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#3767285 - 04/13/13 08:51 PM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 916
farokh
farokh
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farokh
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 916
I-RAN
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please some one show me on marked screenshots that how we can fire sa-5 with "flashing index car" tactic... please
Last edited by farokh; 04/13/13 08:54 PM.
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#3767426 - 04/14/13 08:01 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
piston79
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#3767434 - 04/14/13 09:17 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
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Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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Thank you guys for these great videos! During the Cold War, it was unimaginable to make video, inside of these fire control cabins... ... now we can see and understand what they are doing. 
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#3768323 - 04/16/13 06:08 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: piston79]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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Next to "Frequency modulation" switch is a clickable button - "UPR Ro"... It was prepared for work, but why not included? There are several switches on the Vega, that were planned to be work in the future, and there are reasons that they were left out for now. Some of these switches are used against... - different types of jamming, not simulated. - discriminating between different planes on the same beam - detecting incoming HARM ... when the Vega was released, it could be fired only in Ashuluk, there were no use of these functions. (Operation Prairie Fire was released more than a year later only.)Still I feel, that Vega has not enough Historic missions (as in reality) & jamming methods in the SIM, so there is no point of recreating these advanced functions for now. (The noise jamming currently we have, is a type that nobody in real life would ever try against the Vega.)Adding 3 more historical scenarios... - Baltic - Black Sea - Vladivostok ... expanding Ashuluk with more complex Strelba scenarios, and ultimately releasing a mission editor, where anybody could create, save and share scenarios is the path for the future I can see ahead. What are your opinions?
Last edited by Hpasp; 04/16/13 01:59 PM.
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#3768334 - 04/16/13 06:24 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 916
farokh
farokh
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farokh
Member
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Posts: 916
I-RAN
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... expanding Ashuluk with more complex Strelba scenarios, and ultimately releasing a mission editor, where anybody could create, save and share scenarios is the path for the future I can see ahead.
What are your opinions?
i think around one year ago... i told u hpasp about this yeahh .... it can be a good hobby for samsim user! shareing the personal scenarios with personal info is a real good idea 
Last edited by farokh; 04/16/13 06:24 AM.
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#3774022 - 04/27/13 08:29 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
piston79
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"Other" side look:  "Our" side look: March 24, 13:45 - couple F-14 "Tomcat" from the squadron "Fighting Diamondbacks" cross so called "line of death." The pair flew 4.5 km altitude with almost zero parameter to the position of the ADS. Discovered at (D = 160 km)at 13.50-a the pair of F-14's was fired by a missile from each channel with 8 seconds interval (L-115 km height -4.5 km). 30 seconds later, the F-14 lowered to 2.5 km. 95 seconds after the start, the two missile met the target (D -100 km). Analysis of data from the cabin recorder shows that from the moment of the discovering of the target till the moment of the launches of the missiles, Libyan crew did not eliminate the uncertainty by distance (using data from the CU or the mode for measuring the distance of the complex itself).   Aftermath:  -------- Some "first look" impressions: As the range of the actual engagement was at 120-100 km, program II of the missile flight was loaded Russian source claims that there where seen signs of detonations on scopes in both shootings. Here US source stated that missiles where "long-range, high-altitude flight before crashing into the sea"... - as we know, no SAM missile(except earliest mods, not simulated in SAM Sim) is intended to finish it's flight on the ground. So they shouldn't finished their flight in such way UNLESS they where confused by the mirror reflection from the surface:  as there's no such jammer where stationed behind the pair of "Tomcat's" - this is not the case. If the jammer was of the F-14 itself, the missiles would not overflown it like described above... So, such flight profile is possible only if GSN losses the target (which could be a result of non using the FKM/Nonius from Libian crew), but it should finished with a self destruction, not scuba diving... Another possible option is that in this particular case, missiles locked the signal from the "Hawkeye", or RPN lost the track after U-turn of F-14's... It is strange that in this US book, nor in the russian source any data for U-turn prior to the detection of launches has commenced (only diving to the ground) Also, russian source claims that the signs of hitting the targets where observed on radars from RTV and ZRK itself... (...to be continued, probably...) 
Last edited by piston79; 04/27/13 05:30 PM.
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#3774052 - 04/27/13 11:26 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: piston79]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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Some "first look" impressions: As the range of the actual engagement was at 120-100 km, program II of the missile flight was loaded Russian source claims that there where seen signs of detonations on scopes in both shootings. Here US source stated that missiles where "long-range, high-altitude flight before crashing into the sea"... - as we know, no SAM missile(except earliest mods, not simulated in SAM Sim) is intended to finish it's flight on the ground. So they shouldn't finished their flight in such way UNLESS they where confused by the mirror reflection from the surface: (...to be continued, probably...) Great thread! Please continue.  Just adding some more technical depth.  The missile safety (PIM) has 5 safety level. (I think, it was described earlier...)We will discuss the 5th here in detail, as it might be important (and missing from the sim  ) to better understand what the Libyan operators were seen. BV - close guidanceIf the GSN is tracking the target, there is no KRO signal is visible. When the missile approaches the target, eventually (because it arrives beside of the target) the GSN will loose it. (target angle from the GSN >3.5 degree/sec) At this time, the semi-active (receive only), highly directional radio proxy fuse will be switched on, and the KRO signal is active for a short time. (Not simulated in the SAMSIM)  The fuse receives the RPC signal reflected from the target, and detonation. So the Vega crew assessing a shooting, should look for... - receiving momentarily KRO signal. - speed/altitude change of the target after the target negative spike, merged with the missile-target impact point positive spike. ... and what happens, if the V-880E flies at the dense atmosphere, with Mach6? (clearly outside of its designed engagement zone)First the nose cone will burn, the GSN will loose target, momentarily KRO signal, missile burned and splashed.
Last edited by Hpasp; 04/27/13 01:18 PM.
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#3774068 - 04/27/13 12:30 PM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
piston79
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... and what happens, if the V-880E flies at the dense atmosphere, with Mach6?
First the nose cone will burn, the GSN will loose target, momentarily KRO signal, missile burned and splashed.
Seems legit, but still we are comparing both point's of view (of course if anybody could suggested us some more sound US sources it would be great). At this book missiles where "long-range, high-altitude flight before crashing into the sea" for this first engagement. Also, according russian's sources the missile-target "rendezvous" was observed not only on S-200 scopes, but also on some target acquisition radars and height-finders....  Of course, this soviet's analysis could be just to calm down USSR high command for the low performance of the VEGA, but it is more logical in it's descriptions of the engagements, than the US book. Of course everybody could judge for itself...
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#3774076 - 04/27/13 01:05 PM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: piston79]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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... Of course, this soviet's analysis could be just to calm down USSR high command for the low performance of the VEGA, but it is more logical in it's descriptions of the engagements, than the US book. Of course everybody could judge for itself... The targets were clearly outside of the Vega kill zone. The system was performing as advertised. Contrary to the US NAVY pilots, politicians were simply not aware of its limitations... ... against low altitude target, max range: 38km 
Last edited by Hpasp; 04/27/13 01:06 PM.
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#3774192 - 04/27/13 06:09 PM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
piston79
Member
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Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
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"Other" side look:![[Linked Image]](http://SimHQ.com/forum/files/usergals/2013/04/full-27309-56789-2.jpg) "Our" side look:March 24, 18:42 - 1 zrdn C-200 detects target at a distance of 120 km and a height of 3 km. At 18:44 because of lack of connection with HQ, the commander of the Division decided to shoot the target (D = 100 km, H = 3 km). 25-30 seconds after the start, the target dived to a height of 1.5 km. Meeting of the missile and target it at a distance 85 km and height of 1.5 km.
Analysis of the two firing allows the following conclusions:
- The opponent has information on Technical and Tactical Data(TTD) of the complex and with the help of E-2C and the Cruisers "AEGIS" inform pilots of the missile launches.
- The crew didn't follow the rules of shooting, not considering the possibility that enemy could use maneuvers, which resulted in that the meeting of the missile and the target is realized in the low kill probability area; shootings carried out by not enough missiles, according to the shooting rules...
- Indicators of the RPN (radar illumination of the target), and radar reconnaissance radar RTV observed typical signs of destructing of the targets, held later simulations give reason to believe that they have struck at least 2 aircraft.
---------------------- "Other" side look:![[Linked Image]](http://SimHQ.com/forum/files/usergals/2013/04/full-27309-56790-3.jpg) "Our" side look:March 24, 20:25 - First and second zrdn tracked group order (D= 150-180 km), azimuth 0 to 20 degrees. Aviation flights are accompanied by active noise jamming medium and low intensity of P-14, P-18, P-35 (on the radar "Oborona-14" and PRV-17 height finder interference does not occur). At 20:50 the noise jamming stops, and on ranges 60 and 80 km 2 targets were observed. The commander of the task group divisions ordered to the 2 zrdn to begin work on the nearest target (1 zrdn continues to monitor the group order (D = 160 km)). In result 2 zrdn stops transmission and began to work out target designation for the second target , at which point the plane, located 60 km from the group divisions fired 2 missiles "Harm". First missile "Harm" explodes a distance of 8 meters and a height of 9 meters from the base of the K-1 cabin, the second flies over the position and destroyed from impact into the ground at a distance of ~ 10 km (in other data ~ 2 km): ... After the explosion of the "HARM"'s warhead, the missiles body continued to fly straight and as it is clearly visible on the pictures and Hpasp's scheme, it's wings made 2 cuts on the upper corner of the receiving antenna...  No one was injured or hurt, and the RPN was repaired by changing the antenna with a spare one from non-installed site in Bengazy. The K-1 cabin was penetrated from only two shrapnels without any damage inside....
Last edited by piston79; 07/13/19 09:21 PM.
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#3785758 - 05/22/13 03:41 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 351
CAG100
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Member
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Posts: 351
The World
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Question on realism from the early pages in this thread...
How can you be killing an SR-71 at all when none were lost to the sams during its career?
Last edited by CAG Hotshot; 05/22/13 03:44 AM.
Retired TSH Developer/Member
Retired Contributing editor to Sim-News.com
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#3785818 - 05/22/13 10:15 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: CAG100]
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
piston79
Member
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Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
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How can you be killing an SR-71 at all when none were lost to the sams during its career?
As SR-71 never dare to face "Gammon", how it could be lost?.... Three SR71 missions were tracked/fired on during 1967/68 and one was hit by fragments from a detonation in the rear quarter. This damage caused a change in employment of these aircraft. That a 'near-miss' was recorded from 3 engagements suggests that Dvina can track and hit the SR71, but the hit probability and window of opportunity is very small due to the relative performance of the missile, the later Volhov has several improvements in missile technology and guidance/tracking modes that improve the chance.
See, it was almost killed even with the ancient "Dvina".... Dvina near miss
Last edited by piston79; 05/22/13 04:30 PM.
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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