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#3909047 - 02/08/14 05:03 PM Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips?  
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nhill40 Offline
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I've heard anecdotal evidence both ways (some people say it helps, some say they don't really notice a diff), but would someone with a config they like post some tips?

I understand the basic principle - able to tie exe's to particular cores - but I don't really understand the methodology behind deciding what goes on which core.

#3909052 - 02/08/14 05:27 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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Madmatt Offline
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Here are my settings with my I5 3570k Quad core CPU (overclocked to 4.3Ghz) running Windows 7 x64. These may not work for you, so adjust for your specific chipset.

Launch Processor Lasso.

Launch WOFF

Launch a mission or QC.

Alt-Tab overto Process Lasso

Go to Active Process's.

You should see CFS3.exe[32] listed. The [32] indicates that is only a 32 bit application.

The ONLY adjustment I have made is to let CFS3.exe run on half (2) my available four cores. If I run on just one I get very poor performance.

Priority Class > Always > set to High
CPU Affinity > Always > set to 2-3 (this locks it to just run on two CPU cores of the 4 I have available 0-3.
Check Exclude from ProBalance restraint.
Check Classify as game or media player process.

Now Click "Main" at top of Proces Lasso Screen to open drop down menu.
Check ProBalance Enabled
Check Gaming and Multimedia Mode.

That's all I have done. I could have restricted WOFF to less than 4 cores too but since it waits for CFS3 to close out (when you finish a mission) to do anything, it's not really doing anything while CFS3 (the game engine) is running.

You could also limit TrackIR (You will find that under All Processes) to a single core or two, but I haven't gone to that level of tweaking yet because I don't get any real performance issues any more. I don't even always launch Process Lasso anymore, but most often I will prior to launching WOFF. By changing the settings for the Affinity and Priority in the ALWAYS category, you don't have to do it every time you play the game.

I could go into much greater detail on WHY the settings do what they do, but why don't you just try it as I listed above first and report back your experience and if you need more info I can provide it.

Madmatt


I used to make computer games for a living so you didn't have to!

My Rig:
CPU: i7 7700K o/c to 5Ghz
GPU: EVGA FTW3 RTX 3080
RAM: 32GB G.SKILL RGB DDR4 (3600MHz)
OS: Win10 x64
Storage: 2 x Samsung 960 Pro M.2 1TB SSD's, Samsung 870 QVO 2TB SATA SSD, 1 WD Passport 2TB USB HDD
Display: ASUS 34" PG348Q, ASUS 27" VG278HE
Thrustmaster A-10 Warthog HOTAS, MFG Crossfire Rudder Pedals, CH Pro Throttle
TrackIR, Oculus Quest 2
#3909070 - 02/08/14 06:14 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: Madmatt]  
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nhill40 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Madmatt
Here are my settings with my I5 3570k Quad core CPU (overclocked to 4.3Ghz) running Windows 7 x64. These may not work for you, so adjust for your specific chipset.

Launch Processor Lasso.

Launch WOFF

Launch a mission or QC.

Alt-Tab overto Process Lasso

Go to Active Process's.

You should see CFS3.exe[32] listed. The [32] indicates that is only a 32 bit application.

The ONLY adjustment I have made is to let CFS3.exe run on half (2) my available four cores. If I run on just one I get very poor performance.

Priority Class > Always > set to High
CPU Affinity > Always > set to 2-3 (this locks it to just run on two CPU cores of the 4 I have available 0-3.
Check Exclude from ProBalance restraint.
Check Classify as game or media player process.

Now Click "Main" at top of Proces Lasso Screen to open drop down menu.
Check ProBalance Enabled
Check Gaming and Multimedia Mode.

That's all I have done. I could have restricted WOFF to less than 4 cores too but since it waits for CFS3 to close out (when you finish a mission) to do anything, it's not really doing anything while CFS3 (the game engine) is running.

You could also limit TrackIR (You will find that under All Processes) to a single core or two, but I haven't gone to that level of tweaking yet because I don't get any real performance issues any more. I don't even always launch Process Lasso anymore, but most often I will prior to launching WOFF. By changing the settings for the Affinity and Priority in the ALWAYS category, you don't have to do it every time you play the game.

I could go into much greater detail on WHY the settings do what they do, but why don't you just try it as I listed above first and report back your experience and if you need more info I can provide it.

Madmatt


Holy crap! Thanks for the detailed response!

This is great my only question is that I'm running an i7-4770k (not OC'd, just whatever the stock speed is, which I think may be 3.4GHz) - so I'm dealing with 8 cores (well, probably 4 cores, 8 threads). Is there any particular cores I should be targeting? I know you've targeted your "last" 2 cores, should I be targeting my "last" 4 or something?

Thank you again! What I really need to do is talk my wife into room in the budget for a new GPU (running a GTX 570 w/1.2GB RAM - a little anemic for WOFF)

#3909082 - 02/08/14 06:34 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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Madmatt Offline
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That's still a quad core processor. If you see 8 threads available then you have Hyperthreading enabledin your Bios and you should thing about disabling it. That setting gives you "double" the amount of threads, but they are virtual threads and would only be used when doing things like high end CAD rendering or Photoshop or stuff of that nature. For gaming, hyperthreading typically does nothing and can even degrade performance some.

As to the choice of cores to use for CFS3, doesn't really matter much since without tweaking anything Windows will try and use all cores for all apps running. I just used my last 2 for ease of remembering. On your 8 cores, I would just use the last two (6-7) and monitor their usage. If you need another core or two, go ahead and assign it.

For me, I watch the Process Lasso screen as I play the game (I have dual monitors so easy to do) and I may see both my #2-3 cores use jump to 80% or so, but neither ever hits 100% so I know I am fine.

If I REALLY wanted to tweak things, I would change all running apps to ignore one or both of the cores I told CFS3 to use but I don't really think it would be worth the time to do this.


Madmatt


I used to make computer games for a living so you didn't have to!

My Rig:
CPU: i7 7700K o/c to 5Ghz
GPU: EVGA FTW3 RTX 3080
RAM: 32GB G.SKILL RGB DDR4 (3600MHz)
OS: Win10 x64
Storage: 2 x Samsung 960 Pro M.2 1TB SSD's, Samsung 870 QVO 2TB SATA SSD, 1 WD Passport 2TB USB HDD
Display: ASUS 34" PG348Q, ASUS 27" VG278HE
Thrustmaster A-10 Warthog HOTAS, MFG Crossfire Rudder Pedals, CH Pro Throttle
TrackIR, Oculus Quest 2
#3909104 - 02/08/14 07:33 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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yaan98 Offline
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I bought the full version in December last year.

During installation, I left all recommended settings at their defaults. My settings are the same as Madmatt, with the following differences:

CFS3.exe: I/O priority -> always -> high
WOFF: Priority Class > Always > set to Above Normal
TRACKIR: Priority Class > Always > set to Above Normal
I did not adjust anything on the core affinity. On my system, I had degradation of performance with limiting to cores.

I always have it on running minimized with game mode on.

I would only disable hyperthreading or any c-states in the bios if you are considering to overclock your cpu.

The performance difference with this program is just like every other software program. It depends on your particular system. Even with the same systems, there can be variability. For me, it has made a noticeable difference from the beginning since December (before patch 1.11), so I left it on my system.

I don't have any urge to experiment with it now.

#3909131 - 02/08/14 09:15 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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nhill40 Offline
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Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

Matt, would you mind posting some of your favorite/pet monitoring tools? I would love to use these to learn more/get more scientific with my tweaking.

#3909134 - 02/08/14 09:22 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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I have had the full version for many years now. Priority Class assignments used to make a big difference, but with my moves to newer and better computers I'm really only just using it now to limit the core assignments as the only way to get CFS3 to run on my Win 7 Quad Core machine.


Service To The Line,
On The Line,
On Time

US Army Ordnance Corps.
#3909211 - 02/09/14 12:37 AM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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I just wanted to say a quick thanks for everyone's feedback. I just went all out & hooked up a second monitor (much to my wife's chagrin - she's already tired of my joystick/throttle/rudder/etc being all over the place!) and did some real time monitoring with nVidia Inspector + Project Lasso.

Much to my surprise (I'll be honest, I thought Matt was a little crazy w/his assessment that my 570 was a capable card - I think I was blinded with 7-series envy!), my issue was the CPU was absolutely pegged. At least where I have my settings @ right now, my GPU (both processor & memory) was humming along at about 50% capacity - hardly breaking a sweat. That would have been a BIG mistake to chase an upgrade.

I fiddled around with CPU affinity via Lasso & have WOFF absolutely humming again!

My guess is most people will (with good reason) not read this thread, but if anyone else chasing better performance happens to be reading this, do *NOT* make my mistake & waste time groping around in the dark. Get yourself some monitoring tools and see what is actually happening - it's not that hard once you are equipped with the right tools (which are free, for the most part!)

This is probably old news to the pros, but I imagine some people are like myself and are sorta learning the tricks of the trade as we go along!

Thanks again!

#3909339 - 02/09/14 06:10 AM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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Madmatt Offline
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Hey that's great news! Glad to see you haven't thrown out the old 570 just yet. I knew it was a good card because I had one myself for a long time and it kept up with nearly everything I threw at it. Upgraded to a 670 about a year ago, and then just a month ago all the up to my current 780 Ti. All great and powerful cards!

As to my monitoring apps of choice, i use several.

On my Logitech G510 Keyboard there is a LCD panel that is built in which can display info if a program was designed to output to it. I have a readout generated from EVGA's PrecisionX program. Thats really the only thing I run all the time to monitor performance. I have it setup to show GPU Mem in use, % of GPU in use, current Framerate, temp, fan speed, GPU speed and VRAM speed and a few other details.

I sometimes will run Core Temp which can also display on the LCD panel. It's great to watch CPU overhead and core temperatures but doesn't quite give the same non cpu specific info that I like to see.

I also like both GPU-Z and CPU-Z.

Process Lasso of course is a nice to leave up if you want to see what is really going on under the hood at the processor core level.

For accurate benchmarking I might run FRAPs, but it tends to use a lot of resources on its own (especially if you are recording videos!) so doesnt always give them best representation of a gamers true performance.

i also have a Memory monitoring program, but I can't recall the name (Update, that program is called RAMMon). I'm not on my gaming system at the moment so dont have access to it but once I get home I will get the name. I like this program because it scans each memory module and will give extremely detailed information on it including manufacturer's recommended timings fo that specific brand and type of memory module. Helpful when you are trying to overclock everything.

Hope this info helps!

Madmatt


Last edited by Madmatt; 02/09/14 07:45 PM.

I used to make computer games for a living so you didn't have to!

My Rig:
CPU: i7 7700K o/c to 5Ghz
GPU: EVGA FTW3 RTX 3080
RAM: 32GB G.SKILL RGB DDR4 (3600MHz)
OS: Win10 x64
Storage: 2 x Samsung 960 Pro M.2 1TB SSD's, Samsung 870 QVO 2TB SATA SSD, 1 WD Passport 2TB USB HDD
Display: ASUS 34" PG348Q, ASUS 27" VG278HE
Thrustmaster A-10 Warthog HOTAS, MFG Crossfire Rudder Pedals, CH Pro Throttle
TrackIR, Oculus Quest 2
#3909509 - 02/09/14 05:48 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: Madmatt]  
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nhill40 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Madmatt
Hey that's great news! Glad to see you haven't thrown out the old 570 just yet. I knew it was a good card because I had one myself for a long time and it kept up with nearly everything I threw at it. Upgraded to a 670 about a year ago, and then just a month ago all the up to my current 780 Ti. All great and powerful cards!

As to my monitoring apps of choice, i use several.

On my Logitech G510 Keyboard there is a LCD panel that is built in which can display info if a program was designed to output to it. I have a readout generated from EVGA's PrecisionX program. Thats really the only thing I run all the time to monitor performance. I have it setup to show GPU Mem in use, % of GPU in use, current Framerate, temp, fan speed, GPU speed and VRAM speed and a few other details.

I sometimes will run Core Temp which can also display on the LCD panel. It's great to watch CPU overhead and core temperatures but doesn't quite give the same non cpu specific info that I like to see.

I also like both GPU-Z and CPU-Z.

Process Lasso of course is a nice to leave up if you want to see what is really going on under the hood at the processor core level.

For accurate benchmarking I might run FRAPs, but it tends to use a lot of resources on its own (especially if you are recording videos!) so doesnt always give them best representation of a gamers true performance.

i also have a Memory monitoring program, but I can't recall the name. I'm not on my gaming system at the moment so dont have access to it but once I get home I will get the name. I like this program because it scans each memory module and will give extremely detailed information on it including manufacturer's recommended timings fo that specific brand and type of memory module. Helpful when you are trying to overclock everything.

Hope this info helps!

Madmatt



Yes, it does help - thanks again for the info.

Yes, chasing another video card at this stage would have been silly (and that was where I was headed!) I ratcheted up my card settings (bumped up AA & AF) and it barely made a dent in the GPU/memory load!

Others have said this before me, but seeing the performance in real time first hand I can say WOFF performance is *definitely* CPU dependent. I've got CFS3.exe pegged to 2 of my real (i.e. non-HT) cores and both of those cores are running consistently at 50-75% utilization (at least per the green bars in Project Lasso).

I think the right course for me is definitely over clocking.

#3909947 - 02/10/14 06:51 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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On the topic of CPU/GPU utilization, how much credit do you guys give to the idea of a "balanced" machine (i.e. you would not want a fast CPU paired w/a slow GPU, or vice versa)?

I'm asking because when I watch my CPU utilization (via Process Lasso), I see the cores I've got WOFF assigned to run on pretty well maxed out, but my GPU is clicking along pretty comfortably (probably around 40% GPU usage, maybe 75% RAM usage).

My CPU is reasonably powerful - i7-4770k (not OC'd - default clock speed is 3.5GHz, turbo boost up to 3.9GHz), probably more powerful relative to my video card, which is a GTX 570 with 1.2GB RAM.

#3909979 - 02/10/14 07:17 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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yaan98 Offline
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I believe that it depends on the game you play... to paraphrase a famous proverb... not all games are created equal.

Some will use more cpu and others will use more gpu. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that CFS3 was always CPU dependent. My WOFF and Skyrim take up roughly the same amount of space on my SSD (over 30 Gigs each!eek2 ). But I can't play skyrim on a core duo no matter what settings I put, while I can play WOFF on the same machine with minimal settings.

#3909991 - 02/10/14 07:34 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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Madmatt Offline
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I've built quite a few customized gaming rigs for friends, family and myself and I would have to say that a good rule of thumb to keep in mind is that any program, game or application will only run as good as your slowest component.

There is little point in having a cutting edge CPU if your video card constantly struggles to keep up. What you want is parity between all of your components. And it's more than just comparing CPU and GPU speeds, although they are key. You need an equivalent I/O foundation as well so you want to get fast harddrives, and keep them optimized. You will want to spend a few extra bucks on decent memory and always get a motherboard that allows you to get all the performance out of your devices (Asrock, Asus, Abit are all excellent and my faves, but there are many others that are just as good).

You have a 4770K CPU and there is no reason to not overclock it. I don't know what Motherboard you have, but if it's even a semi decent one, and you take the time to do it right, then you should be able to hit 4.2Ghz or faster without too much trouble (and you could try even faster if you get a decent aftermarket CPU cooling solution). On stock cooling I wouldn't try and push much past 4.2 to be honest and the 4770K's aren't the best overclockers to begin with. Even if you can only get to 4.2, thats 700Mhz for free. And you WILL notice a difference between 3.5 and 4.2Ghz! There is something magical when you cross over that 4Ghz threshold. smile

By the way, do you have Turbo mode enabled in your motherboards BIOS? Its usually a 10% across the board boost over stock speeds, but you do have to turn it on! (check your motherboard manual to locate the setting in your BIOS).

Here is a guide to help on overclocking:
http://www.overclockersclub.com/guides/overclock_intel_4770k_guide/

Now, all of that said, in the real world you will on occasion come upon a specific game or program that is more GPU or CPU centric than others (WOFF and OFF were both very CPU limited, because of their older graphics engine being from CFS3) but regardless, having a balanced rig will pay off substantial dividends in most cases.

In my opinion, here is the order of importance for various devices.

* GPU --a fast video card can compensate for a slower CPU in many situations, but there are limits to what it can do.
* CPU -- Try and get one that allows for good overclocking, may not always be the latest!
* Hard Drives -- SSD's can have an immediate performance boost! Highly recommended!
* Motherboard -- Often overlooked, don't skimp by getting a generic motherboard. Get one that you can expand upon and that is good for overclocking.
* System Mem -- It's harder to detect difference between regular memory and high end memory, but costs are so low now that it's worth it to get higher rated memory and get as much as you can. I recommend 12GB or more if you are running a x64 OS.
OS - If you haven't yet, make sure you move up to a 64bit OS. Windows 7 x64 is my personal OS of choice but 8.1 is posting some impressive improvements in gaming speed recently, although I am still not crazy about the look of it...

It's not uncommon for me to change my video card every year or so, but I often can get 2 years or more out of my CPU's and motherboards. Now that I have a GTX 780 TI Superclock Edition, I don't plan on getting a new video card for a few years though... Lets see if that ends up being the case. wink

For the record, even on my faster overclocked 3570k CPU, I too see my cores frequently topping 90% with WOFF running. It's certainly CPU hungry! I'd be curious to see how your I7 CPU would compare to my older I5 running at the same speed...

Hope some of this helps!

Madmatt

Last edited by Madmatt; 02/10/14 07:48 PM. Reason: added more stuff!

I used to make computer games for a living so you didn't have to!

My Rig:
CPU: i7 7700K o/c to 5Ghz
GPU: EVGA FTW3 RTX 3080
RAM: 32GB G.SKILL RGB DDR4 (3600MHz)
OS: Win10 x64
Storage: 2 x Samsung 960 Pro M.2 1TB SSD's, Samsung 870 QVO 2TB SATA SSD, 1 WD Passport 2TB USB HDD
Display: ASUS 34" PG348Q, ASUS 27" VG278HE
Thrustmaster A-10 Warthog HOTAS, MFG Crossfire Rudder Pedals, CH Pro Throttle
TrackIR, Oculus Quest 2
#3910139 - 02/11/14 01:35 AM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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That does help, thanks once again for the detailed information.

I think I'll definitely be pursuing some overclocking - unfortunately, I did go cheap and went for a cheap board:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130695

In my defense, (1) I got a good "bundle" deal on it w/my CPU and (2) overclocking wasn't really even on my radar at the time, so the $$$ savings seemed like a good move!

Not really expecting it to work, I tried MSI's "OC Genie" just to see what it would do - I had to flash the bios first - first time I tried it, the whole machine locked up and wouldn't even POST! Tried again after a BIOS update and - although the machine would start up - it was unusable (processor never went faster than 800MHz!)

I'm guessing the right thing to do is to follow the meticulous steps laid out in that link you posted & be braced for a new MoBo in the near future.

#3910143 - 02/11/14 01:49 AM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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Madmatt Offline
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MSi's arent bad boards. Just start off small and go into your BIOS and make sure Turbo mode is enabled. That could be a 10% boost with clicking one button. After that, look at just increasing the clock speed a little at a time. Dont do huge increments. You need to raise a setting, then play on your computer as normal to make sure its stable. When you are comfortable, change the settings to bump it up a little bit more (maybe +100mhz at a time).

Newer motherboards even have some predefined settings you can select which will allow to choose what speed you want to run at. Thats also an easy way to try out bigger speed increases without having to change a host of settings.

Keep an eye on heat too as you really dont have to go much higher than maybe 40-50C at idle with stock cooling. If your chips are at idle and hotter than you really need to look at a better CPU cooler and there are tons to choose from. I use a CoolerMaster Hyper 212 EVO with dual push-pull fans. My idle temps are below 30C but I have taken many steps to optimize my cooling with proper case airflow, fan type and placement and internal component layout.

Madmatt


I used to make computer games for a living so you didn't have to!

My Rig:
CPU: i7 7700K o/c to 5Ghz
GPU: EVGA FTW3 RTX 3080
RAM: 32GB G.SKILL RGB DDR4 (3600MHz)
OS: Win10 x64
Storage: 2 x Samsung 960 Pro M.2 1TB SSD's, Samsung 870 QVO 2TB SATA SSD, 1 WD Passport 2TB USB HDD
Display: ASUS 34" PG348Q, ASUS 27" VG278HE
Thrustmaster A-10 Warthog HOTAS, MFG Crossfire Rudder Pedals, CH Pro Throttle
TrackIR, Oculus Quest 2
#3910158 - 02/11/14 02:34 AM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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Wodin Offline
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Madmatt you only get 2 years out of your motherboard!! Blimey I usually get four or more. Graphics card every couple of years.

My daughter has a six core processor with a Asus MB which has DDR3 and Sata 3 etc etc and it's over two years old coming upto to three years but still got all the tech of new boards. Personally an MB should alt you four years and the amount of cores cpu's have these days should als a fair while too..software is still way behind esp game swhen it comes to using all cores. Years ago you did need to keep updating every two years..but not these days.

#3911049 - 02/13/14 02:44 AM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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nhill40 Offline
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I'm beginning my overclock odyssey tonight (real life has severely cut into my WOFF time budget over the last few days!) In theory I shouldn't be too nervous - despite my noob-ish questions, I'm actually a professional programmer & have spent most of my life tinkering on computers (I've just never OC'd anything).

I'm going to go all out following the steps in the link posted by madmatt & hopefully try to learn something in the process. I'm beginning with a memory test just to see what it looks like - I'll report back with the results (I'm sure everyone is waiting with bated breath to learn how it goes! biggrin )

Last edited by nhill40; 02/13/14 02:45 AM.
#3911394 - 02/13/14 08:11 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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Just a quick update (my thinking is if there is anyone else out there that has considered trying to OC but hasn't had the guts/time, this thread might give some insights into what you are in for) -

Ran memtest86 on my machine last night and ended up passing w/no errors. A couple notes:

* I started with the most recent version (5.0), but running the default test (mostly because I didn't know what else I would want to run!) was going to take something like 32 hrs on my machine, so...

* I ended up running the older version (4.3 something) depicted in the overclockersclub screenshot. This ended up running in something more like 90 minutes. I left it running overnight under the assumption that it would stop after the first iteration, but woke up this morning and learned it had made it through multiple test iterations over night! Whoops - oh well, I can be really sure I'm starting from a good place now, I guess!

I'm going to proceed tonight with running the prime95 test. This will allow me the double benefit of assessing if the CPU is stable and seeing how well my stock cooling is working.

#3911434 - 02/13/14 09:14 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: nhill40]  
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Madmatt Offline
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Those stress tests are certainly useful but sooner or later the best way to see how far and stable your system can handle is to just... well honestly to just overclock it some and play a game and see how it handles. wink

Madmatt


I used to make computer games for a living so you didn't have to!

My Rig:
CPU: i7 7700K o/c to 5Ghz
GPU: EVGA FTW3 RTX 3080
RAM: 32GB G.SKILL RGB DDR4 (3600MHz)
OS: Win10 x64
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#3911496 - 02/13/14 11:16 PM Re: Would someone mind posting their Project Lasso tips? [Re: Madmatt]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 187
nhill40 Offline
Member
nhill40  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 187
Originally Posted By: Madmatt
Those stress tests are certainly useful but sooner or later the best way to see how far and stable your system can handle is to just... well honestly to just overclock it some and play a game and see how it handles. wink

Madmatt


Yeah, I've heard similar advice and I believe this is perfectly valid/reasonable, but I consider it part of the education process (i.e. I'm learning some stuff about my system as I go).

I guess I'm willing to get "paid" for venturing down the more methodical route in education/experience. smile

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