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#3870304 - 12/02/13 12:51 PM Flightsim Fans  
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Para_Bellum Offline
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"Hey, remember the golden 90s, when they released a ton of fantastic combat flightsims? I tell you, the whole genre is dead now. Sad, isn't it?"

"Didn't you hear? SuperSim is developing a new flightsim, scheduled for next summer."

"SuperSim? I'll never buy anything from them again since the Mustang desaster."

"The Mustang desaster?"

"Don't you remember? In their 2003 release of 'Aces over Texas' the top speed of the P-51 was at least 5 mph too low at 25.000ft. Ruined the whole sim for me."

"Well, it wasn't SuperSim who developed that one but MegaFlight."

"Oh. Well...but to be honest I'm not too thrilled about a new WW2 sim anyway. Why is nobody making a good jet sim? I'd pay good money for that one."

"Actually it is a jet sim. Set in a late 80s 'cold war gone hot' scenario."

"Late 80s? Bummer. I'm more of a mid-70s fan."

"But what about the sequel to 'Wings over the Pacific'? Should be ready by next year, too."

"Wings? You gotta be kidding. They lost all credibility as a serious developer when they didn't include the Australian Auxiliary Women's Observation Balloon regiments."

"Well, they already did get a lot of stuff right and they're just a small team and..."

"Oh come on! How difficult could it be to just add the relevant stuff? Now I'm no software engineer but you know what I mean!"

"Uhm...yeah. And Fighter Pilot? The latest screenshots on their website looked awesome?"

"Fighter pilot? Come on... that thing has been in development for ages. Listen to my words, they will never release this. How should this work anyway? They have no publisher, no money..."

"Didn't you hear about their Kickstarter? They got a 100,000$ in less than two weeks."

"They did? Probably a scam."

"A scam? They just released an alpha version for their supporters."

"I see. Using customers to work as testers. What happened to the good old time when sim developers just released finished and awesome games?"

"You realize that the complexity and scope of modern games can hardly be compared to 20 year old games?"

"Well, according to the specs listed on their website I can't run that thing on my PC anyway. Pretty shame they can't optimize their engine."

"Your PC? You're not talking about that 8-year old laptop, aren't you?"

"What's wrong with it? I can still play 'Old Great Sim' just fine on it."

"Oookay..."

"Anyway, as I said, pretty sad that the whole genre is dead."





Last edited by Para_Bellum; 12/02/13 01:54 PM.

"...late afternoon the Air Tasking Order came in [and] we found the A-10 part and we said, "We are going where!? We are doing what!?"

Capt. Todd Sheehy, Hog pilot, on receiving orders during Operation Desert Storm

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#3870306 - 12/02/13 12:59 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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I've come to the conclusion that at worst women are still 100x more logical than some of these simmers.

I always laugh when someone says "I'm not going to pay X to upgrade my PC to play this sim." Well, frankly, if you're spending hundreds on sticks, Track IR, a cockpit, MFDs, and so on for ONE SIM, and then don't want to spend $300 for a better video card, or a better CPU, or $100 for RAM, you're in the WRONG HOBBY because you're doing it WRONG.

Those of us who aren't complaining about the upgrades are the ones who fly MANY sims and also play other games like RTS, racing, FPS, etc. So that $300 card split amongst 30 titles is a pretty small investment. I spend more on the software I use the hardware on. If all I played was ONE game I'd probably give up gaming too!




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#3870349 - 12/02/13 01:58 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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I think someone discussed this here before.... flight sims can be WWI, WWII, Vietnam/Cold War era, or modern. Then you have fixed-wing vs. rotary. Then you have "hardcore switchology" ala Falcon and DCS A-10C or the more "casual" such as Flaming Cliffs. Those factors alone split a niche community into smaller groups. What little money there is to be made in "flight sims" as a whole is difficult to attract devs as the interest is spread too thinly over a wide scope.

In comparison (and someone correct me if I'm wrong as I've not raced in years), racing sims are split into fewer categories and even then, most work only needs to be done on the model/liveries, and maybe alter the tracks a bit into era-specific layouts.

I would also suspect that making an AI for flight sims is much more complex than AI for racing sims.


Having said all of that, I would think a true fan would have the right frame of mind **NOT** to make the complaints in the OP's comedic post. That sounds more like a person who prefers to #%&*$#-and-moan rather than make a fair assessment of the game and appreciate what is available. Sure, there are people who complain if a model does not have the right stall speed at 35-degrees AoA at 15,000 feet with a full load of fuel, or those who complain about the right fuselage missing 3 rivets just before the tailwheel, but at this point they are not here to play flight sims but rather to critique the work of the developer.

Personally, I view all my PC purchases as investments (although I know they are not a true investment) that go towards my entertainment. Just as people buy big-screen TVs and hi-def speakers and comfy couches to watch a 5 blu-ray movie, I have spent a good deal to get my setup "just right" to play my flight sims. I got DCS A10C when it was in Beta 3 and played it for two years, with at least two flights per week at 4 hours per flight. Then I got Falcon 4 BMS and still play it, with at least two flights per week at 2 hours per flight.

I spent a lot of money to get my gear -- 3 display monitors, 1 touchscreen monitor for instruments, TrackIR 5 plus Track Clip Pro, Saitek rudders, Cougar MFDs (but don't use them now due to the touchscreen), TM Warthog, 2x TM Cougar, and a custom-made pit setup with a bucket seat -- but this means when I fly, everything is within reach, ergonomic and comfortable, and I can concentrate more on "flying and fighting" rather than remembering key combinations and such.

As much as I don't want to add up all my costs for the hardware, I am pretty convinced that when the cost is divided by the hours of gaming I am doing, it adds up to very cheap entertainment! And that's not even counting all the other games I play!


- Ice
#3870364 - 12/02/13 02:27 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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I just like to fly virtually, and I'll spend whatever amount to make that happen and make me happy. Pretty much sums it up for me.


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#3870374 - 12/02/13 02:54 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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I remember walking into Babbages/EB and half the store was PC Stuff, (Games, 3dFX Cards, SoundBlaster, etc), and more than half of the PC Games wall was flight Sims. (And most of it Jane's Combat Sims).

Jane's Combat.net :p

MS FS
Fleet Defender
Flanker 2.0


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#3870382 - 12/02/13 03:10 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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I think since sims went super hard-core realistic the market went to sh**... That appeals to so few compared with the rest of the computer game industry.


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#3870388 - 12/02/13 03:28 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: ArgonV]  
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Originally Posted By: ArgonV
I just like to fly virtually, and I'll spend whatever amount to make that happen and make me happy. Pretty much sums it up for me.


^this. As an example, last night I had about an hour or so free and decided I just wanted to hop onto one of the aerobatic servers for DCS:W, crank some tunes, and fly fast and low under as many bridges, power lines, and oil platforms as possible. Did I care about whether or not the N-001 radar was accurately simulated in terms of look-down/ shoot down capability, or whether the R-27ER bled energy in a 9G turn properly? Not in the least. I was just enjoying fulfilling my desire of flying high performance jets in a manner that is frowned upon by most air traffic control systems.


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#3870389 - 12/02/13 03:28 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: ArgonV]  
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Originally Posted By: ArgonV
I think since sims went super hard-core realistic the market went to sh**... That appeals to so few compared with the rest of the computer game industry.


Agreed.


I've always believed that flight sim makers should make their product as accessible as possible to as large an audience as possible. Offering a full range of flight model authenticity, weapons management complexity from as real as possible to full on arcade only makes financial sense as it increases the pool of potential customers exponentially.

I wonder if it would be practical to produce 2 versions of a flight sim both based on the same engine, an arcade version and a hardcore version, and sell the arcade version at a substantial discount? Say $39 for an arcade version and $59 for hardcore version? The 2 versions could be identical but with certain features locked in the arcade version, paying the additional $ would unlock those features if an arcade purchaser wanted to upgrade. Just a thought.


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#3870408 - 12/02/13 04:08 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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I've never tried it, but doesn't DCS A10C come with both an arcade version even with an arcade "radar map"? I remember reading about it on one of the quick-start PDFs. Still, there is a little learning curve, but not as much...

However, I always maintain that any interested party can learn DCS A10C or even Falcon BMS in about 10 hours of tutored flying. Note that when I say "learn," I mean from zero knowledge to being able to be effective in the battlefield and use the weapons. Inputting coordinates on the CDU for a new mark point or delving in the depths of the ICP sub-modes is obviously not covered. I say that with a solid base to work with (being able to navigate, assess threats, engage targets, then go home), the "newbie flight simmer" is now in a better position to RTFM and it won't "go over his head" as much.

NavyNuke, I do love flying low and fast in DCS using the Russian jets.... for some reason I don't find any interest in the Eagle. frown The funny thing was when learning to fly and fight in the SU-27 again, I found it disturbingly odd that there was no way to program countermeasure dispensing sequences, as I relied on this a lot in Falcon BMS. Just goes to show how different us flight simmers are and what we look for in a sim.


- Ice
#3870439 - 12/02/13 04:45 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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Arcade Mode is Pretty Much Ace Combat Mode...


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#3870443 - 12/02/13 04:56 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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I also agree that the complexity has thinned the flight simmer ranks. Back when PCs couldn't handle all the realism, I think they sort of gave the illusion that they were really technical, but were still simple enough for most people to get in and have fun with. People felt like they were flying missions in a fairly realistic way without having to learn every switch and knob. Now, they're just plain complicated in most cases.

When thinking about flight sim history, I always think of this show from 1990, where they talk about flight simulators. I get misty when I hear his opening comment about flight simulators having been the best-selling category for years... smile



Ken Cartwright

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#3870444 - 12/02/13 04:56 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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Hardcore sims didn't make the market go to crap. What made the market go to crap were game publishers going public and thus having the pressure to generate the highest profit margin for stock holders.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3870448 - 12/02/13 05:00 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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I don't think it was only one factor, but I think hardcore sims was a big part of it. And partly because of the profit pressures - making a realistic, hardcore sim with great graphics takes more time and money than making a simpler one, and those will appeal to a smaller audience, so you're spending more money for fewer sales - not a good combination.


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#3870467 - 12/02/13 05:22 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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Well, I'm sure if we had had flightsim forums back in the early 90s our sweet memories now would be tainted by the same inane arguments we have today. If only I had known how crappy and amateurish the modelling of the AH-64A in Gunship was...

wink


"...late afternoon the Air Tasking Order came in [and] we found the A-10 part and we said, "We are going where!? We are doing what!?"

Capt. Todd Sheehy, Hog pilot, on receiving orders during Operation Desert Storm

#3870470 - 12/02/13 05:27 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice

I would also suspect that making an AI for flight sims is much more complex than AI for racing sims.


It depends on how you mean complex and probably the type of games. I know for the flight sims I worked on that I had to do a wide variety of AI (A2A, A2G, CAP, landing, taking off, refueling,...) and I had to coordinate the units. So the complexity was more in the breath of AI and the interaction. If your game doesn't have all those different things going on, or it's a more casual game where people won't be looking at certain aspects too hard that can make things easier. If you're doing a really active world where everything can react to each other and a dynamic campaign as well you're effectively doing both a flight sim and an RTS.

The last thing we had started working on before EA shut down our studio was a NASCAR game. In this case one of the main issue was going to be how to deal with cars that were driving really close to each other and changing lines, particularly when you had them bunching up. Another was going to be how to get the AI to drive in a way that wouldn't seem out of place with the drivers they were supposed to be representing and make this data driven. The tolerances the AIs were going to have to deal with were going to be a lot tighter then what I had to deal with for flight sims. I had the feeling the AI on that project was going to be a lot more frustrating than the ones I had done for flight sims. I also was not looking forward to the forum posts telling me how driver X's lap times were 0.25s off and they would never take a particular line during the final turn of a certain track. Also strategies changed depending on the type of track and road courses really mixed things up. Also you'd have to have an AI handling when to come into the pits and there also can be cooperation between some of the drivers. For games where there are less cars and they'll usually be spread out and not trying to replicate real people they can get away with things being a bit looser.

Elf

#3870481 - 12/02/13 05:44 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Dogsbd]  
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Originally Posted By: Dogsbd

I've always believed that flight sim makers should make their product as accessible as possible to as large an audience as possible. Offering a full range of flight model authenticity, weapons management complexity from as real as possible to full on arcade only makes financial sense as it increases the pool of potential customers exponentially.


I think it depends on the amount of extra effort that's needed to create the different modes vs. the added number of sales that those modes would generate. If it's going to cost more money to put in the extra modes than those modes will generate it's not worth it. It can take a while to put the different modes in and sometimes they can have side effects which require a lot more work to balance things in the game. Then each combination needs to be tested fully. Also sometimes it could cause confusion where people would start in "easy" mode and forget that they could make the game harder later. I remember various discussions about if we were going to have different levels for things and how many but unfortunately I've forgotten the details. I remember for JF-15 we had a number of them but I think from the feedback we go it wasn't felt worth continuing for JF/A-18.

Elf

#3870491 - 12/02/13 05:52 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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I fly one mission every day.
I love it.

Wish they'd make a sim that you could manipulate the flight model to your liking.
But I'll take what I can.

I enjoy flying the P-51D.

I enjoy great graphics, and realistic visuals.

I fly IL2 once a day.....hacked and modded as much as I can, to my liking.
I'll never get over it. I like their flight model, the 'feel' of flight.

I would have paid anything they asked, for a version I could adjust to my liking....but I'll take what I can. The modders have done a great job, I appreciate what I have.

But, the late model Mustang had rockets on the wings....I have photos.....and now mine does too.
The P51D30NA...in game.
Sad it was so hard to get that, in the 'single player offline' game.
Like it was a sin......to enjoy a flight sim game.
Weird.


"Murphy's Law"
#3870504 - 12/02/13 06:20 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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There's no doubt that most of the flight sims from the 90's were not at the same level of complexity/realism as the DCS series or Rise of Flight but that's not the reason why flight sims don't sell as well as they used to. You have multiple genres now like MMO's and social media-type games that generate a lot more revenue than any kind of flight sim regardless of how "lite" it is.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3870517 - 12/02/13 06:40 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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A lot of thinking in this area is clouded by nostalgia, in a 'first serious girlfriend' sort of way. I know I sound like an ass for pointing it out, but generally more PC games are made today than ever before.

I would also expect that more flight-sims are sold today than ever before. The 90's sims had good writing and atmosphere, but then again so did Zork. A lot of it was the limitations of the time. Gaming, and playing on a PC is far far more popular than the 90's (by an order of magnitude, i.e. Steam had 7 million concurrent users yesterday), and a lot of younger players experiences are on console titles. Ace Combat sold around 4 million copies in its first release (forgetting the next five sequels!), while Microsprose's Falcon 4.0 (a classic) topped out at under 800,000 over its lifetime (just estimating, it's hard to get good numbers for older games). When *we* talk flight sims we think of F4, but for a whole other generation they have thoughts of Ace Combat 1 through to 6! It might just be a matter of personal perspective rather than hard data.

Now I don't think the flight sim game business is a good one to be in, but that's mainly because so many other game areas are just more popular / profitable. Doing a complex sim for love rather than money is a rarer thing for sure, so maybe that's the difference.

#3870590 - 12/02/13 08:27 PM Re: Flightsim Fans [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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Originally Posted By: Para_Bellum
Well, I'm sure if we had had flightsim forums back in the early 90s our sweet memories now would be tainted by the same inane arguments we have today. If only I had known how crappy and amateurish the modelling of the AH-64A in Gunship was...

wink





Huh? We did! I was there. Prodigy and Compuserve were the two primary hangouts until 1993 or so when P* dumped on people going pay-per-hour instead of flat rate. Gunship had its issues, but none as big as Falcon 3.0. That release on Dec 7 1991 (the 50th anniv of Pearl Harbor, I remember it well) was fraught with issues, including not being able to install it if you bought it on 5.25" floppies! The 3.5" ones worked, though. Took 2 years of patches and expansions to get it to something mostly playable.

I have a copy somewhere of a post I made about the 2nd patch for 1942:PAW in 1993 IIRC. Another forum goer had printed it out (since that was the only way to save them then) and then scanned it and emailed it to me about 10 yrs ago. I basically blasted the numerous shortcomings the 2nd patch did NOT fix to the tune of Monty Python's "Lumberjack Song."

Something along the lines of "I've got the 2nd patch, it's not ok, the frame rate problem is here to stay." They patched stalling out of the flight model and didn't bring it back, so you'd get this porpoising effect when you went nose high and slow...nose drops to level, speed goes up, nose goes up, speed goes down, nose drops to level, repeat.
You would regularly get shot down by your wingman shooting at the guy in front of you from your six, too.


Anyway, other than the number of participants in current forums here and at other sites around the web being larger and more international in nature, NOTHING has changed.

The only difference is back then you had more choices, so if you thought 1942: PAW sucked, you could fly AOTP instead. Didn't like SWOTL's sprites? Then get Chuck Yeager, it used polygons! Now, if you don't like CloD, you go back several years to Il-2:1946. If you don't like that, you have to go back years more to CFS3! Don't like that? Eh...you're back to the 1990s!




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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