 software but if I remember correctly you can do it in the x-52 drivers, and some flight sims allow you to do it in the software. DCS and RoF coming to mind.

#3932921 - 04/01/14 07:14 AM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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julian265 Offline
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You could shorten the stick, so the pivot is just under your knees, not on the ground. That's what I did to avoid knocking my knees, and still get a longer throw stick.

#3932937 - 04/01/14 09:18 AM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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Tango Offline
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Milton Keynes, Bucks. England
Thanks for all the suggestions.

I am using curves and the saturation to get the best that the software has to offer. It's not terrible and it's still a much better experience that with a stick sitting on the desk. The customisation on DCS is excellent and the stick works very well with the Huey and the KA-50, it's mostly on CloD that the issue is most noticeable.

The problem with that is that there is a limit to what I can do before the noise in system means that the ailerons and elevators are fluttering when the stick is at rest and this is carried through when the stick is moved. In fact it's a little like going back to a gameport stick in that respect.

I used the X-45 stick as it's a relatively cheap one and this is the first time I've tried anything of this sort. I didn't want to destroy an expensive stick in the attempt.

I will have a look at the electronics suggestions and see if I feel that they are within my abilities.

Cheers!

Tango.


Mobo: Gigabyte GA-970A-D3 CPU: AMD FX 6100 6 core 3.30GHz
RAM: 8GB corsair (2 x 4GB) GFX: GeForce EVGA GTX 570 HD PSU: Arctic Pro 950W OS: Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 Joy: Saitek X-45 Peds: CH Pro Pedals Mouse: Madcatz R.A.T.3 TrackIR3: V5 software Mic: Samson GoMic
#3932951 - 04/01/14 10:04 AM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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Tango Offline
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OK

I've had a look at the Leo Bodnar BU0836X which looks, if not idiot-proof, maybe suited to my level of idiocy.

Two questions: 1. would I just bin all the circuits from within the X-45 and wire it all into the BU0836X? 2. would this reduce the noise in the system sufficiently that I could just up the sensitivity in-game or would I have to replace other bits?

Cheers!

Tango.


Mobo: Gigabyte GA-970A-D3 CPU: AMD FX 6100 6 core 3.30GHz
RAM: 8GB corsair (2 x 4GB) GFX: GeForce EVGA GTX 570 HD PSU: Arctic Pro 950W OS: Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 Joy: Saitek X-45 Peds: CH Pro Pedals Mouse: Madcatz R.A.T.3 TrackIR3: V5 software Mic: Samson GoMic
#3932992 - 04/01/14 12:34 PM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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Speyer Offline
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I'm currently building an extended Spade grip stick, and a button box, all run through a BU0836X board. I binned all the electrics out of the Saitek av8r I am using, but think I need to replace the pots (have ordered some P260's from Bodnar) as I don't think the Saitek pots are cutting it, there is a lot of fluttering as well which I am hoping is fixed with better pots.

#3933277 - 04/02/14 01:16 AM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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Pfeil Offline
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I've used the BU0836X with a number of different pots, and with new ones it's pretty solid.
With older/worn pots there can still be quite a bit of jitter, but that's a good thing in a sense;
There's no filtering to mess with your control inputs(Reversal issues on the G940 for example), so if the pots are good you should be fine.

#3933308 - 04/02/14 03:00 AM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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Sokol1 Offline
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Quote:

I've had a look at the Leo Bodnar BU0836X which looks, if not idiot-proof, maybe suited to my level of idiocy.


Some users - in this forum - have problem with axis detection with BU0836X.
BU0836A is more "bullet proof".

Quote:

Two questions: 1. would I just bin all the circuits from within the X-45 and wire it all into the BU0836X?


Axis is just matter or use 3 wires for each potentiometer - replace the originals with microphone cable (shielded).

Buttons you need use two wires for each (or one common and one for each button) with BU0836X, and remove all Saitek original wiring, because use some kind of matrix (can be 4X6,3x8...)...

You can trace a map of the actually wires and make changes to adapt for BU0836, but is headache. Better erase all and make news, of course leave buttons and HAT's in place. smile

If case of BU03836A is need combine buttons in 6x6 matrix, more laborious.

Quote:

would this reduce the noise in the system sufficiently that I could just up the sensitivity in-game or would I have to replace other bits?


The ideal is replace the potentiometers, at least in X and Y axis, for quality ones like Bourns, Spectrol.
The problem is joystick need a ~60 degrees potentiometers, and most of available to buy are 270 degrees...

If you use a 270 degrees pot' and turn then only 60 degrees you loose resolution, because his voltage variation will
not be 0 ~ 5 v.

If I remember correctly L.Bodnar boards (BU0836) have a software that allow "ZOOM" the axis output... Check his page.

Sokol1

Last edited by Sokol1; 04/02/14 03:06 AM.
#3933372 - 04/02/14 11:40 AM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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Tango Offline
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Tango  Offline
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Milton Keynes, Bucks. England
Thanks for that.

Food for thought ...

Tango.


Mobo: Gigabyte GA-970A-D3 CPU: AMD FX 6100 6 core 3.30GHz
RAM: 8GB corsair (2 x 4GB) GFX: GeForce EVGA GTX 570 HD PSU: Arctic Pro 950W OS: Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 Joy: Saitek X-45 Peds: CH Pro Pedals Mouse: Madcatz R.A.T.3 TrackIR3: V5 software Mic: Samson GoMic
#3933394 - 04/02/14 01:25 PM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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AndyB Offline
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Ayrshire, Scotland
Hi Tango,

You could of course go the old fashioned way and use nylon gears. A tooth ratio of approx 4:1 would seem about right if you want 60 degrees of movement to seem like 240 degrees to the pot.

Fit a small gear to the pot shaft and mesh it with a 4 times larger one on the stick.

This is the way I went on the anti-torque pedals on my cockpit and it works a treat.

Ideal source of nice nylon gears is an old printer......

Hope this helps,

Andy


Andy's simpit: http://www.simpit.me.uk
#3933427 - 04/02/14 02:46 PM Re: Question about pots and increasing sensitivity. [Re: Tango]  
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Tango Offline
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Tango  Offline
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Milton Keynes, Bucks. England
If I went that way I doubt that I would need that much of a differential. I could leave the original pots in there and just make up the difference in travel using gears. It would certainly seem to get around the resolution issue.

I am much happier with mechanical solutions that electronic ones as I can visualise what I'm doing more. The only issue is the amount of space in the base. Not necessarily a show-stopper, I might just have to look at moving the pots elsewhere.

Time to scratch head, I think. I don't really fancy making a whole new box for it so I'll have to work out how I could move things around to fit.


Mobo: Gigabyte GA-970A-D3 CPU: AMD FX 6100 6 core 3.30GHz
RAM: 8GB corsair (2 x 4GB) GFX: GeForce EVGA GTX 570 HD PSU: Arctic Pro 950W OS: Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 Joy: Saitek X-45 Peds: CH Pro Pedals Mouse: Madcatz R.A.T.3 TrackIR3: V5 software Mic: Samson GoMic

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