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#3783588 - 05/17/13 03:32 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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Gene, it's honest question. But I didn't think about it. Firstly, Cad drawing is not worth selling, I would rather give it for free.

Here's why your Idea wouldn't work :

1. It would be difficult to find this material localy. Buying it at retail price would also be expensive.
2. It would be difficult to buy proper bearings localy, retail price also more expensive.
3. Your local machining company would probably charge you for 3,5 hours machining time...+ there is special glue you need to use, also expensive in retail. I thought of selling it as a kit, but glue for this material would cost you 25 eur for 20 grams in retail.
4. Machining file is not only a 2d drawing...it's not cutting metal. There are a lot of precisely machined pockets in material that are very significant. For example seat for bearing is machinet to precision in hundred of milimeter. Machining is science for itself. If you machine too slow or too quick you will not get the same dimension of the hole, diffecence can be even 0.1mm this causes bearings to have play or wear out quickly. I know one thing too, every composite material is a story for itself. Every time I test new material I need a day at least to find out suitable machining strategies for that material so I can get a good finish, cycle times, accuracy. So your local machinist shop can have knowledge and machines to do the job, but it won't be fast or cheap.

As a furniture producer I have a lot of good suppliers and decent input prices becouse of quantities I buy. My plan is to use that strenght of my company to deliver excellent product for more than competitive price. My profit from this pedals is that I sell you expensive material that I cannot use anywhere else..becouse it's small dimension offcut from other jobs. If I had to buy composite for pedals alone Price would probably be 350 + eur.

After all that...it's shipping that's left to sort out. I'm currently trying to reduce some weight so pedals could ship in less than 5 kg. That makes a lot difference in cost :-)

Shipping costs for europe :
Express air D + 2-5 days ( internet tracking)
5-10 kg - 51 eur
2-5 kg - 45 eur

Premium post air D + 3-5 days ( tracking guarantee only till it leaves Croatia)
5-10 kg - 41 eur
2-5 kg - 35 eur

Economy mail trough land D+5-7 days ( no tracking)
5-10 kg - 36 eur
2-5 kg - 29 eur

For rest of world it takes longer 5-10 days express and premium up to 12 days, economy 12-21 day. It's also more expensive too.
Example for America's it costs
express 5-10 kg - 85 eur
2-5 kg - 64 eur
premium 5-10 kg - 68 eur
2-5 kg - 45 eur
economy 5-10 kg - 57 eur
2-5 kg - 38 eur

For rest of world it's like for America's + cca 20 eur.

You can see now what worries me. If it's package under 5 kg I think it's a reasonable shippment cost. For europe it doesn't matter much, but If it weight's over 5 kg it's costly to send.

I'm working hard to deliver this product to you at reasonable price :-)

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3783609 - 05/17/13 04:24 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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f15sim Offline
More projects than sense!
f15sim  Offline
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Graham, WA
1. The composite material could be substituted with Baltic Birch. It looks like your composite material is 18mm, which is easily obtainable in the US. You could laminate it with Formica to give it a similar look and increase the wear ability of the pedals.

2. McMaster-Carr probably stocks them. They stock things I never knew existed. biggrin

3. If you switch to Baltic Birch, you could build a kit for less and it wouldn't require exotic adhesives.

4. This is the "don't try to teach your grandmother how to steal sheep" part, but you don't know the kind of insanity I'm usually up to, so I'll only tease you a little bit. smile Let's just say that I'm http://www.f15sim.com very http://geneb.simpits.org aware of http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll what you need in order to CNC machine things. biggrin biggrin biggrin (http://www.youtube.com/f15sim) *laughs*

I think your design is very well thought out and very cool. However, being the stingy jerk that I am, I cannot resist cost-reducing _everything_. smile I really like the extensive use of socket head screws. It gives it a very nice look.

You might want to consider offering a "pro" version made from the exotic materials and a "consumer" version made from Formica laminated Baltic Birch. Either way, I wish you great success with this project - it's very cool.

g.


Proud owner of 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://geneb.simpits.org - the Me-109F/X Project
#3783633 - 05/17/13 05:00 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Nice projects Gene. Respect :-)
I've seen some of your projects already. Printing machine is excellent job.

While I can make it from birch, I can make it from steamed beech too, I have plenty of maple which is even better. I also have multilama thin cutting for multilayered parquet production, flat press and vacuum press. So I can make laminate maple for excellent product. Still, I think noone will buy it as it looks, wood :-). Another thing is accuracy in wood not as good etc.

What you call formica is actualy HPL - high pressure laminate...papers glued together where glue is 40 % and paper is 60 % of the material. It comes normaly in 0,8 or 1mm thick with melamine surface in some color. It can be also solid core - same color as melamine for the core.

My material is actualy similar to formica, only stronger resign , more paper to get thickness :-) You can get formica in greater thickness too, just it is strong only longitudinaly by looking at the board lenght. In my material paper is oriented 45 degree to another paper....just like glueing carbon. Therefore strong in both directions and less prone to cracks...

It's less than 18mm thick, but glued two boards are more than 20 mm :-) I won't give you correct thicknesess, sorry.

I understand your need to get everything cheaper, I do it too. As you can see I actualy wanted to bring these pedals for 200 eur, but it is impossible for these type of peddal and material.

I'll finish design and make new prototype next week and then I'll know exact price. I'll probably stick with magnetoresistor for main axis which is more expensive than hall sensor too. I think price will be 250 eur +- 10 eur + shippment and VAT. You've got to admit that that is excellent price for that product.

#3786027 - 05/22/13 05:57 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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I hope you don't think I'm away. I work on a new prototype as much as I have time.

So this is so far :

- magnetorezistor magrez ( Gvl 224 producer ) sucessfully tested.
- leo bodnar BU0836 A sucessfully tested on hall effect. Still testing various magnet sizes to get more resolution from smaller angle.

I've made a testbed for a new bearings design and it works excellent. We'll see if it's this good when assemled in prototype.
I've made lot of small modifications which should decrease total weight...hopefully enough.

I am currently working on new CAM and spring design...sorting out small glitches from first prototype. This one is giving me a little headache as I want nice and smooth movement, force too increase properly at specific angle...but I also need to recalculate every time forces acting on a CAM shaft, bearings , spring lenght ... aaarhg. plus it's not symetrical :-)A lot on work there but I'm getting it done.

#3786183 - 05/22/13 07:50 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Lausbub78 Offline
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Thanks for the Headup. I appreciate all your efforts in making your own Pedals and even planning to sell them in an affordable pricerange.

Thank you.

#3788207 - 05/27/13 12:57 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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Thanks Lausbub78 and all other supporters.

I present you rendering of hopefully a final design. As I wrote before there's been a lot of changes.




Most important changes :
New Cam design
New main shaft / bearing, rugged and no play at all.
One more possible adjustmant of pedal - look closely to screw which hold pedal pads in place :-)
- reduced width of pedals, still 13 % wider than simpeds
- reduced pedal rotation, but it's still cca 15-20% longer than simped's
- more comfortable spring adjustment position
- Brakes strenght adjustment by multiple spring holding holes ( not seen in picture)
- Rotation limiter now in parralelogram, not in camshaft anymore - so stronger and better look too.
- Y wing shaped support board - now from composite too.
- hopefully reduced weight to 4,3 Kg (calculated) - should fit to shipping under 5 kg :-) !!!!!!
- some parts are slightly changed to speed up machining process, but I don't think you'll even notice that.


Some parts are missing on this picture, I didn't bother about that.

Procedure now :
1. I go produce this prototype, so wish me luck.
2. Testing pedals myself, if everything ok then...
3. Croatian simulation pilots testing pedals, also testing against saiteks and simpeds. Hopefully video review and comparison on saiteks and simpeds too.
4. Starting sales is predicted by date when Croatia enter European Union ( 01.07.) That's my wish, but It will be tight.

Best regards to all you simmers

Milan

Last edited by milan_croatia; 05/27/13 01:01 PM.
#3789096 - 05/29/13 01:11 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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davidred Offline
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austria
well, i was searching for weeks for someone who is making exactly this!!!hall effect rudder pedals...so you have my word on this one...i will buy these as soon as available!let me know when you are ready to ship them! biggrin

#3789763 - 05/30/13 06:56 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Posts: 1,013
pato_mareao Offline
Ah! Combatsim good times!
pato_mareao  Offline
Ah! Combatsim good times!
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If you get to turn your digital blueprint into an actual & outstanding set of sim pedals, count on me to make you earn a well deserved profit thumbsup and on spreading the good news all over the place at once. beercheers

Ah! And a good dose of luck with your/our hahaha prototype.

pato.

Last edited by pato_mareao; 05/30/13 07:17 PM.

Reality is an alteration of our sensorial perception due to the lack of alcohol.
#3789983 - 05/31/13 08:47 AM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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Thank you on your interest. Prototype is almost ready, should be ready tomorrow. Then I'll post pictures of finished product.

New Cam is behaving superb :-)
All components weight 4.66 kg. With some luck it will be under 5 with packing. If not, I will make some decorative cutouts in the base board. I tried to avoid that becouse machining cost me and this material wear the tools too much.

I feared that this baseboard won't provide enough support but it's fine, just right.

Controler with magnetoresistor need to be produced for certain angle - resistors on controller are different. Controler that I have is made for first prototype, and rotation angle on second one is smaller. So It's not actualy reading 4096 positions but cca 3400 positions. It's still excellent accuracy.

Brakes I didn't connect. I haven't made a shaft for brakes yet. I need to make few small testing shafts with pocketed holes for magnet. I need to make a few so I can test different magnet sizes and rotations of magnet in relation to sensor so I can utilise most possible resolution and linearity from hall sensor for brakes. This is what I intend to do today and tomorrow morning. Then I will make final shafts and fit the pedals and post pictures.

For davidred, pato_mareao and all others interested:
While prototype will be ready tomorrow, and I can start production tomorrow :-) I want to make shure that pedals are up for a long time beating. I kindly ask you to be patient for cca 1 month so I can be shure to provide not only best product, but reliable one too.

If anyone else want to pre order please contact me on private message. It means a lot to me - so I know how much component I need to order to start.
regards
Milan

#3790057 - 05/31/13 01:46 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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davidred Offline
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austria
take all the time you need milan...for the time beeing i will just keep flying with my ch-rudder pedals...
1month is pretty quick, so now worries.
one question about the feel of the pedals...
do they have a center detent like all other commercial pedals like ch and Saitek?
and one question about the F16 or Cessna style pedals...will these modifications only be the foot plates and still the same pedals?meaning will i be able to just order F16 foot rests and screw it onto my pedals?meaning are they compatible and exchangeable with each other?
cause although your pedals really look superb, i prefer more the style of F16 foot rests, where your heels remain on the floor, and you push the pedals only with your toes and balls...

oh and btw, i became aware of your project due to a friendly member on the DCS forum....he said hes a friend of yours and sent me the link to this thread.thats the only reason i registered here...
so if you are interested in making profit out of your excellent project, i suggest to make it puplic on more sim forums just like the DCS one.though im sure you already thought about that!
cheers mate!

Last edited by davidred; 05/31/13 01:49 PM.
#3790314 - 05/31/13 09:57 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Brandano Offline
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Caput Mundi (well, it used to ...
From what I can see it would be a relatively simple job swapping the centering cam for one with or without a center detent. It might even be possible to machine it so that it can be turned around for both options, but there might be too little space between the cam and the pedals pivot. If the cam goes all the way around the pivot perhaps it could be shaped so that by loosening the screws it can be spun 180 degrees for the alternate mode of operation? Another way would be to swap the cam and idler bearing position, making the idler bearing move with the pedals and cutting the cam in the sprung arm, and making the arm reversible with separate cam profiles on the two sides.

Last edited by Brandano; 05/31/13 10:03 PM.
#3790333 - 05/31/13 10:47 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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I rushed it to finish today, and cut my finger a bit. 2 stiches, enough to keep me out of work since I can't use that hand for a while. I'll be back in workshop on monday to take pictures for you with old foot plates on. So you can see 95 percent of a finished design.

While I can't do it myself now...my brother will jump in to finish new shaft for foot plates so I can test and send pedals for others to test it as soon as possible.

Brandano, thanks on comments. I did all of your thoughs in my design. First Proto had a cam which could be just turned 180 degree to get another profile. This second prototype, just as you predicted, can not have it that way becouse I put different bearings so there is not enough space. I could put the cam further from pivot center but that makes it bulky and gives totaly different profile. Also I though about swapind cam and bearing but that makes it bulkier too. Also you will notice that I changed the cam shaft arm which holds the bearing and a spring...totaly. I did that to equalise vertical forces acting on that arm, I think you'll understand when you see.

So, conclusion and answers :

1. CAM profile is exchangeable on 2x screws. I will deliver 2x CAM profiles. Becouse of principle behind centering, like brandano explained, one CAM profile will have center detent. That center detent is not realy clearly noted as in other pedals...it's rather a curve where bearing has a loose seating. So, when flying, you know you are +- 2 to 3 degree from center, but you don't have a fealing that you "hit" into something when you change direction from left to right.
Second profile I deliver will have no center detent at all, but, when flying, you will not know where the center is...only by the force of a spring you will know it's near. I know how to make that one, but I didn't do it yet. First one I prefer and I think I made it fine.

2. F16 and cessna style pedal style will be only foot plate modifications, but may also require pedal shaft replacement. In any case It will be aviable for a separate purchase - that was main principle in desighing the pedals - to be able to swap pedal design quickly.

Whole pedal shaft with foot plate get's loose on only one screw.
I made a quick calculation for you. The more expensive option is if you need to buy F16 style foot plates with shaft,spring and magnet on it. It will cost between 35-45 eur for a set. Of course, If I can make it so that you only change foot plates without changing shaft I will, and it will cost less.

3. I will publish on other forums too when I finis. In a meanwhile you are free to recomend it yourself :-) I will probably put some simple website too. I think I know what friend of mine you reffer...hopefully he will have some beautifull things to show to the community really quick. I just gave you a hint, I belive you will be delighted :-)


regards

#3790596 - 06/01/13 05:22 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Lausbub78 Offline
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Please rest your hand for the time it needs to recover. From my own experience I know it's not a good Idea to work full power shortly after such an injury. It may get even worse.

Best wishes and get well soon.

#3790621 - 06/01/13 06:53 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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thx, lausbub78, don't worry. my bro will do the work, i'll sit and enjoy watching him work

#3791006 - 06/02/13 08:26 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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I promised you pictures, so here they are

Two things first :
1. Foot plates and shaft for foot plate is old, I'll send pictures of new separately becouse new shaft is not finished.
2. You will notice some damage on main axle. This is becouse I glued the screw and needed to break that bond to readjust the magnet :-(...it's only visual thing.








#3791008 - 06/02/13 08:33 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Foot plates exchange pictures...for the future...this is what is needed to change Me 109 style and replace it for example for F16 style pedals
I will post a video of exchange process when new pedal shaft is finished.




#3791015 - 06/02/13 08:46 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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Angle adjustment
Uscrew first screw


Unscrew second screw


It's a night shot HTC phone crappy picture, but you can see there are angles engraved so you adjust by rotating pedal to desired position


One pedal at 62 degree and another at 20 degree, without brakes applied...so it is necessary to repeat angle adjustment on another pedal.


Here you can clearly see the difference, but also four holes for brake strenght adjustment


Right brake fully applied..you can see 20 degree difference between left and right

#3791017 - 06/02/13 08:57 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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New place for adjusting spring strenght ...really easy and no ugly butterfly nuts :-)


Adjusting pedal spacer from the wall. In general, it is good becouse depending how deep is your table you want to put pedals closer to your legs, or further. It might also be necessary to adjust becouse If someone want to use low pedal angle so pedal edge don't hit the wall when in full deflection and brakes applied :-)


New VS old peda design. Redesigned to reduce weight. Pedals are not reduced in lenght at all. Also You might notice new one have adjustable swivel angle on upper screw. Only two screws are needed , other two holes are just for simetric looks :-)



That's all for now.
Hall sensors give me more headache than my injured finger :-) When I resolve that I'll post videos and publish pedals precision numbers.

I hope you like it like I do.
Milan

#3791040 - 06/02/13 09:53 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Looking good, very impressive. I'm definitely interested in a set of these.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#3791236 - 06/03/13 07:17 AM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Fulipso Offline
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fantastic work mate

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