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#3920970 - 03/06/14 08:36 AM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: BlueHeron]  
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jaydee Offline
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Originally Posted By: BlueHeron
Normally I'd say yes, but I've already dumped far more money on this project than I would on any other flight sim. Gotta draw the line somewhere.

Exactly this !


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#3921023 - 03/06/14 01:06 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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Para_Bellum Offline
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I already backed the original kickstarter project.

Until that content is released I see no reason to support another project.


"...late afternoon the Air Tasking Order came in [and] we found the A-10 part and we said, "We are going where!? We are doing what!?"

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#3921130 - 03/06/14 05:20 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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I'd back it if it was for a new theatre/planes etc...

#3921272 - 03/06/14 10:44 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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They need to finish what they started with the intial backing and deliver a quality product before they ask for more. So as of right now, no.


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#3921464 - 03/07/14 01:33 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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Mr_Dirt Offline
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I have already supported the current kickstarter. I also would like to see results for spending any more money.

#3921467 - 03/07/14 01:43 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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komemiute Offline
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I'd do it probably for the same sum I did. 20$. Not more, it's a sum I won't personally miss and it would grant enough content to keep me happy should it ever be released.


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#3921474 - 03/07/14 02:08 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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Yanagi Offline
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Nope and Nope.

I pledged $20, but had a rethink and reduced it to $2, because I wasn't happy at the way things were handled during the KS campaign, but just to show some community spirit, as I don't have any confidence in it. If it works, great, if it doesn't - well I lost less than sometimes falls out of my pocket when I take my keys/hankie/phone out of my pocket.

Oh, and the hacking thing - like someone else, I only signed up for this thing, then get a mail my data is probably compromised. Lotsa trust building there.

And then there's the MiG-21 thing that I paid for and expected a very long time ago. Yes, they "made it so much better" and all that jive - but I paid for the MiG-21 because I was told it was nearly ready for release and some money was needed to pay a professional artist to put decent textures on it. That's why I paid. I wasn't asked if I wanted my money spending on other things or even if I agreed with them.

Then there's the Steam pre-release stuff I've backed and been left disappointed with. It's a risk you take, but one I won't take any more. I'm not rich enough.

I'll never support any kind of pre-release program again.


Yia su
#3921493 - 03/07/14 02:39 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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The two games I bought on Steam pre-release, Arma 3 and Assetto Corsa, have turned out great. AC isn't released yet, but is already in great shape. A3 is excellent.

The 2 I've backed thru "standard" crowdfunding, MiG-21 and Takedown, have not lived up to expectations yet. TD was a mess caused by lack of funding (the whole "this will get us the real funding we need" seemed to fall down and they'd did NOT get all that they needed), and MiG-21 seems a victim of feature creep.

It's been two years since I did any KS or IG and I don't plan on it again anytime soon. I would probably do the Steam Early Access again if it was a title I was confident in.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3921542 - 03/07/14 03:48 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: GrimLeo]  
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AggressorBLUE Offline
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Originally Posted By: GrimLeo
Gave RRG Studios $40 in the first Kick. Regret having done so.

1) The Kickstarter jerks got themselves hacked. I started an account with them just for DCS WWII. Now I have exposure. Granted nobody on Earth with a bank account is not exposed. The only thing protecting you from identity theft these days is the hackers being overwhelmed with massive numbers of stolen identities.

2) I don't believe in Kickstarter anymore. People are going to stop pledging. I think a number of funded efforts are going to die with lose of funds. Efforts like Star Citizen that vacuum up all the money also don't help.

3) I feed I got burned by supporting Interstellar Marines (Taking forever) and MWO (No Community Warfare, price gouging). Granted neither were Kickstarter.

4) Will ED and RRG be able to take payment from US/EU customers in a months time?



It seems your comment is aimed less at kickstarter specifically, and more at "crowd funding" in general. You still have some fair points, but I raise you Kerbal Space program: An amazing title that no major publisher would EVER have take a risk on. It wasn't a Kickstarter project, but you still were buying into early alpha access as a crowd funded effort. It has come so far and gained so much momentum it's amazing. This is truly a win for the crowd-funding initiative. Several racing sims (such as the aforementioned AC) are also coming along nicely. I've also seen my $100 send to Battle of Stalingrad being put to good use, with each early access session showing a glimpse of what could well be the next great WWII sim.

And I do think (and hope) the "fad" aspect of crowd funding is dieing. What will be left is a more mature version of it. Right now everyone seems to think that you're basically pre-ordering a product when you put cash down. Thats not the case at all. Your basically a mini-venture capital provider, and as a VC knows, with every investment is risk. I sent $100 each to BoS and DCS WWII, knowing full well that it was always possible I'd never see anything back from either. I did this because I love this hobby, and flight sim products are becoming a dieing breed. I'd certainly have the right to be angry at the dev teams if they failed to deliver, but it wouldn't be fair to hold KS (or crowd funding in general) responsible. If nothing else, I want developers to know there are people willing to put some serious cash into these titles, and not be scared off from a niche market.

As far as a new DCS WII Kickstarter, I said "yes" to the poll, as I'm not close minded to the idea, but I'd want to see more details and deliverables.


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#3921592 - 03/07/14 06:25 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: AggressorBLUE]  
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MACADEMIC Offline
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Originally Posted By: AggressorBLUE
Originally Posted By: GrimLeo
Gave RRG Studios $40 in the first Kick. Regret having done so.

1) The Kickstarter jerks got themselves hacked. I started an account with them just for DCS WWII. Now I have exposure. Granted nobody on Earth with a bank account is not exposed. The only thing protecting you from identity theft these days is the hackers being overwhelmed with massive numbers of stolen identities.

2) I don't believe in Kickstarter anymore. People are going to stop pledging. I think a number of funded efforts are going to die with lose of funds. Efforts like Star Citizen that vacuum up all the money also don't help.

3) I feed I got burned by supporting Interstellar Marines (Taking forever) and MWO (No Community Warfare, price gouging). Granted neither were Kickstarter.

4) Will ED and RRG be able to take payment from US/EU customers in a months time?



It seems your comment is aimed less at kickstarter specifically, and more at "crowd funding" in general. You still have some fair points, but I raise you Kerbal Space program: An amazing title that no major publisher would EVER have take a risk on. It wasn't a Kickstarter project, but you still were buying into early alpha access as a crowd funded effort. It has come so far and gained so much momentum it's amazing. This is truly a win for the crowd-funding initiative. Several racing sims (such as the aforementioned AC) are also coming along nicely. I've also seen my $100 send to Battle of Stalingrad being put to good use, with each early access session showing a glimpse of what could well be the next great WWII sim.

And I do think (and hope) the "fad" aspect of crowd funding is dieing. What will be left is a more mature version of it. Right now everyone seems to think that you're basically pre-ordering a product when you put cash down. Thats not the case at all. Your basically a mini-venture capital provider, and as a VC knows, with every investment is risk. I sent $100 each to BoS and DCS WWII, knowing full well that it was always possible I'd never see anything back from either. I did this because I love this hobby, and flight sim products are becoming a dieing breed. I'd certainly have the right to be angry at the dev teams if they failed to deliver, but it wouldn't be fair to hold KS (or crowd funding in general) responsible. If nothing else, I want developers to know there are people willing to put some serious cash into these titles, and not be scared off from a niche market.

As far as a new DCS WII Kickstarter, I said "yes" to the poll, as I'm not close minded to the idea, but I'd want to see more details and deliverables.


My experience with RRGs Kickstarter was my first, and by their actions (or inactions) I have come to see the biggest flaw in the concept. During the Kickstarter there was frantic activity to secure the funding. Inspite of many promises, nearly all communications stopped as soon as the money was in the bag. That leaves the backers in complete doubt as what is happening with the money, are they making progress, and what about those rewards that were never delivered?

Kickstarter explicitly says that there are no refunds and each backer has an individual contract with the creator. You could always sue for breach of contract, but unless you're a lawyer and want to do it as a matter of principle, for most this would be out of the question. Too complicated, too expensive.

A solution could be, that instead of paying out the pledges amounts instantly, the funds would go in the crowdfunding company's escrow system. Installments would be made over time instead of immediately. Any backer could decide that the creators activities aren't satisfactory and pull out at any time, receiving what's left of his funding amount. At the same time, it should be possible to increase backing, or jump on board during development.

But as long as such solution isn't available, I probably wouldn't back a Kickstarter again.

MAC

P.S.: Also have Premium PreBuy for IL2, but that's a different league I think.

#3921603 - 03/07/14 07:01 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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Mastiff Offline
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#3921616 - 03/07/14 07:39 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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GrimLeo Offline
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AggressorBLUE:
I am a VC. I invested $40 and expect a return of investment of the DCS WWII software. If I was Bain Capital, I expect 3 to 1 per year monetary returns and I can pull funding at anytime.

Your right, there are some Eagles that wouldn't get funding otherwise. The problem is the number of Turkeys. The company doing the DCS F-35 Kick campaign went bankrupt after the failed Kick. I think it was unethical for them to even start a campaign. A Bain would know the condition of the company being invested in. A crowd fund investor usually does not.

I have a problem with the upper brackets of pledges. I want an monetary return on a $10,000 investment. I also don't want to deal with a $10,000 identity thief charge cause some hacker wants to support Bash Zombie Bash.

As for RRG, I hope they succeed, but they need to put something out before doing another Kick campaign. Also plan out the campaign. No bloopers.

#3921632 - 03/07/14 08:22 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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You know, I forgot about BoS. However, I consider that one to be like AC or Arma3, as a preorder with access to a prerelease build(s), because the implication is "these things are getting made no matter what, but you can pay now instead of waiting for release and mess with the early versions."

Takedown and MiG-21 were crowdfunded and the difference was them saying "if we don't get enough money this isn't going to come at all."
So there is inherently more risk with those 2.

I'm still not sure where to put DCS WWII. It certainly seems to be in the same category as the latter 2, it didn't look like it was going to come out no matter the success or failure of the KS, I don't recall luthier's exact wording. But I would say there's definitely more risk with it than there is with BoS which I'm already flying an early version of on weekends.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3922059 - 03/09/14 12:18 AM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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No because I have already backed them, and the fact that we still get updates through kickstarter..(BUILD A WEB PAGE) and that there thread in the DCS forums seems abandoned by them. I don't think I can read about another one of Ilya's travels... seems to do alot of traveling. I think RRG needs a lesson in marketing maybe from Mr. Chris Roberts, I'm pretty sure Ilya's kickstarter would have been more successful......

Last edited by ATAG_Injerin; 03/09/14 12:18 AM.
#3922130 - 03/09/14 07:09 AM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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Ghost0815 Offline
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At the moment, NO - i have backed DCS:MiG-21Bis and DCSWWII and both have problem with comunication and release.

I would preorder a module (like FC3, UH-1H or Mi-8MTV2), if i got direct access to the beta, but i will never again through money on a project and need to wait years before i have access to an ALPHA or BETA!

#3922168 - 03/09/14 11:17 AM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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SimHog Offline
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People need to realise your NOT investing with Kickstarter, you're donating to a project, there's a big difference.

#3922180 - 03/09/14 12:04 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: SimHog]  
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MACADEMIC Offline
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Originally Posted By: AirHog71
People need to realise your NOT investing with Kickstarter, you're donating to a project, there's a big difference.


While you're right it's not an investment, it's not a donation either, unless you choose not to ask for any of the offered rewards. It's a contract between you and the creator, enforcable by law (in theory, though rarely done).

MAC

#3922199 - 03/09/14 01:31 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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GrimLeo Offline
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There is a Quid Pro Quo relationship. I think binding contract is questionable.

#3922207 - 03/09/14 02:13 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: GrimLeo]  
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MACADEMIC Offline
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MACADEMIC  Offline
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Malta
Originally Posted By: GrimLeo
There is a Quid Pro Quo relationship. I think binding contract is questionable.


From the Kickstarter FAQs:

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

...and this is what projector creators see before they launch a project:



MAC

Last edited by MACADEMIC; 03/09/14 02:13 PM.
#3922277 - 03/09/14 06:05 PM Re: Would you support a new Kickstarter drive? [Re: HeinKill]  
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GrimLeo Offline
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These articles are interesting: When Kickstarter Investors Want Their Money Back and Neil Singh Sets Record Straight on Kickstarter Lawsuit. The articles are over a year old. I have issues with both sides.

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