In Tiger Spirit campaign (korea) I set the difficulty to Rookie. Pilot skill and ADA are set to Rookie as well. Rookie is the middle level, which I'd call Medium, or Normal difficulty.

It has been the 4th time straight that I face a Su30 and get killed. Their missiles get deathly close before my slammers have a chance to go pitbull. So I beam and evade, but I can't shake them off, and die. Meanwhile my 120B has lost guidance and is going for lands unexplored.

Not very amusing, I must say.
How do you face these guys?

To my consolation is that I wasn't alone up there. It was a BARCAP mission, with plenty of allied wings operating nearby. Everybody around engaged those 4 Su30, calling fox3 like crazy. Not a single slammer homed in on 'em. Then it was my turn to die.

Is this another feature of BMS or am I supposed to have an easier life at Rookie level?

Hmmm.... unless you'd like to upload your mission/campaign file somewhere so we can take a look by flying the mission you are talking about.... but then again, with the DC, each flight might not turn out as you've described. Let me go and try a head-to-head with an Su30 and see what I can find out.

Care to share more details so I can set up my dogfights properly?

Okay, setup is 60nm, Angels 25, head-on, Su-30MKK Flanker Ace level, no ECM, 2 heaters, 2 radars. I pick him up at about 44nm, hot, and get to well within firing range and still hot. I fire at 18 or 19nm, notch, pitbull, notice him turn away, so I turn back in. Moments later, I get a missile launch warning, too close to evade, and get killed. I should've ACMI'ed that one, but I see later on that my -120 did damage him too.

Second setup identical to first one, fire at 18nm, pitbull was around 10-11nm, but he still manages to fire off an AA-12 missile at me and we both go down.

Third fight, I pick him up at 35nm, my RWR starts shrieking when he's at 30, but I wait again until 18nm to fire. Why do I wait? I'm trying to put myself in a bad scenario wherein I wait until I have high enough pK before launching a missile. This is usually halfway down between RMax1 and RMax2, or as close to RMax2 as I can comfortably get. ACMI shows me firing about 15 seconds before he gets his AA-12 off his rail. I fire and notch, he follows me for a few seconds, fires his missile, then notches the other way. I don't get an RWR warning until the missile is almost on me, at which time it gets to me even before I get halfway through my evasive maneuver.

For some reason, the fourth flight was a fluke and I started the mission with him on my 2o'clock low about 20nm. Both Sidewinders missed and we got into a knife fight. He did some fancy maneuver (I always forget to ACMI my cool fights!) and I ended up ahead of him so I do some fancy flying and eventually got behind him again and shared some 20 Mike-Mike love. Ah, such fun!

My successful engagement was simply because of a change in tactics after firing a missile. Same parameters, firing just before 18nm, notch, but when pitbull, I immediately beam the <29> spike and dive. Once I get the missile warning, I start my maneuver and defeat the missile. Reviewing the ACMI for this fight, I'm not sure if I would've still survived the fight though as the missile had a TAS of 970knots, tracking me while I was doing 590 knots on a 45 degree climb, then the game "teleported" my jet back to the start point so I can't honestly say if I out-energy'd the missile.

Next few flights, I tried firing at 20nm or so instead of 18nm. Let's see what a measly 2nm can do. On the first fight, he simply turned and ran. And died. Second fight, he fired a missile again but wasn't able to guide so I was able to evade just by beaming then it went stupid. On two other occasions, my -120B missed him and I was able to practice evading two AA-12s and with the whole thing started at 2nm further out, I was able to out-energy both missiles, re-acquire the Su-30, and do a guns kill.

One thing I noticed though is that it is some time between him firing the missile and me getting the RWR missile tone. I suspect that is when the missile starts guiding on it's own? In any case, once that tone comes up and I am not in a good position to evade, well, I am well and truly done for. If that tone comes up and I am in a good 45-degree dive with 600+knots, I can out-energy the missile. I guess the best way to do an engagement vs. Su-30s and other such aircraft is to assume that a missile is in the air with my name on it shortly after I fire my own missile. In other words, always try to put myself in a good position to defend against a missile shot right after firing my own missile.

Aah, so it's not me. It's their missiles to be very dangerous. I think they're kin to the AMRAAM: semi-active radar guidance. That would explain why the RWR doesn't pick them up until after they're so close.

With the TGP you can see when they launch on you. No alarm goes off. Do they fire mad-dogs?

Well, it's called the AMRAAMski

Do note that the "lethality" of the above practice can be lessened or eliminated simply by firing from further out (even 2nm makes a difference!) and/or by being in a good defensive position soon after firing your missile. IIRC, getting below 20nm separation and not yet turning away/evasive is frowned upon in my squadron. We're usually recommended to sort by 30 and fire by 25, out by 20. Firing at 18nm and being at 10nm on pitbull puts it in WVR by this time.

Also different from your experience based on your first post is that my missiles all go pitbull before his missile goes active (and makes the RWR shriek), all my -120s guided on him properly (although a few missed, they were still going for him), and for most of the time, I kill him. And that's with the AI on ACE difficulty.

Not sure how the AI is actually launching its missiles, I don't know much about the Russian aircraft/systems/weapons.

They fire supported missiles just like your AMRAAM like you said. Your AMRAAM launches won't set off any alarms on an F-16 RWR either. They also have better motors, larger radar dishes (the plane's), and can home-on-jam just like AMRAAM.

Anything carrying AA-12 you have to think he is just as good if not better than you and fight 110% effort (or run). Full afterburner, no bombs, get your speed to start with a 6 and your altitude to start with a 3. When you launch crank high and to the side to slow to 450 knots (full burner still). If he still comes head on leave at HPRF which comes before MPRF and pitbull voice sound file. HPRF will find him just fine. When threat is on dead six put the gun cross on the FPM (unload) and go faaaaaaast. Fall down to thick air like 10,000' and after a while (TM) pull up gently while keeping speed and missile can't follow. When M goes away, burner can come off.

Refinements to increase Pk are shooting closer and thus leaving later which means you have to perform better with less margin for error.

Yes, Su27/30 and AA-12 are very very dangerous for F16s. If you face these bandits I would recommend to use some BVR tactics with your flight/squadron.

LOL @ Frederf's comments. It is true though. On a few successful engagements, it seems that a contributing factor is because I was about 5,000 feet higher than him. However, for my testing, I tried to stay at the same altitude and only start using the burners once radar contact has been made. That means 350-400 knots initial airspeed, and only light the can once I managed to lock him up (or soft-lock on TWS). I am around 600knots at missile launch and the burner stays on until I know he is no longer a threat.

I don't like turning directly away from the bandit as I feel that the maneuver puts me out of the fight. If I wanted to run, then that is what I would do but if I wanted to kill him, then I prefer beaming. Also, on doing this maneuver, the "M" is only a threat as it comes closer on the RWR. A properly executed evasive maneuver will still result in an "M" in the RWR but even before that goes away, there is a point wherein you'll know you've trashed the missile and therefore can turn back into the fight.

Hey now, you gotta be kidding me. The 27's and 30's are the sole enemy AC's I've been meeting (or hearing about, over the radio) so far, 5 missions in the campaign. Hold on, lemme check something ..... damm it's the ripoff: Sukhoi BMZ 4.32 -- I've been scammed!

Let me adjust the quoting for you. You should edit your post accordingly:

That's better

Which campaign? Korea STRONG ?

It is possible to kill Su27 etc in BMS. We have some tactics which work fine but I think in SP it is not so easy. So you have to be very careful.

*... on the powerful notes of [Kanye West's "POWER"]...*
(try an OCA Strike with this one in the speakers )



FAQ that, he's right!
It's not Korea Strong, but it's _not_ the korean theater I'm used to, either.

I'm switching to the Korea Original theater. The terminators aren't worth the trouble. I'm not willing to forfeit loadout and mission every other run because I meet one. Campaigns don't win by themselves.

"Ice" is giving a lots of right ideas. Russian aircrafts can fire their radar missiles at a longer range while you are still trying to get closer to get an opportunity.

The only way is to deny "first-lock-first-shot" capability by using properly your Jammer. Another option is once you have fired is to "crank", it means place the target at your radar gimbal limit. So you have to turn left or right and place your target at 50· to 60· on you radar azimuth.

Using this method you will go nose to nose towards your target while waiting your AIM-120 to become pitbull.

Sometimes even these systems can not work so you have to be sure to know an evasive action or to know "risk management" strategies and use when they are necessary. If there are four SU-30MK and you are two F-16 with just 2 AIM-120 and with just 3000 lbs on board is it worthy to commit and engage them ?

If you are inside friendly territory performing a Barcap is it posssible to perform an offset of about 20 NM on one side and get behing them ? Is it possible to make a silent attack usign your AWACS from their back? That's something you can assess in relation with the scenario you are living on but it is important to get a good Situational Awareness. If you do not know what is going on sometimes is better to perform an RTB.

It is a difficult game, nobody said it was going to be easy to play around ...