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#3767214 - 04/13/13 05:08 PM Gaining an advantage from head on pass?  
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Hi,
I'v always been into combat sims but i'v tried to get better at BFM.
Recently I was engaged in a dogfight on-line in the DCS P-51. We were both at a relatively low energy sate, the fight had decended to below 2000 ft with plenty of turning bleeding the energy.

He got on my six so I extended to try to get him outside my turning circle. I came back around to a head on pass.
But we just kept making head on passes constantly for about 9 or 10 passes, total stalemate. I try to avoid a guns shot head on because I always seem to have a mid air collision as the other fighter reacts and tries to get a shot off on me.

How can one get an advantage from a head on pass at low energy? We were just above stalling. Is it possible to avoid constant head on passes as each tries to gain an advantage?

Thanks!

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#3767221 - 04/13/13 05:28 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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An early turn is probably a good bet, you need to make it sufficiently out of plane that he burns energy trying to follow it (giving you an advantage in the following turn), but not so much that he can negate it by a lag roll.

A pass under his nose can be beneficial as he must then reverse nose high to follow ~ and at low altitude may result in his passing close to the ground (either with collision or avoiding action spoiling his tactical options).

The benefit of an early turn is greatest where it is done early, but too much and he can get a good snap-shot opportunity ~ you also forgo any shot opportunity of your own ~ looking for a tracking shot or low crossing angle snap-shot later.

#3767621 - 04/14/13 10:12 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Head on there is 2 options the Lead turn or the vertical option. IMO a lead turn is best in this situation with a low energy state the way to do it is lower the nose to increase speed while in the turn.



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#3769326 - 04/18/13 02:48 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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(Head on pass = AKA "Merge")

If I'm picturing what you guys were in correctly, you were in a scissors (your turn direction was reversing at each merge?)

1) If this was not the case, and you guys were merging and keeping the same turn direction (picture a clock, you're going around clockwise and he's going around counter-clockwise), that was an error by one of you! Reverse your turn at the next merge! especially if that means you can turn across the bandits tail. This now becomes and energy fight (2-circle), and there's a variety of tactics on how to win from here.

2) (Scissors) If at the INITIAL merge, and both turn the same CARDINAL direction (Both going south), this becomes a nose position fight. The first guy to point at the other will be able to REVERSE his turn and LEAD TURN the next merge. This devolves into a series of merges, each time the fighters reversing their turn direction. Eventually, pilot skill and aircraft performance will win this fight, the aircraft that is able to fly slower across the ground (either using a vertical component, or straight up slow speed) will force the other guy out front. The guy who gets forced in front will need to get out of this situation ASAP, because shortly there will be some gun opportunities. Most likely, the defensive fighter will merge again, and NOT reverse his turn, but instead keep that turn going and try to separate. At this point, the offensive fighter should recognize this situation, cash in any vertical turning room he has for nose position, and gun the snot out of the defender. smile

#3769985 - 04/19/13 02:47 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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There are two issues here that are worth mentioning.

First, you are fighting 1v1 similar. 1v1 similar fights often devolve into endless head on passes or Lufberrys as there are no innate differences between aircraft to exploit. As long as the two adversaries are generally even in pilot skill and no one makes an obvious error, these things can go on forever.

Second, you are already at low energy state. Just like the previous discussion on the Luf, you are asking how to get out of an undesirable situation. The best answer might be: don't get into an endless series of low energy head on passes in the first place. In real life, you would be better served by killing the bandit fast or getting out of Dodge while your energy is high...either to disengage or reengage on more favorable terms with surplus energy, and thus, options. Once you are low and slow, your choices have narrowed considerably.

Of course, if you and your buddy are fighting to the death with no wingmen, no mission objectives, and no limitations (like differing fuel states, proximity to friendly lines, etc) to consider, there is far less incentive to leave. As Sinnerman said, you could have tried some manner of vertical maneuvering, but your scenario seems to start after that energy state is past.

Personally, what I would do is redefine the fight one circle. If he is used to you going head to head by now, a tight turn in one circle flow would give you the initiative and maybe get you some angles before he realizes what is going on. Additionally, the one circle fight can be a very decisive fight. With high angles and fleeting chances at shots, the first person to make a substantial error, will often get gunned.

Just make sure that it's not you. wink

Deacon

#3770110 - 04/19/13 09:58 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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(or get better at H/O snapshot gunnery, so a single pass is all that is needed duckhunter )

#3773996 - 04/27/13 05:19 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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This is one of the reasons I loved iF-16 so much. I often would be coming home from a mission, and run into a MiG. We'd go nose-to-nose, and I'd start a turn around to start a furball, but he (the red AI) would just keep going. iF-16 I'd always run into jets who blew by praying I'd do the same. Most other sims no matter what baddies turn to fight, but this isn't realistic.

Not that that was my main sim- I just enjoyed that aspect of it.

What do you guys think of going vertical at the merge?

Last edited by IamFritz; 04/27/13 05:24 AM.

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#3774123 - 04/27/13 03:27 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: IamFritz]  
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Foolish, unless your bandit has no chance of following you. An ascending spiral is a valid way to deal with a bandit, but you have to be on ball and give yourself turning room but not to him.

Originally Posted By: IamFritz
What do you guys think of going vertical at the merge?


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#3774272 - 04/27/13 10:41 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Hi, I do not know where to go on this Forum for Help. I am trying to get my DID F22 ADF to work in Windows 7. I was able to load it in Vista, but now I have upgrade my computer to win. 7 64 and it will not install. Can you give me any suggestions or point me in the right direction.
Thank you very much.
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#3774277 - 04/27/13 10:56 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Hammer27]  
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#3774408 - 04/28/13 07:26 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: IamFritz]  
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Originally Posted By: IamFritz

What do you guys think of going vertical at the merge?


Vertical is ok and it is an option if you are travelling quite fast you can use the vertical climb to bleed speed(eg supersonic) and get a tighter turn at corner speed. Vertical can also be used to defeat a Lead turn a Lead turn can be a Horizontal turn, Vertical or a combination of the 2. The problem with going vertical is if you lose to much speed you can be a sitting duck on the other hand a Split S behind another aircraft that's below you can cause you to overshoot a slower moving aircraft if you don't watch your airspeed.

Theres an example of a LEAD turn here:




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#3776517 - 05/02/13 03:10 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: IamFritz]  
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The vertical turn is not without its downside, but can be used effectively especially if you are fighting against a human opponent that doesn't necessarily have magic eyes.

It was a favorite of my old CO who would force one circle flow onto someone who just lead turned two circle. He would wing flash like he was going two circle, then level his wings and go vertical. Once in the vertical, he would roll to put the lift vector behind the bandit and squash his turn circle down to minimize his radius. If the bandit was oblivious, my CO would try to get behind the bandit's post and reverse nose low two circle which would leave him with some advantage.

If the bandit saw what was happening, he would be faced with either reversing nose high and giving up some angles or continuing nose low and coming into the next pass low to high and on from there.

As often as not, it would just surprise the other guy and make him take a second to decide what to do. Obviously this isn't generally modelled in the sim. wink

Deacon

#3776564 - 05/02/13 04:40 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Deacon211]  
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Neither is the simple counter to it, which is to watch the bandit and proceed with an ascending spiral.

Originally Posted By: Deacon211
As often as not, it would just surprise the other guy and make him take a second to decide what to do. Obviously this isn't generally modelled in the sim. wink


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#3776581 - 05/02/13 05:05 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Deacon211]  
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Originally Posted By: Deacon211

As often as not, it would just surprise the other guy and make him take a second to decide what to do. Obviously this isn't generally modelled in the sim. wink

Deacon


I remember my TOPGUN buddies as saying that one of the good things about a head on merge is that if flown close enough to the other guy you might just rattle him enough to gain a few seconds of time to then make your move while he was still trying to get his composure back!!

#3776727 - 05/02/13 10:22 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Andy Bush]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Neither is the simple counter to it, which is to watch the bandit and proceed with an ascending spiral.

Originally Posted By: Deacon211
As often as not, it would just surprise the other guy and make him take a second to decide what to do. Obviously this isn't generally modelled in the sim. wink


And yet I've watched a lot of HUD tape of my skipper blasting guys doing it, and I've done it with some success myself.

In the plane, there is nothing simple about twisting your head around, pulling 7-9Gs, and keeping sight of someone. Taking advantage of that fact is all part of the game.



Originally Posted By: Andy Bush
Originally Posted By: Deacon211

As often as not, it would just surprise the other guy and make him take a second to decide what to do. Obviously this isn't generally modelled in the sim. wink

Deacon


I remember my TOPGUN buddies as saying that one of the good things about a head on merge is that if flown close enough to the other guy you might just rattle him enough to gain a few seconds of time to then make your move while he was still trying to get his composure back!!


Ha!

I never did DACT against a Tomcat, but that flying tennis court has got to be intimidating...even at the 500ft ACM bubble.

And I suspect that some of those Tomcat guys might have pushed that on occasion. biggrin

#3776919 - 05/03/13 01:52 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Deacon211]  
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So in other words, they did it wrong? smile You won't be pulling 7-9g's in an ascending spiral (although you might be at the merge, maybe ... but then you're ready to be watching that bandit, no?)

Originally Posted By: Deacon211
And yet I've watched a lot of HUD tape of my skipper blasting guys doing it, and I've done it with some success myself.

In the plane, there is nothing simple about twisting your head around, pulling 7-9Gs, and keeping sight of someone. Taking advantage of that fact is all part of the game.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 05/03/13 01:53 PM.

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#3777458 - 05/04/13 05:41 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Well, I posted, but it got lost in cyberspace somewhere...twice.

In short, no, they didn't get it wrong. Although the concept is the same. When you honk on a big max rate turn in the actual jet, your head is glued to the headrest, your vision is narrowed to nothing and you are going to lose sight of the other guy for a few seconds as you pass behind each other's six. Even the F-16, which has great vis, is limited by the pilot's neck and he is going to be contorted into all sorts of positions to try to keep sight. It's going to be hard to see the other guy and you may even need to glance back towards your HUD to ensure you are flying your best turn and not turning yourself into a lawn dart.

Regaining sight is largely going to be a matter of looking where you'd expect the other guy to be. If the bandit doesn't see you or if he doesn't see you right away, (either a frequent occurrence) you are essentially flying a one circle fight with him stuck nose low thinking he's fighting two circle.

When (if) the bandit does see you, he may well put lift vector on and spiral up. But for several seconds he has been essentially arcing out of plane with you, while you have been driving one circle flow. In the best case, you have a good bite on him. If you can do some of that high alpha stuff (like in the Hornet or SU-27), you may even point your nose at him, which is intimidating as hell and may even make the bandit react defensively.

Worst case, you meet the bandit in a second high to low pass and continue the fight from there.

Of course, much of this plays on the phisiology of an actual fight. In most sims, you have padlock or Track IR and often the adversary's size is enhanced to make up for the limitations of the computer. Plus, the vis is always great which is absolutely not the case in real life.

Thus, if you can see the other guy immediately go vertical, then the counter becomes "simple" and the tactic loses some of it's utility. And arguably, since we have narrowed this discussion to the Viper, there is generally little reason to not just out rate the bandit and kill him the "easy" way. On the other hand, I have absolutely talked to some Hornet pilots who would rather stick to one circle if they knew the bandit came along equipped with capable off boresight missiles and helmet mounted sights. So, as in most pursuits, I'd hesitate to say "always" or "never".

But in a sim where you are flying the disadvantaged fighter, like maybe the F-15 in DCS against some adversaries, there's is significant value to getting creative.

In the end, this tactic works for the same reason that faking a punch and then kicking a guy in the Jimmy does...it seizes the initiative and exploits the other guys delayed reaction by doing exactly what he wasn't expecting.

Or, using a phrase that, being a fellow Marine, I know you've heard: "It gets inside the other guy's OODA Loop". smile

Deacon

#3777772 - 05/05/13 02:54 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_041a.html

"The biggest mistake made during head-on BFM is losing sight of the bandit. Since you can't fight what you can't see, this is a sure way to get your knickers ripped. The absolute best BFM move is no good if you lose sight of the bandit halfway through the maneuver. Some other common head-on BFM mistakes are insufficient G, poor airspeed control, bad lift vector control, failure to lead turn. (and trying to BFM in an F-14 smile )"

So i guess it comes down to whoever makes fewer mistakes, will win the fight.

Last edited by CTR69; 05/05/13 02:54 PM.
#3778184 - 05/06/13 03:01 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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I think that sums it up very well. Keep in mind though that "losing sight" in the context of the statement above, means "losing SA". There will be many times in a fight that you will need to look away from the bandit. You just need to know where he is so you can find him again. Thus, there is a somewhat hidden implication:

If you keep the bandit in sight, but you have crappy aircraft control, that's bad BFM.

If you fly the perfect turn, but lose sight of the bandit for any length of time, that's also bad BFM.

You need to do both well, and it's in the seams of the fight that much of the gamesmanship occurs. It's interesting to watch, especially 1v1 similar. Despite having the same performance, the better pilot will drive the lesser pilot around the sky. He will act first and generally force the other guy to RE-act. If there is a big disparity in skill, the fight will end fairly swiftly. If the two opponents are on more equal footing, then the better pilot may win a few degrees at a time. On occasion though, one guy misses the mark and the roles may be reversed or the lesser guy may fold.

Dissimilar adds the dimension of capitalizing on your aircraft's relative strengths. Relative, because your aircraft may be better at everything, just more better at some things than others.

Alternately of course you aircraft might not be better at anything...just less worse at some things than others. wink

Deacon

#3778397 - 05/06/13 09:20 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Deacon211]  
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Originally Posted By: Deacon211
I think that sums it up very well. Keep in mind though that "losing sight" in the context of the statement above, means "losing SA". There will be many times in a fight that you will need to look away from the bandit. You just need to know where he is so you can find him again. Thus, there is a somewhat hidden implication:


I've seen some vids and the guys just know when and where the bandit will pop in their sights again, based on the turn he was doing. So it comes down to experience. This is easier in BMS with the JHMCS, where you can keep the "lock" and maintain corner velocity at the same time.

But how do you do this with instruments only, where you can't see and FEEL your speed and altitude all the time? Do you keep "switching" the view all the time?

#3778429 - 05/06/13 10:32 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Glance down, check airspeed/Altitude and look again at the tgt also you have warning signs when you are losing to much speed.

Heres a good fight.


Last edited by SUBS_17; 05/06/13 10:49 PM.


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#3790832 - 06/02/13 07:05 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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From my experience in Air Combat USA, my instructor has told me that a left to left pass where both dip wings 90 degrees and pull will result in a sipral of death where neither get a win.

Instead, if you read the mood correctly you can force an opponent to do something if you are lucky, or more often than not, make one of three moves, but never the 90 degree wing dip and pull. Chandell, a slice, or a split S. Those are the 3 main choices you have, and if you are going for the chandell, dip that nose down for speed, yer gonna need it.

Except the real life flight physics in a chandell move is much better suited for this and almost no simulator out there reproduces what happens at the top of a curve. What I mean is, you are flyign level left to left, and you just pull straight up, and come over the top, and as you are coming down and pickign speed back up you decide on what next move to make. In simulators at the very top of the curve as you are about to come straight back down, you have very little control and seems very shaky at low speeds, but in real life this maneuver is actually much faster and the help of gravity pushing you down flips the entire aircraft down much faster. It's really an efficient move if done right. I did that at Air Combat USA and it really is something else.

That said it's probably not as useful in a simulator though, so a slice or split S might do. But the faster you end the fight the better. My opponent had the upper hand twice and lost it because it took him too long or he almost hit hard deck.


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#3791779 - 06/04/13 11:42 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Very cool, Ralfidude! I've enjoyed your videos immensely!

Remember what works in one situation may not be the best course of action in all circumstances. The left to left, death spiral to a lufberry is the likely end in the case of 1v1 similar, but may not be the case with dissimilar aircraft.

As an example, if I were to go left to left nose low two circle in my old trusty Harrier against an F-16, the end result would likely be different. I could generate 8Gs sustained with perhaps 40, 30, or 20 degrees nose down depending on my load and altitude, where the F-16 could generate 9Gs sustained with perhaps 30, 20, or 10 (these numbers are complete swags, BTW) and produce, let's be conservative and say, 2-3 degrees per second more than me. The big mouthed Vipers could sustain 9Gs with no nose down at all!!!

So, if it took us 20 seconds to race to the deck, the Viper would have 40-60 degrees on me, BEFORE my deck transition, which I would need to accomplish sooner since I had to go more nose low to sustain my G. Once on the deck, it would likely get worse. The Harrier, with a lot of mil power but no Afterburner and no leading edge flaps, could probably only sustain 6-7 Gs on the deck. The F-16 would still be generating 9. He might even need to pull power to keep from getting fast!

So, while the two circle death spiral will probably lead to the endless fight Marchetti to Marchetti, it would probably be a different story, Marchetti vs T-34 or Cessna. 1v1 similar fights are generally won (or lost) by someone flying better, someone making a big mistake, or, as you suggested, someone pulling the ole' Rope a Dope on the other guy who gets clubbed like a baby seal and probably has no idea where you came from. LOL!

Deacon

#3792103 - 06/04/13 10:17 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: ralfidude]  
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Originally Posted By: ralfidude
From my experience in Air Combat USA, my instructor has told me that a left to left pass where both dip wings 90 degrees and pull will result in a sipral of death where neither get a win.

Instead, if you read the mood correctly you can force an opponent to do something if you are lucky, or more often than not, make one of three moves, but never the 90 degree wing dip and pull. Chandell, a slice, or a split S. Those are the 3 main choices you have, and if you are going for the chandell, dip that nose down for speed, yer gonna need it.


That's assuming that you are flying against the same type of aircraft and that the other guy is going to pull the same manouver. How ever in a dynamic campaign or a mission in a sim where you are against other aircraft types the horizontal lead turn has a lot of advantages in some aircraft. In some cases the decision to make the move is split second and not always head on either. It depends on where you are at the time and what you are doing. For example low cloud you would lose sight of the enemy going vertical so a Lead turn might be the move to make. A split S at some speeds will give you problems because if you are above corner speed as you descend your going to have to lose speed to get optimal turn rate. If you are low that option is also ruled out, vertical has other disadvantages in some cases.





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#3838828 - 09/18/13 07:06 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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I remember reading WWII pilot biographies that pilot's fit is also very important factor in dogfight (sustain high Gs, longer). This is rarely simulated in our games: after intense Gs pulling sessions, some pilots should be completely phased out and as a consequence of this, would relax a lot their maneuvers for quite some time...


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#3839157 - 09/19/13 01:35 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: SHar82]  
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Virtual pilots fight harder than RL pilots because they don't tire. There's a limit to how much you can 'tire' your little virtual stick-handler ... after a certain amount people start to complain.

In any case, all pilots in-game are equal in terms of fatigue, and I can't really see a legitimate reason to simulate pilots of differing stamina.

Originally Posted By: SHar82
I remember reading WWII pilot biographies that pilot's fit is also very important factor in dogfight (sustain high Gs, longer). This is rarely simulated in our games: after intense Gs pulling sessions, some pilots should be completely phased out and as a consequence of this, would relax a lot their maneuvers for quite some time...


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#3839651 - 09/20/13 03:07 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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so maybe it could be a good new feature to see this tiring parameter included in hardcore simulation for everybody (including AI), like we see for the black and red veil effect simulating blood pressure due to too much Gs: after too much sustained Gs, your stick become more sluggish for few important seconds..

Last edited by SHar82; 09/20/13 03:13 PM.

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#3839693 - 09/20/13 04:36 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: SHar82]  
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It's a fairly complex function that has to be robust and work very reliably. Do you have scientific measures of how fast the average pilot tires - it's been hard to even get average pilot endurance for g-related tolerance, while at the same time we hear of pilots fighting hard for ten minutes at a time.
What does this 'I get tired' simulation get you in terms of enjoying the sim? Does the tiredness go away if you click 'respawn'? wink


There are plenty of 'hard core' features that get turned off by 'hard core' players out there.

Then there's the shouting that virtual pilots/planes/missiles/guns/tanks are over/under-modeled.

I'd rather see the devs spend time modeling something more useful - just my personal opinion from having to manage g-effects in DCS, which are quite nicely modeled (even if some complain that the pilot is under-modeled smile )

Originally Posted By: SHar82
so maybe it could be a good new feature to see this tiring parameter included in hardcore simulation for everybody (including AI), like we see for the black and red veil effect simulating blood pressure due to too much Gs: after too much sustained Gs, your stick become more sluggish for few important seconds..

Last edited by GrayGhost; 09/20/13 04:40 PM.

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#3841533 - 09/25/13 04:30 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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DCS models G effects quite well, yes stamina is modelled and so is G warm up so in order to dogfight you want to have done a G warm up so that you can sustain higher G in the dogfight. If you don't then it can mean having to do the dogfight without the warm up which gives lower G grey out at first. I have heard about a pilot in Vietnam dogfighting for a long time in one fight and he pulled a lot of G.




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#3843981 - 09/30/13 11:06 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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I find I dont get much of advantage by doing energy management in FC3 F-15C.
Most of the time, the first one who got inside the turning circle wins.
I dont know if its because SFM or powerful engine of F-15C causing that.

Doing the same 90 roll hard turn in P-51D A-10C or Falcon bms, it is very likely that I lose.
Doing gradully climb in gentle turn with maintainng speed is much better for the turning battle in those planes.

This trends also applies to going vertical.


btw Im referring to human vs human in the same plane head on pass.

Last edited by nadal; 09/30/13 11:24 PM.
#3844195 - 10/01/13 01:49 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Energy management works just fine. As long as you keep both more energy than the other guy, and control over the geometry of the fight, and you know when to spend your energy (instead of keeping it indefinitely), you'll do fine. The important part is that the 'energy fight' does not mean you stop fighting angles. You have to use both concepts, and you need to be able to read your opponent's energy state at all times in order to adjust your strategy.


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#3845266 - 10/03/13 07:48 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Energy management works just fine. As long as you keep both more energy than the other guy, and control over the geometry of the fight, and you know when to spend your energy (instead of keeping it indefinitely), you'll do fine. The important part is that the 'energy fight' does not mean you stop fighting angles. You have to use both concepts, and you need to be able to read your opponent's energy state at all times in order to adjust your strategy.


You should be right since both using the same FM.

I dont know what I should call it but some sort of "recovery window" of F-15C is considerably big that I(and my teammate) feel it is much harder to fool.
We feel very safe when we could take an advantage in altitude and speed, but not in F-15C vs F-15C.

Last edited by nadal; 10/03/13 07:49 AM.
#3845669 - 10/03/13 11:59 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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I can't wait for the F-15C to get AFM along with the SU27, that will make dogfighting fun. thumbsup



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#3857266 - 11/02/13 12:21 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Well if you are in a Dogfight your BVR Strategy failed..

The best way to stay out of a knife fight is NOT to get into one.. wink


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#3858857 - 11/05/13 08:52 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: The Nephilim]  
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Originally Posted By: The Nephilim
Well if you are in a Dogfight your BVR Strategy failed..

The best way to stay out of a knife fight is NOT to get into one.. wink



As weird as it sounds IRL pilots practice dogfighting I know it sounds strange but it is a lot of fun especially when there is more than one bad guy. BTW I have found a new move in the P51 on the dogfight channel it reverses the aircraft within seconds although quite difficult to do and regain visual on the bad guys....P51s are flying death machines lol. immelman

Check this move out 1min30sec



You can do this on DCS P51.

Last edited by SUBS_17; 11/19/13 08:39 PM.


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#3858902 - 11/05/13 10:00 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Check this move out 50s:





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#3859961 - 11/08/13 01:39 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: SUBS_17]  
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Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
Originally Posted By: The Nephilim
Well if you are in a Dogfight your BVR Strategy failed..

The best way to stay out of a knife fight is NOT to get into one.. wink



As weird as it sounds IRL pilots practice dogfighting I know it sounds strange but it is a lot of fun especially when there is more than one bad guy. BTW I have found a new move in the P51 on the dogfight channel it reverses the aircraft within seconds although quite difficult to do and regain visual on the bad guys....P51s are flying death machines lol. immelman

Check this move out 2min



You can do this on DCS P51.



Yes they do. every now and then you here of them crashing into each other on the east coast.... I am referring to modern day Fighters tho not a P51 as they had NO BVR .. wink

Your Best advice is NOT to get into a Dogfight..


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#3860893 - 11/10/13 09:06 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: The Nephilim]  
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Originally Posted By: The Nephilim


Yes they do. every now and then you here of them crashing into each other on the east coast.... I am referring to modern day Fighters tho not a P51 as they had NO BVR .. wink

Your Best advice is NOT to get into a Dogfight..


Having flown and beaten a couple of campaigns in Falcon 4 Allied Forces I can tell you dogfights happen more often than what you would expect especially if you are flying in an online squadron on missions we had times where sometimes enemy migs appeared in our area while on strike missions etc. Normally we would engage BVR in most cases but sometimes if you're up over a runway doing OCA strikes Migs manage to take off. In an online war like SVN vs 5th Element where you are up against many Human pilots not AI usually it was BVR since both sides are carrying a similar mix of Aim120s/Aim9s and 5th Element had the Russian equivalent. In the opening stages of a dynamic campaign in falcon 4 the skys are full Migs and allied fighters everywhere so its not uncommon to have to help another strike package out that is already in a dogfight against migs. tomcat



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#3861003 - 11/11/13 03:46 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Yes I never said they do NOT happen it is just my advice to avoid them if at all possible. Also if it is AI that is one thing but if going up against another Human pilot that is totally different..

Best Advice is to Avoid a Knifefight..

Roger Out..

Last edited by The Nephilim; 11/11/13 03:50 AM.

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#3862185 - 11/13/13 10:38 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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The best action is to have energy, if you are too close to stall speed is difficult to have a magic maneuvre to use after head on pass during the merge. Even more if you fly a P-51 and you don't have enough energy try to extend and fly away , if possible. A P-51 don't have BVR potential, so it is a bit easier to extend and bugout. Otherwise remember to try to use a 0 g's maneuvers for a couple of seconds if you have altitude, you will gain speed like hell but you will drop down from the sky as well so watch out your altimeter.


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#3862365 - 11/14/13 09:28 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: The Nephilim]  
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Originally Posted By: The Nephilim
Yes I never said they do NOT happen it is just my advice to avoid them if at all possible. Also if it is AI that is one thing but if going up against another Human pilot that is totally different..

Best Advice is to Avoid a Knifefight..

Roger Out..


Yep some human pilots are good others not so good, IMO going up against more than one human pilot is fun guns only. In an aircraft like the P51 in DCS sometimes just flying without crashing is enough to win the dogfight lol. tactical



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#3862481 - 11/14/13 04:07 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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whenever i was dealing with a situation like this i would try to assess whether the enemy pilot was better than me or worse, and take into account his a/c's performance.

for example i often flew a6m2's or a6m5's in IL2. very light, fast climbing airplane with a very low stalling speed. i often fought against fast planes like p51's or f4u's.

at the merge a single hit on an a6m2 will kill it so it was vital to avoid being hit. i would make it a priority to come in at a difficult angle so that the deflection shots were hard to make for my opponent. from his point of view, i'd often come in at a shallow dive from the right hand side, crossing in front and under his engine cowling.

at the merge, i would typically try to make my opponent reverse direction as quickly as possible, making him waste energy. you can do this by starting your lead turn earlier, just before the merge. he'll usually try to follow you.

i'd then usually start a slow spiral climb with the opponent purposefully on my 6- the bad guy is trying to get a lead shot on you so he's usually turning harder than you are, wasting energy. positioning myself just outside of where he could hit me - he is within gun range but he doesn't have enough speed to pull the nose around harder without stalling out. sometimes it takes just one circle, sometimes it takes 2 or 3 to get to this point.

i think this is the critical phase. if the pilot is smart he'll realize what you are doing and he'll ease up, break contact, or he'll lead you more gently so he can keep up with you without stalling out or losing energy, in which case you'll have to shake him.

but more often than not, pilots get greedy when your aircraft is just at the tip of their sights, and they will try to lead you more and more because you are presenting such a juicy target.

as soon as i could see that the opponent was getting low on energy, or at the limit of its slow flight range, i'd increase my climb even further and put the aircraft on the brink of a stall while continuing to turn into the opponent. smart opponents will give up but you'll still usually be able to get an advantage on them at this point.

bad pilots will usually be toast at this point and you can simply unload the aircraft, turn in and make a descending gun pass at them. if you get in close enough they won't even be able to outrun you without taking tons of hits.

if you're facing an aircraft of the same performance, then you can use the same tricks to your advantage. get your opponent to load his aircraft up, which wastes energy, then when he's finally just about out of energy, unload your own aircraft and use the slight energy disparity to make an attack run.

#3862612 - 11/14/13 07:45 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: SUBS_17]  
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Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
Originally Posted By: The Nephilim
Yes I never said they do NOT happen it is just my advice to avoid them if at all possible. Also if it is AI that is one thing but if going up against another Human pilot that is totally different..

Best Advice is to Avoid a Knifefight..

Roger Out..


Yep some human pilots are good others not so good, IMO going up against more than one human pilot is fun guns only. In an aircraft like the P51 in DCS sometimes just flying without crashing is enough to win the dogfight lol. tactical


Well best thing to do if you are in a Dogfight and want an advantage over a head on pass turn early..


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#3862696 - 11/14/13 10:05 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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The options are the Vertical and the Horizontal Lead turn and if done the right way you can be on their 6 quite rapidly.



Horizontal



Vertical

Also a snap shot is another option in the head to head pass.



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#3880070 - 12/19/13 04:13 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Originally Posted By: Shadowdawn
Hi,
I'v always been into combat sims but i'v tried to get better at BFM.
Recently I was engaged in a dogfight on-line in the DCS P-51. We were both at a relatively low energy sate, the fight had decended to below 2000 ft with plenty of turning bleeding the energy.

He got on my six so I extended to try to get him outside my turning circle. I came back around to a head on pass.
But we just kept making head on passes constantly for about 9 or 10 passes, total stalemate. I try to avoid a guns shot head on because I always seem to have a mid air collision as the other fighter reacts and tries to get a shot off on me.

How can one get an advantage from a head on pass at low energy? We were just above stalling. Is it possible to avoid constant head on passes as each tries to gain an advantage?

Thanks!


Judging by this original scenario: the P51-D pilot does have a couple options vs fw-190-A (1v1)

Why didn't you turn fight against the fw-190? (forgive me, but I thought that mustang was an ok turner, presumably the fw190 will NOT outturn mustang easily, at least?)

More over, why didn't you run away in the mustang, extend away from the fw190? (mustang is faster aircraft than fw190, and even acceleration should be better in mustang)

If you run away far enough in mustang, you could start climbing at the same time. After having done some climbing, and running, you could have turned back to finish off the fw190. Turning back towards him, at higher altitude, you would have to avoid the one snap shot opportunity from fw190. After that one shot opportunity, the fw190 is a sitting duck (rope-a-dope tactic being used here)

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