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#3778429 - 05/06/13 10:32 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Glance down, check airspeed/Altitude and look again at the tgt also you have warning signs when you are losing to much speed.

Heres a good fight.


Last edited by SUBS_17; 05/06/13 10:49 PM.


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#3790832 - 06/02/13 07:05 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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From my experience in Air Combat USA, my instructor has told me that a left to left pass where both dip wings 90 degrees and pull will result in a sipral of death where neither get a win.

Instead, if you read the mood correctly you can force an opponent to do something if you are lucky, or more often than not, make one of three moves, but never the 90 degree wing dip and pull. Chandell, a slice, or a split S. Those are the 3 main choices you have, and if you are going for the chandell, dip that nose down for speed, yer gonna need it.

Except the real life flight physics in a chandell move is much better suited for this and almost no simulator out there reproduces what happens at the top of a curve. What I mean is, you are flyign level left to left, and you just pull straight up, and come over the top, and as you are coming down and pickign speed back up you decide on what next move to make. In simulators at the very top of the curve as you are about to come straight back down, you have very little control and seems very shaky at low speeds, but in real life this maneuver is actually much faster and the help of gravity pushing you down flips the entire aircraft down much faster. It's really an efficient move if done right. I did that at Air Combat USA and it really is something else.

That said it's probably not as useful in a simulator though, so a slice or split S might do. But the faster you end the fight the better. My opponent had the upper hand twice and lost it because it took him too long or he almost hit hard deck.


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#3791779 - 06/04/13 11:42 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Very cool, Ralfidude! I've enjoyed your videos immensely!

Remember what works in one situation may not be the best course of action in all circumstances. The left to left, death spiral to a lufberry is the likely end in the case of 1v1 similar, but may not be the case with dissimilar aircraft.

As an example, if I were to go left to left nose low two circle in my old trusty Harrier against an F-16, the end result would likely be different. I could generate 8Gs sustained with perhaps 40, 30, or 20 degrees nose down depending on my load and altitude, where the F-16 could generate 9Gs sustained with perhaps 30, 20, or 10 (these numbers are complete swags, BTW) and produce, let's be conservative and say, 2-3 degrees per second more than me. The big mouthed Vipers could sustain 9Gs with no nose down at all!!!

So, if it took us 20 seconds to race to the deck, the Viper would have 40-60 degrees on me, BEFORE my deck transition, which I would need to accomplish sooner since I had to go more nose low to sustain my G. Once on the deck, it would likely get worse. The Harrier, with a lot of mil power but no Afterburner and no leading edge flaps, could probably only sustain 6-7 Gs on the deck. The F-16 would still be generating 9. He might even need to pull power to keep from getting fast!

So, while the two circle death spiral will probably lead to the endless fight Marchetti to Marchetti, it would probably be a different story, Marchetti vs T-34 or Cessna. 1v1 similar fights are generally won (or lost) by someone flying better, someone making a big mistake, or, as you suggested, someone pulling the ole' Rope a Dope on the other guy who gets clubbed like a baby seal and probably has no idea where you came from. LOL!

Deacon

#3792103 - 06/04/13 10:17 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: ralfidude]  
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Originally Posted By: ralfidude
From my experience in Air Combat USA, my instructor has told me that a left to left pass where both dip wings 90 degrees and pull will result in a sipral of death where neither get a win.

Instead, if you read the mood correctly you can force an opponent to do something if you are lucky, or more often than not, make one of three moves, but never the 90 degree wing dip and pull. Chandell, a slice, or a split S. Those are the 3 main choices you have, and if you are going for the chandell, dip that nose down for speed, yer gonna need it.


That's assuming that you are flying against the same type of aircraft and that the other guy is going to pull the same manouver. How ever in a dynamic campaign or a mission in a sim where you are against other aircraft types the horizontal lead turn has a lot of advantages in some aircraft. In some cases the decision to make the move is split second and not always head on either. It depends on where you are at the time and what you are doing. For example low cloud you would lose sight of the enemy going vertical so a Lead turn might be the move to make. A split S at some speeds will give you problems because if you are above corner speed as you descend your going to have to lose speed to get optimal turn rate. If you are low that option is also ruled out, vertical has other disadvantages in some cases.





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#3838828 - 09/18/13 07:06 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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SHar82 Offline
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I remember reading WWII pilot biographies that pilot's fit is also very important factor in dogfight (sustain high Gs, longer). This is rarely simulated in our games: after intense Gs pulling sessions, some pilots should be completely phased out and as a consequence of this, would relax a lot their maneuvers for quite some time...


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#3839157 - 09/19/13 01:35 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: SHar82]  
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Virtual pilots fight harder than RL pilots because they don't tire. There's a limit to how much you can 'tire' your little virtual stick-handler ... after a certain amount people start to complain.

In any case, all pilots in-game are equal in terms of fatigue, and I can't really see a legitimate reason to simulate pilots of differing stamina.

Originally Posted By: SHar82
I remember reading WWII pilot biographies that pilot's fit is also very important factor in dogfight (sustain high Gs, longer). This is rarely simulated in our games: after intense Gs pulling sessions, some pilots should be completely phased out and as a consequence of this, would relax a lot their maneuvers for quite some time...


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#3839651 - 09/20/13 03:07 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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SHar82 Offline
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so maybe it could be a good new feature to see this tiring parameter included in hardcore simulation for everybody (including AI), like we see for the black and red veil effect simulating blood pressure due to too much Gs: after too much sustained Gs, your stick become more sluggish for few important seconds..

Last edited by SHar82; 09/20/13 03:13 PM.

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#3839693 - 09/20/13 04:36 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: SHar82]  
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It's a fairly complex function that has to be robust and work very reliably. Do you have scientific measures of how fast the average pilot tires - it's been hard to even get average pilot endurance for g-related tolerance, while at the same time we hear of pilots fighting hard for ten minutes at a time.
What does this 'I get tired' simulation get you in terms of enjoying the sim? Does the tiredness go away if you click 'respawn'? wink


There are plenty of 'hard core' features that get turned off by 'hard core' players out there.

Then there's the shouting that virtual pilots/planes/missiles/guns/tanks are over/under-modeled.

I'd rather see the devs spend time modeling something more useful - just my personal opinion from having to manage g-effects in DCS, which are quite nicely modeled (even if some complain that the pilot is under-modeled smile )

Originally Posted By: SHar82
so maybe it could be a good new feature to see this tiring parameter included in hardcore simulation for everybody (including AI), like we see for the black and red veil effect simulating blood pressure due to too much Gs: after too much sustained Gs, your stick become more sluggish for few important seconds..

Last edited by GrayGhost; 09/20/13 04:40 PM.

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#3841533 - 09/25/13 04:30 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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DCS models G effects quite well, yes stamina is modelled and so is G warm up so in order to dogfight you want to have done a G warm up so that you can sustain higher G in the dogfight. If you don't then it can mean having to do the dogfight without the warm up which gives lower G grey out at first. I have heard about a pilot in Vietnam dogfighting for a long time in one fight and he pulled a lot of G.




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#3843981 - 09/30/13 11:06 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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I find I dont get much of advantage by doing energy management in FC3 F-15C.
Most of the time, the first one who got inside the turning circle wins.
I dont know if its because SFM or powerful engine of F-15C causing that.

Doing the same 90 roll hard turn in P-51D A-10C or Falcon bms, it is very likely that I lose.
Doing gradully climb in gentle turn with maintainng speed is much better for the turning battle in those planes.

This trends also applies to going vertical.


btw Im referring to human vs human in the same plane head on pass.

Last edited by nadal; 09/30/13 11:24 PM.
#3844195 - 10/01/13 01:49 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Energy management works just fine. As long as you keep both more energy than the other guy, and control over the geometry of the fight, and you know when to spend your energy (instead of keeping it indefinitely), you'll do fine. The important part is that the 'energy fight' does not mean you stop fighting angles. You have to use both concepts, and you need to be able to read your opponent's energy state at all times in order to adjust your strategy.


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#3845266 - 10/03/13 07:48 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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nadal Offline
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Energy management works just fine. As long as you keep both more energy than the other guy, and control over the geometry of the fight, and you know when to spend your energy (instead of keeping it indefinitely), you'll do fine. The important part is that the 'energy fight' does not mean you stop fighting angles. You have to use both concepts, and you need to be able to read your opponent's energy state at all times in order to adjust your strategy.


You should be right since both using the same FM.

I dont know what I should call it but some sort of "recovery window" of F-15C is considerably big that I(and my teammate) feel it is much harder to fool.
We feel very safe when we could take an advantage in altitude and speed, but not in F-15C vs F-15C.

Last edited by nadal; 10/03/13 07:49 AM.
#3845669 - 10/03/13 11:59 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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I can't wait for the F-15C to get AFM along with the SU27, that will make dogfighting fun. thumbsup



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#3857266 - 11/02/13 12:21 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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3rd Stone from the Sun !!
Well if you are in a Dogfight your BVR Strategy failed..

The best way to stay out of a knife fight is NOT to get into one.. wink


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#3858857 - 11/05/13 08:52 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: The Nephilim]  
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Originally Posted By: The Nephilim
Well if you are in a Dogfight your BVR Strategy failed..

The best way to stay out of a knife fight is NOT to get into one.. wink



As weird as it sounds IRL pilots practice dogfighting I know it sounds strange but it is a lot of fun especially when there is more than one bad guy. BTW I have found a new move in the P51 on the dogfight channel it reverses the aircraft within seconds although quite difficult to do and regain visual on the bad guys....P51s are flying death machines lol. immelman

Check this move out 1min30sec



You can do this on DCS P51.

Last edited by SUBS_17; 11/19/13 08:39 PM.


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#3858902 - 11/05/13 10:00 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Check this move out 50s:





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#3859961 - 11/08/13 01:39 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: SUBS_17]  
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3rd Stone from the Sun !!
Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
Originally Posted By: The Nephilim
Well if you are in a Dogfight your BVR Strategy failed..

The best way to stay out of a knife fight is NOT to get into one.. wink



As weird as it sounds IRL pilots practice dogfighting I know it sounds strange but it is a lot of fun especially when there is more than one bad guy. BTW I have found a new move in the P51 on the dogfight channel it reverses the aircraft within seconds although quite difficult to do and regain visual on the bad guys....P51s are flying death machines lol. immelman

Check this move out 2min



You can do this on DCS P51.



Yes they do. every now and then you here of them crashing into each other on the east coast.... I am referring to modern day Fighters tho not a P51 as they had NO BVR .. wink

Your Best advice is NOT to get into a Dogfight..


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#3860893 - 11/10/13 09:06 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: The Nephilim]  
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Originally Posted By: The Nephilim


Yes they do. every now and then you here of them crashing into each other on the east coast.... I am referring to modern day Fighters tho not a P51 as they had NO BVR .. wink

Your Best advice is NOT to get into a Dogfight..


Having flown and beaten a couple of campaigns in Falcon 4 Allied Forces I can tell you dogfights happen more often than what you would expect especially if you are flying in an online squadron on missions we had times where sometimes enemy migs appeared in our area while on strike missions etc. Normally we would engage BVR in most cases but sometimes if you're up over a runway doing OCA strikes Migs manage to take off. In an online war like SVN vs 5th Element where you are up against many Human pilots not AI usually it was BVR since both sides are carrying a similar mix of Aim120s/Aim9s and 5th Element had the Russian equivalent. In the opening stages of a dynamic campaign in falcon 4 the skys are full Migs and allied fighters everywhere so its not uncommon to have to help another strike package out that is already in a dogfight against migs. tomcat



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#3861003 - 11/11/13 03:46 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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3rd Stone from the Sun !!
Yes I never said they do NOT happen it is just my advice to avoid them if at all possible. Also if it is AI that is one thing but if going up against another Human pilot that is totally different..

Best Advice is to Avoid a Knifefight..

Roger Out..

Last edited by The Nephilim; 11/11/13 03:50 AM.

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#3862185 - 11/13/13 10:38 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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The best action is to have energy, if you are too close to stall speed is difficult to have a magic maneuvre to use after head on pass during the merge. Even more if you fly a P-51 and you don't have enough energy try to extend and fly away , if possible. A P-51 don't have BVR potential, so it is a bit easier to extend and bugout. Otherwise remember to try to use a 0 g's maneuvers for a couple of seconds if you have altitude, you will gain speed like hell but you will drop down from the sky as well so watch out your altimeter.


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