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#3866759 - 11/23/13 06:49 AM Acid test  
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Damocles Offline
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There is, as Ian says, a lot to like about BoS, even in these early stages of development and it is clear to see it's RoF lineage. However the acid test, ultimately, will not be how the aircraft perform in isolation but how they compare, one to another. The feeling of flight in the Lagg is great and it performs in a believable manner. It will be interesting to see, and possibly the bit of the sim that the Developers will be most nervous about next week, how the lagg compares to the F4. With no shooting there will, inevitably, be lots of testing, one aircraft against the other, performance wise. Ultimately if there are found to be deficiencies in the FM's it will matter less if all the aircraft suffer to the same degree for the same reason than if they are isolated problems. To put it another way, it matters not if one aircraft rolls 2-3 seconds faster than it should,if they all roll 2-3 seconds faster than they should. The problems arise when errors in calculating FM's give a performance that negates the benefits, deficits of different aircraft. There was, rightly or wrongly a lot of griping about this in RoF, hopefully with far more fulsome data on the subject aircraft and far less guesswork we will be able to see the true nature of the digital nature engine and how well it performs given that there is far less guess work involved in creating the FM's. It would be interesting to hear from their creator, I'm sorry I forget his name, about how it compares producing the FM's for BoS as opposed to those for RoF. Presumably it's far, far easier.

#3866773 - 11/23/13 08:16 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Even if they create perfectly historical FM's for each aircraft, there will be a large portion of the community that believes it doesn't suit their version of reality. That said they don't have to make it perfect, because nobody can accurately say what perfect was. It just needs to be believable enough, within reason, for the majority on both sides of the conflict to enjoy the contest.


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#3866781 - 11/23/13 09:43 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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What Chivas said should be put in as a pop-up on all flightsim forums.
Amen.

#3866797 - 11/23/13 11:24 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Chivas]  
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
Even if they create perfectly historical FM's for each aircraft, there will be a large portion of the community that believes it doesn't suit their version of reality. That said they don't have to make it perfect, because nobody can accurately say what perfect was. It just needs to be believable enough, within reason, for the majority on both sides of the conflict to enjoy the contest.

^^This and ...THIS

#3866803 - 11/23/13 12:29 PM Re: Acid test [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted By: theOden
What Chivas said should be put in as a pop-up on all flightsim forums.
Amen.


Agreed 100%.


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#3866804 - 11/23/13 12:34 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Amazing ... well said!

#3866805 - 11/23/13 12:36 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Chivas]  
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
Even if they create perfectly historical FM's for each aircraft, there will be a large portion of the community that believes it doesn't suit their version of reality. That said they don't have to make it perfect, because nobody can accurately say what perfect was. It just needs to be believable enough, within reason, for the majority on both sides of the conflict to enjoy the contest.


Well said.

yep


"...late afternoon the Air Tasking Order came in [and] we found the A-10 part and we said, "We are going where!? We are doing what!?"

Capt. Todd Sheehy, Hog pilot, on receiving orders during Operation Desert Storm

#3866807 - 11/23/13 12:50 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Agree with the above posts.

I also hope the devs don't succumb to the 'make it fair' camp either, so that they avoid nerfing particular aspects of an aircraft type to make it more of an 'even' playing field for the online crowd.

WB.


I'm Spartacus.
#3866808 - 11/23/13 12:57 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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What Pat Wilson said about Rise of Flight is that no one expects the FMs to be perfect, they just can't be obviously wrong. But in Rise of Flight there are some FMs that are obviously wrong, and nothing was done to fix them before 777 moved on to BoS. I think that's what Damocles is getting at. It looks like some here have never played RoF, so maybe you wouldn't know.
seehearspeak

Still a lot of fun though. cheers

#3866811 - 11/23/13 01:19 PM Re: Acid test [Re: EAF_92 Whiskey]  
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Originally Posted By: EAF_92 Whiskey
Agree with the above posts.

I also hope the devs don't succumb to the 'make it fair' camp either, so that they avoid nerfing particular aspects of an aircraft type to make it more of an 'even' playing field for the online crowd.

WB.


This too.


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#3866880 - 11/23/13 04:55 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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They have specifically said in one of the videos that they are not interested in that kind of balance and that to kill an F4 in a LaGG you might need to get a pair of LaGGs above him.

#3866886 - 11/23/13 05:03 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Yes, no play balancing please. But I'm sure the dev's aren't interested in that.

I agree that the relative performance of the planes is the most important factor. Hopefully the dev's have learned from their ROF experience..... sigh


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#3866907 - 11/23/13 06:40 PM Re: Acid test [Re: RoFfan]  
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
What Pat Wilson said about Rise of Flight is that no one expects the FMs to be perfect, they just can't be obviously wrong. But in Rise of Flight there are some FMs that are obviously wrong, and nothing was done to fix them before 777 moved on to BoS. I think that's what Damocles is getting at. It looks like some here have never played RoF, so maybe you wouldn't know.
seehearspeak
Still a lot of fun though. cheers


I think that what he was saying though is that no matter how good you get it someone will think something is nerfed. I don't know anything about WWI aircraft performance so I can't comment on it .. but the WWII stuff has more documentation and from what I have seen over the years folks have brought up charts to verify even conflicting opinions on what a particular aircraft should or shouldn't do.. I think it will be easier to get it closer to reality in the WWII birds.


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#3866930 - 11/23/13 08:24 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Bearcat99]  
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Originally Posted By: Bearcat99
I think that what he was saying though is that no matter how good you get it someone will think something is nerfed. I don't know anything about WWI aircraft performance so I can't comment on it .. but the WWII stuff has more documentation and from what I have seen over the years folks have brought up charts to verify even conflicting opinions on what a particular aircraft should or shouldn't do.. I think it will be easier to get it closer to reality in the WWII birds.


That has nothing to do with Damocles' concern, sorry. You need to know about WW1 aviation and to have played Rise of Flight to understand.

#3866931 - 11/23/13 08:24 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Damocles Offline
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What I'm saying is that, to a certain extent the accuracy of the FM's is irrelevant.

The DCS P51 (until the 190 comes out)and Accusim aircraft in FSX can be as brilliant as you like and the developers can wax lyrical about the accuracy of the depiction, simmers can rave about this feature and that. However it isn't until you compare one aircraft to another, head to head, that the true accuracy of the depiction becomes clear.

For example, you might have a developer put out an aircraft that they claim is within plus or minus 10% of the performance of the actual aircraft. In other words it's 90% or more correct. That sounds impressive, and everyone may be thrilled with the aircraft and how it behaves (I know, I exaggerate, you can't please everyone all of the time, that would be foolish). Let's call this aircraft(a), unfortunately instead of having a top speed of 360 mph it can only fly at 330 mph, a deficit of about 8%, within the developers margin of error. This state of affairs presents no problems and everyone enjoys the feeling of flight, sounds, visuals, indeed the whole package is a roaring success. However the developers, a few months later, come out with aircraft(b), it also has the same high fidelity flight model and the package is produced to the same standard as the former. However aircraft(b) just happens to be 10% faster than it should, flying at 330 mph instead of 300, still within the developers 90% accuracy claim, but faster, none the less. Aircraft (a) and (b) are arch rivals and matched up very well, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Aircraft(a)'s only real strength however lay in the fact that it was faster than aircraft(b), that in every other respect, beat it hands down. Neither aircraft is significantly wrong and both lie within the developers claims of 90% accuracy however aircraft(a) now has no historical strengths and cannot compete in a manner that might have been the norm during the events depicted.
Of course if both aircraft were out by the same margin, in the same direction then, despite arguments as to the real figures, both aircraft could still play to their historical strengths.

Obviously the figures and percentages given here are purely notional, and exaggerated, but never the less, even with claims of high fidelity FM accuracy(90% or more, they can be seen to very quickly distort the whole historical balance of the events trying to be depicted.

This was unfortunately, possibly because of the limited source data for the developers to work with, a real bone of contention in RoF and the tinder for many an argument within the community.

It is all well and good producing a brilliant depiction of an aircraft in it's own right, but if how it fits into a wider canvas, such as a combat flight sim, is ignored then it will inevitably shine that little less brilliantly.

Last edited by Damocles; 11/23/13 08:26 PM.
#3866932 - 11/23/13 08:32 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Just don't give me AI that does a right-hand spiral down to the deck every time like RoF still does.
PULEASSE!!

#3866965 - 11/23/13 11:02 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Chivas]  
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
Even if they create perfectly historical FM's for each aircraft, there will be a large portion of the community that believes it doesn't suit their version of reality.


Of course forums "moaning" dont justify they make "balanced" FM's.

Quote:

That said they don't have to make it perfect, because nobody can accurately say what perfect was. It just needs to be believable enough, within reason, for the majority on both sides of the conflict to enjoy the contest.


Is unreal expect perfect FM in simulators - although some believe possible... what should be expected is that reported performance differences between different planes are maintained, independent if the type A is capable of flying at 704.99 KM/H just as some factory test graph shows...

20 KM/H more or less dont make one ACE.

Sokol1

#3866998 - 11/24/13 01:09 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Sokol1]  
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Chivas Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sokol1
Originally Posted By: Chivas
Even if they create perfectly historical FM's for each aircraft, there will be a large portion of the community that believes it doesn't suit their version of reality.


Of course forums "moaning" dont justify they make "balanced" FM's.

Quote:

That said they don't have to make it perfect, because nobody can accurately say what perfect was. It just needs to be believable enough, within reason, for the majority on both sides of the conflict to enjoy the contest.


Is unreal expect perfect FM in simulators - although some believe possible... what should be expected is that reported performance differences between different planes are maintained, independent if the type A is capable of flying at 704.99 KM/H just as some factory test graph shows...

20 KM/H more or less dont make one ACE.

Sokol1


I certainly don't want balanced FM's. I was just saying that even supposedly perfect FM's, will still generate dissatisfaction in the forums, because there are more than a few different "official versions" published by different countries with their built in propaganda agenda's, and enthusiasts "imagined versions" of each aircrafts capabilities.


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#3867010 - 11/24/13 02:38 AM Re: Acid test [Re: EAF_92 Whiskey]  
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Originally Posted By: EAF_92 Whiskey
Agree with the above posts.

I also hope the devs don't succumb to the 'make it fair' camp either, so that they avoid nerfing particular aspects of an aircraft type to make it more of an 'even' playing field for the online crowd.

WB.


Loft is a very straight-talking developer, and he's emphatically stated that the aircraft will be modeled to how they actually performed - no tweaks to make a plane more "balanced" or "fair."

#3867073 - 11/24/13 09:31 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Is the construction of FM's for a "Combat flight sim" as much an art as a science ? In a stand alone product maybe the science can take centre stage because it's only quality standard is itself. Do numbers alone do justice however when one aircraft is pitted against another, numbers that might suggest aircraft performance testing is an exact science and that building an aircraft is simply an addition of those numbers ?

I wonder if possibly Loft (the RoF FM creator) was too systematic in his creations in RoF. He gathered all the available data, plugged it into his dynamic model and Hey Presto !!! Maybe a tweak here, a tweak there to make up for incomplete or questionable data, but essentially that is how they were defined. Maybe, as an engineer, not enough thought was given to the Art ?

Balance is an interesting word, thought, notion, possibly with negative connotations. Using RoF again as an example a couple of points stand out for me. Apart from one or possibly two aspects, that I can think of, balance didn't seem to come into play in the creation of RoF, the cards fell, scientifically, were they fell. The exceptions are the rates of fire, after the weapons revision, both sides were given belt fed guns that fired at approximately the same rate. However specialist books on the subject and indeed the person who did all the creating and testing for them used a rate of fire for the German Maxim as about 400rpm, as opposed to the Allied Vickers that fired between 5-600rpm, even higher when fitted with a muzzle booster ( the whole rate of fire reasoning is complex, technical and not worth going into detail about here). The second possible balancing was within the damage model rather than the FM. For no obvious reason some aircraft were far more fragile and prone to battle damage than others. Again, with regard to the last point, an art or a science ? Balance doesn't have to be all on the part of the developers though, flight simmers are just as prone to balancing things out. You were as likely to meet a DR1 in RoF as a Camel, it was rare, if ever, to find a situation in which the Camel was included but not the DR1. The Pup was often disregarded because it was (rightly) considered to be too Uber. You could find yourself in situations where the opposing plane sets included a majority of late war German aircraft against a majority of Allied mid war aircraft and not including a numerous Allied type i.e the Camel. The Fokker D7 was also generally ignored because it didn't fit everyone's perceptions and the D7f was used by default in it's stead complete with its WEP, sorry I mean altitude throttle. So balance is not exclusively developer driven, but it does highlight the point that if the balance of power seems to be at fault in a non-historical manner between opposing sides then the community will make their own rules.


Last edited by Damocles; 11/24/13 09:33 AM.
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