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#3767214 - 04/13/13 05:08 PM Gaining an advantage from head on pass?  
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Shadowdawn Offline
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Hi,
I'v always been into combat sims but i'v tried to get better at BFM.
Recently I was engaged in a dogfight on-line in the DCS P-51. We were both at a relatively low energy sate, the fight had decended to below 2000 ft with plenty of turning bleeding the energy.

He got on my six so I extended to try to get him outside my turning circle. I came back around to a head on pass.
But we just kept making head on passes constantly for about 9 or 10 passes, total stalemate. I try to avoid a guns shot head on because I always seem to have a mid air collision as the other fighter reacts and tries to get a shot off on me.

How can one get an advantage from a head on pass at low energy? We were just above stalling. Is it possible to avoid constant head on passes as each tries to gain an advantage?

Thanks!

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#3767221 - 04/13/13 05:28 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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An early turn is probably a good bet, you need to make it sufficiently out of plane that he burns energy trying to follow it (giving you an advantage in the following turn), but not so much that he can negate it by a lag roll.

A pass under his nose can be beneficial as he must then reverse nose high to follow ~ and at low altitude may result in his passing close to the ground (either with collision or avoiding action spoiling his tactical options).

The benefit of an early turn is greatest where it is done early, but too much and he can get a good snap-shot opportunity ~ you also forgo any shot opportunity of your own ~ looking for a tracking shot or low crossing angle snap-shot later.

#3767621 - 04/14/13 10:12 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Head on there is 2 options the Lead turn or the vertical option. IMO a lead turn is best in this situation with a low energy state the way to do it is lower the nose to increase speed while in the turn.



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#3769326 - 04/18/13 02:48 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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(Head on pass = AKA "Merge")

If I'm picturing what you guys were in correctly, you were in a scissors (your turn direction was reversing at each merge?)

1) If this was not the case, and you guys were merging and keeping the same turn direction (picture a clock, you're going around clockwise and he's going around counter-clockwise), that was an error by one of you! Reverse your turn at the next merge! especially if that means you can turn across the bandits tail. This now becomes and energy fight (2-circle), and there's a variety of tactics on how to win from here.

2) (Scissors) If at the INITIAL merge, and both turn the same CARDINAL direction (Both going south), this becomes a nose position fight. The first guy to point at the other will be able to REVERSE his turn and LEAD TURN the next merge. This devolves into a series of merges, each time the fighters reversing their turn direction. Eventually, pilot skill and aircraft performance will win this fight, the aircraft that is able to fly slower across the ground (either using a vertical component, or straight up slow speed) will force the other guy out front. The guy who gets forced in front will need to get out of this situation ASAP, because shortly there will be some gun opportunities. Most likely, the defensive fighter will merge again, and NOT reverse his turn, but instead keep that turn going and try to separate. At this point, the offensive fighter should recognize this situation, cash in any vertical turning room he has for nose position, and gun the snot out of the defender. smile

#3769985 - 04/19/13 02:47 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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There are two issues here that are worth mentioning.

First, you are fighting 1v1 similar. 1v1 similar fights often devolve into endless head on passes or Lufberrys as there are no innate differences between aircraft to exploit. As long as the two adversaries are generally even in pilot skill and no one makes an obvious error, these things can go on forever.

Second, you are already at low energy state. Just like the previous discussion on the Luf, you are asking how to get out of an undesirable situation. The best answer might be: don't get into an endless series of low energy head on passes in the first place. In real life, you would be better served by killing the bandit fast or getting out of Dodge while your energy is high...either to disengage or reengage on more favorable terms with surplus energy, and thus, options. Once you are low and slow, your choices have narrowed considerably.

Of course, if you and your buddy are fighting to the death with no wingmen, no mission objectives, and no limitations (like differing fuel states, proximity to friendly lines, etc) to consider, there is far less incentive to leave. As Sinnerman said, you could have tried some manner of vertical maneuvering, but your scenario seems to start after that energy state is past.

Personally, what I would do is redefine the fight one circle. If he is used to you going head to head by now, a tight turn in one circle flow would give you the initiative and maybe get you some angles before he realizes what is going on. Additionally, the one circle fight can be a very decisive fight. With high angles and fleeting chances at shots, the first person to make a substantial error, will often get gunned.

Just make sure that it's not you. wink

Deacon

#3770110 - 04/19/13 09:58 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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(or get better at H/O snapshot gunnery, so a single pass is all that is needed duckhunter )

#3773996 - 04/27/13 05:19 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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This is one of the reasons I loved iF-16 so much. I often would be coming home from a mission, and run into a MiG. We'd go nose-to-nose, and I'd start a turn around to start a furball, but he (the red AI) would just keep going. iF-16 I'd always run into jets who blew by praying I'd do the same. Most other sims no matter what baddies turn to fight, but this isn't realistic.

Not that that was my main sim- I just enjoyed that aspect of it.

What do you guys think of going vertical at the merge?

Last edited by IamFritz; 04/27/13 05:24 AM.

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#3774123 - 04/27/13 03:27 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: IamFritz]  
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Foolish, unless your bandit has no chance of following you. An ascending spiral is a valid way to deal with a bandit, but you have to be on ball and give yourself turning room but not to him.

Originally Posted By: IamFritz
What do you guys think of going vertical at the merge?


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#3774272 - 04/27/13 10:41 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Hi, I do not know where to go on this Forum for Help. I am trying to get my DID F22 ADF to work in Windows 7. I was able to load it in Vista, but now I have upgrade my computer to win. 7 64 and it will not install. Can you give me any suggestions or point me in the right direction.
Thank you very much.
Hammer27

#3774277 - 04/27/13 10:56 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Hammer27]  
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#3774408 - 04/28/13 07:26 AM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: IamFritz]  
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Originally Posted By: IamFritz

What do you guys think of going vertical at the merge?


Vertical is ok and it is an option if you are travelling quite fast you can use the vertical climb to bleed speed(eg supersonic) and get a tighter turn at corner speed. Vertical can also be used to defeat a Lead turn a Lead turn can be a Horizontal turn, Vertical or a combination of the 2. The problem with going vertical is if you lose to much speed you can be a sitting duck on the other hand a Split S behind another aircraft that's below you can cause you to overshoot a slower moving aircraft if you don't watch your airspeed.

Theres an example of a LEAD turn here:




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#3776517 - 05/02/13 03:10 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: IamFritz]  
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The vertical turn is not without its downside, but can be used effectively especially if you are fighting against a human opponent that doesn't necessarily have magic eyes.

It was a favorite of my old CO who would force one circle flow onto someone who just lead turned two circle. He would wing flash like he was going two circle, then level his wings and go vertical. Once in the vertical, he would roll to put the lift vector behind the bandit and squash his turn circle down to minimize his radius. If the bandit was oblivious, my CO would try to get behind the bandit's post and reverse nose low two circle which would leave him with some advantage.

If the bandit saw what was happening, he would be faced with either reversing nose high and giving up some angles or continuing nose low and coming into the next pass low to high and on from there.

As often as not, it would just surprise the other guy and make him take a second to decide what to do. Obviously this isn't generally modelled in the sim. wink

Deacon

#3776564 - 05/02/13 04:40 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Deacon211]  
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Neither is the simple counter to it, which is to watch the bandit and proceed with an ascending spiral.

Originally Posted By: Deacon211
As often as not, it would just surprise the other guy and make him take a second to decide what to do. Obviously this isn't generally modelled in the sim. wink


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#3776581 - 05/02/13 05:05 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Deacon211]  
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Originally Posted By: Deacon211

As often as not, it would just surprise the other guy and make him take a second to decide what to do. Obviously this isn't generally modelled in the sim. wink

Deacon


I remember my TOPGUN buddies as saying that one of the good things about a head on merge is that if flown close enough to the other guy you might just rattle him enough to gain a few seconds of time to then make your move while he was still trying to get his composure back!!

#3776727 - 05/02/13 10:22 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Andy Bush]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Neither is the simple counter to it, which is to watch the bandit and proceed with an ascending spiral.

Originally Posted By: Deacon211
As often as not, it would just surprise the other guy and make him take a second to decide what to do. Obviously this isn't generally modelled in the sim. wink


And yet I've watched a lot of HUD tape of my skipper blasting guys doing it, and I've done it with some success myself.

In the plane, there is nothing simple about twisting your head around, pulling 7-9Gs, and keeping sight of someone. Taking advantage of that fact is all part of the game.



Originally Posted By: Andy Bush
Originally Posted By: Deacon211

As often as not, it would just surprise the other guy and make him take a second to decide what to do. Obviously this isn't generally modelled in the sim. wink

Deacon


I remember my TOPGUN buddies as saying that one of the good things about a head on merge is that if flown close enough to the other guy you might just rattle him enough to gain a few seconds of time to then make your move while he was still trying to get his composure back!!


Ha!

I never did DACT against a Tomcat, but that flying tennis court has got to be intimidating...even at the 500ft ACM bubble.

And I suspect that some of those Tomcat guys might have pushed that on occasion. biggrin

#3776919 - 05/03/13 01:52 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Deacon211]  
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So in other words, they did it wrong? smile You won't be pulling 7-9g's in an ascending spiral (although you might be at the merge, maybe ... but then you're ready to be watching that bandit, no?)

Originally Posted By: Deacon211
And yet I've watched a lot of HUD tape of my skipper blasting guys doing it, and I've done it with some success myself.

In the plane, there is nothing simple about twisting your head around, pulling 7-9Gs, and keeping sight of someone. Taking advantage of that fact is all part of the game.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 05/03/13 01:53 PM.

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#3777458 - 05/04/13 05:41 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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Well, I posted, but it got lost in cyberspace somewhere...twice.

In short, no, they didn't get it wrong. Although the concept is the same. When you honk on a big max rate turn in the actual jet, your head is glued to the headrest, your vision is narrowed to nothing and you are going to lose sight of the other guy for a few seconds as you pass behind each other's six. Even the F-16, which has great vis, is limited by the pilot's neck and he is going to be contorted into all sorts of positions to try to keep sight. It's going to be hard to see the other guy and you may even need to glance back towards your HUD to ensure you are flying your best turn and not turning yourself into a lawn dart.

Regaining sight is largely going to be a matter of looking where you'd expect the other guy to be. If the bandit doesn't see you or if he doesn't see you right away, (either a frequent occurrence) you are essentially flying a one circle fight with him stuck nose low thinking he's fighting two circle.

When (if) the bandit does see you, he may well put lift vector on and spiral up. But for several seconds he has been essentially arcing out of plane with you, while you have been driving one circle flow. In the best case, you have a good bite on him. If you can do some of that high alpha stuff (like in the Hornet or SU-27), you may even point your nose at him, which is intimidating as hell and may even make the bandit react defensively.

Worst case, you meet the bandit in a second high to low pass and continue the fight from there.

Of course, much of this plays on the phisiology of an actual fight. In most sims, you have padlock or Track IR and often the adversary's size is enhanced to make up for the limitations of the computer. Plus, the vis is always great which is absolutely not the case in real life.

Thus, if you can see the other guy immediately go vertical, then the counter becomes "simple" and the tactic loses some of it's utility. And arguably, since we have narrowed this discussion to the Viper, there is generally little reason to not just out rate the bandit and kill him the "easy" way. On the other hand, I have absolutely talked to some Hornet pilots who would rather stick to one circle if they knew the bandit came along equipped with capable off boresight missiles and helmet mounted sights. So, as in most pursuits, I'd hesitate to say "always" or "never".

But in a sim where you are flying the disadvantaged fighter, like maybe the F-15 in DCS against some adversaries, there's is significant value to getting creative.

In the end, this tactic works for the same reason that faking a punch and then kicking a guy in the Jimmy does...it seizes the initiative and exploits the other guys delayed reaction by doing exactly what he wasn't expecting.

Or, using a phrase that, being a fellow Marine, I know you've heard: "It gets inside the other guy's OODA Loop". smile

Deacon

#3777772 - 05/05/13 02:54 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_041a.html

"The biggest mistake made during head-on BFM is losing sight of the bandit. Since you can't fight what you can't see, this is a sure way to get your knickers ripped. The absolute best BFM move is no good if you lose sight of the bandit halfway through the maneuver. Some other common head-on BFM mistakes are insufficient G, poor airspeed control, bad lift vector control, failure to lead turn. (and trying to BFM in an F-14 smile )"

So i guess it comes down to whoever makes fewer mistakes, will win the fight.

Last edited by CTR69; 05/05/13 02:54 PM.
#3778184 - 05/06/13 03:01 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Shadowdawn]  
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I think that sums it up very well. Keep in mind though that "losing sight" in the context of the statement above, means "losing SA". There will be many times in a fight that you will need to look away from the bandit. You just need to know where he is so you can find him again. Thus, there is a somewhat hidden implication:

If you keep the bandit in sight, but you have crappy aircraft control, that's bad BFM.

If you fly the perfect turn, but lose sight of the bandit for any length of time, that's also bad BFM.

You need to do both well, and it's in the seams of the fight that much of the gamesmanship occurs. It's interesting to watch, especially 1v1 similar. Despite having the same performance, the better pilot will drive the lesser pilot around the sky. He will act first and generally force the other guy to RE-act. If there is a big disparity in skill, the fight will end fairly swiftly. If the two opponents are on more equal footing, then the better pilot may win a few degrees at a time. On occasion though, one guy misses the mark and the roles may be reversed or the lesser guy may fold.

Dissimilar adds the dimension of capitalizing on your aircraft's relative strengths. Relative, because your aircraft may be better at everything, just more better at some things than others.

Alternately of course you aircraft might not be better at anything...just less worse at some things than others. wink

Deacon

#3778397 - 05/06/13 09:20 PM Re: Gaining an advantage from head on pass? [Re: Deacon211]  
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Originally Posted By: Deacon211
I think that sums it up very well. Keep in mind though that "losing sight" in the context of the statement above, means "losing SA". There will be many times in a fight that you will need to look away from the bandit. You just need to know where he is so you can find him again. Thus, there is a somewhat hidden implication:


I've seen some vids and the guys just know when and where the bandit will pop in their sights again, based on the turn he was doing. So it comes down to experience. This is easier in BMS with the JHMCS, where you can keep the "lock" and maintain corner velocity at the same time.

But how do you do this with instruments only, where you can't see and FEEL your speed and altitude all the time? Do you keep "switching" the view all the time?

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