I'm often getting caught (locked) in the exhausting turn fight with another plane, where i'm pulling hard and he's doing the same, so we're basically chasing each others tails, but we're at the opposite sides of the circle. Is the yoyo best move to break such cycle and gain an advantage?
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#3723164 - 01/23/1303:30 AMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
The best way to break the cycle depends on what you're both doing. There's no simple answer. You could slow down and get inside his turn circle, or you could risk letting him do that and keep your energy so that you'll get around him eventually (and here the yo-yo actually becomes a viable tactic ... a yo-yo MAY help if you do it while you're both pulling hard and slowing, but it depends)
-- 44th VFW
#3723366 - 01/23/1303:31 PMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 2,477HomeFries
Air Dominance Project
HomeFries
Air Dominance Project
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,477
The longer you're in a turning fight, the smaller your window for escape. This due to both reduced situational awareness (i.e. you padlock your target at the expense of everything else) and your reduced kinetic energy state that would physically allow you to separate.
If you find yourself in a protracted dogfight, you need to determine your tactical situation. Can you afford to "play for time" (e.g. you're behind your own lines, or you know that support will be there shortly), or does this work against you? How low and slow are you? What is your fuel state in relation to Bingo? Does your opponent have a missile?
If you have enough energy and your opponent is out of missiles, you might be able to engage the blower, extend, and dive to gain airspeed and separation. If you have the gas and are over your own lines, your opponent is less likely to follow, and without a missile he won't be able to take a potshot at you. Your window of vulnerability will be the initial separation where you loosen his turn circle and expose yourself while still in cannon range, so it's best to disengage after a high aspect pass (if you're in a two circle fight). It also helps to fly erratically (jink) while extending to complicate a guns solution.
If your opponent has a heater, then you're committed to the fight unless he makes a mistake and loses sight of you, at which point you may have a window of opportunity to separate. 3 miles and opening should keep you out of heater range.
Honestly, the best way to manage a dogfight is with a supporting wingman. While you're engaged, a good wingman will keep an eye on your fight, maintain your SA for you while you're padlocked on the bandit, and maintain a high energy state but be in position to jump in as required. When you get into a turning stalemate, he might be in a better position to take over the engagement and pull lead, while you take up the supporting role. It's like tag team wrestling, but at 400kts.
-Home Fries
"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty." - Robert A. Heinlein
The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
Honestly, the best way to manage a dogfight is with a supporting wingman. While you're engaged, a good wingman will keep an eye on your fight, maintain your SA for you while you're padlocked on the bandit, and maintain a high energy state but be in position to jump in as required. When you get into a turning stalemate, he might be in a better position to take over the engagement and pull lead, while you take up the supporting role. It's like tag team wrestling, but at 400kts.
That's true, i only get into these situations when i play solo training missions where there's no wingman around to help.
#3730223 - 02/04/1304:44 AMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
Joined: Oct 1999 Posts: 5,955Andy Bush Site Emeritus Air Combat Forum Moderator
Andy Bush Site Emeritus Air Combat Forum Moderator Hotshot
This is one of those questions where the answer depends on establishing the parameters of the situation. The simplest way to do that is to stipulate that the two aircraft have the same maneuvering capability. Then we have to define the turn that they are doing. Are they turning at or close to 'best turn'? That is how these situations are normally posed...two similar performing fighters in a hard, level turn where aspect is about 90 degrees and angle off is about 180 degrees (in other words, they are across the circle from each other.
With that in mind, now we go to what the desired objective is...usually this means one fighter maneuvers to reduce aspect and angle off in order to improve his six o'clock position against the other aircraft.
The major error that I have seen folks make whenever we discuss this question is to forget that the defender is continuing to turn as we describe the maneuvering of the attacker. This results in us seeing the attacker maneuvering against a defender who essentially is frozen in space. Obviously, this isn't how it works.
Because of our assumption that both aircraft are maneuvering at or close to 'best turn', then there is nothing left for the attacker to use to turn inside the defender's circle, in other words, the attacker doesn't have any more g to work with. This 'best turn' is at or close to min radius and max rate...slowing down probably won't result in a significant improvement (smaller turn radius) and will usually result in a lower turn rate. Any maneuver diagram can show you this.
As for a yo-yo or barrel roll, if the defender knows what he is doing, as soon as he sees the attacker's nose come up, the defender will immediately unload and go for separation. If the defender were to stay in his hard turn, neither maneuver will benefit the attacker. The barrel roll doesn't apply in this situation...a barrel roll is used to decrease aspect when at a relatively low angle off...in this situation, angle off is at the maximum. A yo-yo is intended to reduce closure while reducing angle off...in this situation, we don't have a closure problem...in fact, the fight is stagnated.
There is no magic move that will put the attacker at the defender's six as long as the defender is continuing his hard turn. If the attacker chooses an out of plane maneuver, the defender can use one of his own to continue to keep the attacker at arm's length.
In summary, where I see most folks going wrong when they consider an out of plane maneuver to cross the turning circle is that they forget that they are already at max g...they don't have any additional g to use to cut across the circle. They can change the direction of their lift vector, but that only allows the defender to separate.
As someone said, don't get into one of these things to begin with. It makes you very predictable. and the only way to break the stagnation is to go for separation.
#3730395 - 02/04/1304:17 PMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
So, if you were to initiate a yo-yo and he unloads and goes for seperation, doesn't this at least have the advantage of him still being the defender,ie., he's still out front? Whereas if you are the first to break out of the circle, you'll be? If you are in a missile fight, this could give you the advantage, even in a 1v1 guns fight at least you're out of the (stagnant) circle with the advantage. Of course, that's if he takes the "bait", as you said, he could just continue his turn, in which case, no harm done, no?
Last edited by Topcat; 02/04/1304:19 PM.
#3730438 - 02/04/1305:42 PMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
Actually you lose position if you do it wrong, so you could very well do harm. If he knows what he's doing, he could unload just enough to get his corner speed back, and then he'll be the one sitting behind your 3-9 line after he spends say a turn and a half using his speed.
Of course, again, it all depends.
-- 44th VFW
#3730709 - 02/05/1312:17 AMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: Topcat]
Joined: Oct 1999 Posts: 5,955Andy Bush Site Emeritus Air Combat Forum Moderator
Andy Bush Site Emeritus Air Combat Forum Moderator Hotshot
The number of 'what ifs' and 'yeah buts' that can be raised in this situation are numerous...and don't contribute much to those looking for a quick answer.
There is no quick answer, given the conditions I described..
My point was to show that yo-yos and barrel rolls are not the solution to a stagnated turning contest.
Just remember that few fighters can sustain corner speed. Also, corner speed is not so much a tactic as it is the basis for one on one energy comparisons using maneuver diagrams.
#3755231 - 03/22/1312:44 AMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
I can't add anything to Andy's excellent responses, but I would like to offer some suggestions that may be helpful the next time you find yourself in the situation you describe.
Finding yourself across the circle from a similar aircraft as yours with the same configuration as yours and with an equally skilled pilot is a fairly unlikely occurrence unless it happens as part of a training flight. More realistically differences in the aircraft or configuration and pilot ability will mean that the opponents in this scenario will be looking for a way to exploit any strengths or weaknesses to gain an advantage. In my experience the best way to gain the advantage doesn't involve trying to break the cycle, it involves doing it better than your opponent. To do that you need to be aware of some general guidelines, some things you can do, and some things you shouldn't.
Always use full power in a prop or AB in a jet.
Drop any stores you can spare, bombs missiles or droptanks will degrade turning performance.
In a prop pull all the way to the edge of the envelope and ride the stall.
In a Jet know the speed where the Ps=0 curve peaks and stay there. Often close to Corner velocity.
Know your flaps, some aircraft will turn better with flaps extended, some worse, you need to know your aircraft's sweetspot.
Train for it. In a neutral fight victory may come down to pilot stamina or endurance, don't be the one to break first.
Learn to read the visual cues so you can quickly and acurately spot which of you is gaining or losing angles.
If you are gaining, be patient, stay focused and don't risk departures or other mistakes.
If you are losing angles, don't delay, break off and push over for speed to maximise separation.
Those things should optimise your chances of success.
Good luck
#3755272 - 03/22/1302:21 AMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
You could consider two options. First one is raise your lift vector slightly of he bandit to test his awareness. You may be able to gain some vertical turning room that can be used to bring your nose to threaten without sacrificing too much energy.
Option two is to drive the fight. Break through corner to threaten with nose position, then ease to regain energy as the bandit is forced to reduce power and react to an IR or radar threat. Ideally, you force the bandit to make an error which you can capitalize on. The key is to immediately recognize that you have entered a stagnated 2 circle fight, and take the initiative. Additionally, consider what will happen when you get to the deck with the bandit. Will you have a manoeuvre advantage there, if so continue and gain the advantage, if not - drive the fight, force a BFM error.
Admittedly, this is only helpful against human opponents, not sure how it would fair against Ai.
Last edited by Cmatt; 03/24/1301:16 AM.
#3756100 - 03/23/1312:03 PMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,509Deacon211
Senior Member
These have all been great responses. The only thing I'd like to add is that you need to keep the bigger picture in mind.
Ideally, the only two circle fight you should enter is one you know you are going to win. The true and somewhat esoteric sign of the superior fighter pilot is that he forces the other fighter pilot to fight his worst fight.
So, if you know you are going to lose the long two circle fight, don't get in one or don't stay in one until you are down on the deck and out of options. If you aren't going to win the Luf, keep the fight tight and stay in the other guy's shorts or sell some altitude or airspeed to keep the angles high, pass 180 out and separate.
Then you can reengage or disengage as you wish. If the first pass is insufficient to get you clear (depending on weapons, fuel, etc), turn back in and try again.
In any case, don't ever (willingly) let the bandit drive you low and slow if that's what he does best. 1v1 similar is much harder since the differences in capability are personal instead of technological. But the same rules apply.
Deacon
#3763951 - 04/07/1301:05 PMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
One could initiate a smallish yoyo like manouever with in the same circular track and give themselves some small windows of possible lag side shots, but that assumes the other guy continues his turn in the original plane. I agree that it's best to avoid the situtaion or separate and set up anew or run.
following up on the suggestion from SteveZodiac, another thing to do is to "pump" quickly on the stick quickly while pulling hard G. This is gives the effect of a hard G turn but retains more of the energy - and in a turn fight the one who has more energy win's...
Wait for the bandit to try and exit the turn fight - automatically giving you his 6.
This (all of the above) is why I have gravitated to FSX,
When Il-2, BoB, et. al. came out, I tried to learn all this stuff, bought and read all the books, and still never came even close to proficiency. Fun, but I guess I was just never meant to be a combat pilot, even on the PC.
(Still, I have RoF and CloD installed, so who knows?)
Hi, I'm Larry and this my brother Dayrle, and this is my other brother Dayrle.
#3775521 - 04/30/1305:34 PMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
The simplest way to master dogfighting is to start small so start with a decent interceptor vs an unarmed bomber/transport. The best way to start is your approach on the other aircrafts 6. Then once you've got the hang of that head to head same aircraft and practice snapshot and Lead turns. Once you've mastered those the next aircraft should be an aircraft of less performance than your own but armed. eg F-15C vs SU25 So start off small and work your way up.
"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3776401 - 05/02/1310:26 AMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
I'm practicing 1vs1 guns-only TE, so that's MiG29. I pull too hard on the merge, so i quickly fall below corner speed. So first thing is to stay at corner speed at all times and going from there, i guess. I do eventually creep onto his 6, but it takes way longer than 1 minute.
#3776469 - 05/02/1301:47 PMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
No, the first thing is to decide if you're doing a one circle or a two circle fight, and thus whether you are staying at corner speed or not - and that's just the simplest decision you have to make when merging.
The simplest way to master dogfighting is to start flying UPT formation exercises, specifically rejoins and extended trail/fighting wing exercises - with an instructor.
This stuff about intercepting bombers is not effective - it's called throwing the baby in the water to teach it how to swim, but unfortunately, it rarely works this way with air to air combat.
Air to air combat requires a lot of information, and intercepting bombers gives you none of that.
Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
The simplest way to master dogfighting is to start small so start with a decent interceptor vs an unarmed bomber/transport. The best way to start is your approach on the other aircrafts 6. Then once you've got the hang of that head to head same aircraft and practice snapshot and Lead turns. Once you've mastered those the next aircraft should be an aircraft of less performance than your own but armed. eg F-15C vs SU25 So start off small and work your way up.
Last edited by GrayGhost; 05/02/1301:53 PM.
-- 44th VFW
#3776485 - 05/02/1302:18 PMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,509Deacon211
Senior Member
Personally, I would say that was doing it the hard way. The MiG-29 is about as good an adversary as you can find...definitely a good match for even the F-16.
Honestly, for starters, you should really fight 1v0. It's not sexy, but it will make you a better pilot. You should know if you can pull a level turn at various altitudes. If not, how much nose low will you need to stay at corner speed? Can you hold max G and corner speed on the deck? If you accelerate (like in the big mouthed Vipers), what kind of climb rate can you achieve? What is the min altitude that you can pull a split S? Can you park your nose up in the air and fly at min speed as if you were in a Flat Scissors? With your nose parked up, what will the rudder do for you? Just go out and bend the jet around and understand how she flies.
These are all important questions and ever more important if you are flying something that doesn't have the AOA and G limiters of a modern jet. The less performance or the less technology you have, the more you need to feel the airplane. Even in a "magic jet" you can squander your resources, if you aren't smart about it.
After you can fly your airplane, then you should consider beating up on someone else's. As noted above, a Fitter or Fishbed might allow you some "performance excess" to practice. A Fulcrum on the other hand, has about the same amount of performance as you. Depending on how accurately it is modeled, you should need to fight well to beat it. Remember as well that the AI aircraft is flown by an AI pilot, so there is a big question about how well he is programmed to fly and if he is allowed to cheat.
Lastly, don't be afraid to change it up. Try going vertical. Try fighting one circle. Have a plan for different adversaries and know both what your airplane is best at and also what you are best at.
Inevitably, you will fight better the more you fight. While modern BFM training is relatively structured, traditionally a nugget got good at BFM by getting the crap gunned out of him by the skipper.
So, learn something from the fights that don't go your way...and be thankful you weren't in the Battle of Britain and going into combat with ten hours of flight time.
Deacon
#3776766 - 05/03/1312:29 AMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
I'm practicing 1vs1 guns-only TE, so that's MiG29. I pull too hard on the merge, so i quickly fall below corner speed. So first thing is to stay at corner speed at all times and going from there, i guess. I do eventually creep onto his 6, but it takes way longer than 1 minute.
What sim? If its Falcon then flying against SU27s is a lot easier, Mig29s in both Falcon and DCS are quite agile and can turn and climb a lot better also the SU27 has a bigger airframe so its easier to spot and shoot down. AI SU27s in F4AF will fly slow eventually and are sitting ducks at low speed.
"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
The simplest way to master dogfighting is to start flying UPT formation exercises, specifically rejoins and extended trail/fighting wing exercises - with an instructor.
This stuff about intercepting bombers is not effective - it's called throwing the baby in the water to teach it how to swim, but unfortunately, it rarely works this way with air to air combat.
Air to air combat requires a lot of information, and intercepting bombers gives you none of that.
UPT should already have been learned before doing dogfights and yes big targets are better to learn gunnery on as they are easier to hit before you start doing the more difficult faster moving targets. With enough practice 1 vs 8 is possible.
"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
Hitting targets isn't dogfighting. Gunnery is the very last part you do AFTER you are done dogfighting. UPT formation is the key to dogfighting. I'd like to see your 1vs8 against trained players, not AI ... heck, even a 1v1 or 1v2. You'll not even get to shoot one guy down in the 1v2.
Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
UPT should already have been learned before doing dogfights and yes big targets are better to learn gunnery on as they are easier to hit before you start doing the more difficult faster moving targets. With enough practice 1 vs 8 is possible.
I've beaten 2 players in mp it happens and I've also seen really good guys win against me and another pilot. It happens BTW just because its AI doesn't mean that they cannot shoot me down as can be seen in the video.
UPT or in this case BFT campaign 2 ship lol.
BTW this is an earlier version of this payware campaign for DCS World A-10C. IMO the latest version has most bugs removed.
Next time I manage to find the time I'll record a track of mp guns only if I can find a decent server with other players.
"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3880575 - 12/20/1312:10 PMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]
UPT = undergraduate pilot training? Presumably those pilot trainees, would train for formation flying and such basic flight manouvers (under the stern watch of instructors)
I was never in the air force sadly. My eyeballs in real life, were always too weak for that kind of thing. Myopia and astigmatism
Perhaps, the children of the future, have better opportunities of chasing their dream (military pilot)
Last edited by Laurwin; 12/20/1312:11 PM.
#3880858 - 12/20/1307:58 PMRe: How to break the turn fight?
[Re: CTR69]