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#3694295 - 12/07/12 12:16 AM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: citizen guod]  
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I would like to just point out the obvious really fast, this is something I posted at LockonFiles at the time of this review being posted.

Quote:

If it was an A2A product getting pounded to pieces, there wouldnt be any naysayers in the forums crying foul. But then again, those who are biased towards one or the other havent tried both of the products, and they are only bashing certain abilities each model has. Such as A2A's continuously degrading systems and including maintenance, to TFCs "combat sim". Does this really matter? They are both flight simulators, TREAT THEM AS SUCH. Just because A2A doesnt include any firing weapons doesnt make it inferior to TFCs damage model, nor does TFCs lack of system degradation make it inferior to A2As mustang. Plain and simple, it comes down to accuracy of the flight model.

Im going to lay down some nuts and bolts here. Each and every aircraft in itself is different, and each aircraft will handle differently from one another. You can go so far as to how the rudders/ailerons were installed on the aircraft, how good the aileron/rudders were rigged, how well fabricated the rigging was at the time they were installed, and what were the lines set at at the time of installation? Temperature and humidity play a part in it as well, as cold weather can tighten control lines, hot weather can loosen control lines, and weather can vastly change handling characteristics. So which model is more correct? You find a P-51D pilot who has a lot of time invested, and you get them to test fly both models for 50 flight hours in every clime and place. You test stall characteristics, engine performance, roll rates, angles of attack, G loading, and whether or not the aircraft handles true to its original form. Is the A2A Mustang powered by an Allison V1710 or a Rolls Royce Merlin V1710? Are they both turbo-supercharged? Do they both have the same ceiling/climb rate/range? Do they both simulate P-Effect (prop wash slamming against the fuselage on one side of the fuselage)?

Both TFC and A2A faithfully reproduce the cockpit and avionics, so that isnt even a given. The models are perfect for their [color:"#FF0000"]INTENDED NICHE[/color] . Nobody should care that this airplane contains this feature or lacks that feature when it comes to air combat or system maintenance. The pilot isnt going to do maintenance, and you havent see P-51's engaging in combat since the Korean war. What matters to the pilot is whether or not it is flyable. Anyone else who thinks otherwise is just a biased idiot fanboi.


If you want an unbiased opinion of either product, try them out yourselves. I have both, Ive flown them both, I find them both to be a huge PITA to fly. My review of both simulators -unbiased, by the way- is A2A being my plane of choice simply because the atmosphere presented while flying this particular aircraft. The sounds, creaking and moaning, the wing buffets...outweigh the buggy Eagle Dynamics DCS Mustang by far. And yet I fly them both. Its nice to have functional guns once in a while. The skinny is, this aircraft was born to race, and you can do that in either simulator. Its a matter of preferences, nothing more. And since Im not a P-51D pilot, I cant verify the accuracy of said flight models. But I do trust those who say the A2A simulator is more accurate. That said, my first choice of aircraft to fly is the DCS A-10C.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3694322 - 12/07/12 01:06 AM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: citizen guod]  
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Bravo! Hitman thumbsup

#3694477 - 12/07/12 09:46 AM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: citizen guod]  
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Quote:
...outweigh the buggy Eagle Dynamics DCS Mustang by far. And yet I fly them both. Its nice to have functional guns once in a while. The skinny is, this aircraft was born to race, and you can do that in either simulator. Its a matter of preferences, nothing more. And since Im not a P-51D pilot, I cant verify the accuracy of said flight models. But I do trust those who say the A2A simulator is more accurate. 


That is such a cop-out.. "Im not a P51 pilot"...

Please tell me what show stopping bugs there are in ED's offering? Im truly at a loss here because I havent come across any. Also, it was't born to race.. it was born to fight. If doing circuits and 'buzzing your house' rocks your boat, by all means go with FSX. In all other cases, DCS is your better bet. It definately has the better flightmodel. No, I haven't flown a P51 but I am qualified enough to make an accurate assesment as to what is possible regarding the laws of physics and that is all there is to it. Although A2A offers a wonderful flight model, it all falls apart on the edges. Thats not A2A fault... it's just a limitation of the underlying game engine. Is that a surprise... of course not! The engine is based on tech from decades past. Also this idea that DCS doesn't offer system degradation iscompletely false. There are many failures simulated... possibly more than A2A although I can't verify that claim.

At the end of the day you should play what you like playing but don't twist facts or be ignorant :-)

Last edited by Chaos; 12/07/12 09:53 AM.

"It's not the years honey, it's the mileage..."
#3694526 - 12/07/12 12:05 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: Chaos]  
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Originally Posted By: Chaos

That is such a cop-out.. "Im not a P51 pilot"...

Please tell me what show stopping bugs there are in ED's offering? Im truly at a loss here because I havent come across any.
Did I say they were show stoppers? Where at did I say these bugs were show stoppers? You can check their bug forums for bugs.
http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=173

Quote:
Also, it was't born to race.. it was born to fight. If doing circuits and 'buzzing your house' rocks your boat, by all means go with FSX.
Actually, yes it was. You can ask any P-51 pilot worth his salt, and they will tell you exactly the same thing I just did. It is a thoroughbred racing pony through and through. You think they just wound up in the Reno air races after the war up until today? No. The very original design was to set speed records from the get-go.

Quote:
In all other cases, DCS is your better bet. It definately has the better flightmodel. No, I haven't flown a P51 but I am qualified enough to make an accurate assesment as to what is possible regarding the laws of physics and that is all there is to it.
Are you really? Are you a physicist? So you arent a P-51 mustang pilot but you just "know" that the DCS model is better? This sounds more like a cop-out than the cop out you claim I made. Wonderful.

Quote:
Although A2A offers a wonderful flight model, it all falls apart on the edges. Thats not A2A fault... it's just a limitation of the underlying game engine. Is that a surprise... of course not! The engine is based on tech from decades past.


Thats where Accusim comes into play - think outside the box, so they say, and thats what they have done.

Quote:
Also this idea that DCS doesn't offer system degradation iscompletely false. There are many failures simulated... possibly more than A2A although I can't verify that claim.


So you can do maintenance on your aircraft in DCS? Ive been flying it since day 1, and I have yet to see this offering...even though I dont much care for A2A's use of system maintenance.

Quote:
At the end of the day you should play what you like playing but don't twist facts or be ignorant :-)
Like you are trending to be? How very hypocritical.

Last edited by HitmanLOF; 12/07/12 12:11 PM.
#3694564 - 12/07/12 01:21 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: citizen guod]  
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You can repair a broken wing P-51D in DCS by ground crews. But you can never break a A2A P-51D's Wing in FSX. Not mention repairing it.
That's why A2A products are best FSX addon, and DCS P-51D is the best P-51D sim.

FSX has much more bugs than DCS. But I never post bugs of A2A P-51 in A2A forum. Because I know even all bugs had been fixed, the P-51D in FSX could not fire or been damaged by any enemy's fire.

To HitmanLOF, great pix! FSX has a very good graphic engine for flight sim. but still has problems with it. Better pix also require better PS skills. And if we have more than 30 players dogfighting in such scenery, low fps will kill most of them.

Last edited by BillEinstein; 12/07/12 01:31 PM.
#3694570 - 12/07/12 01:27 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: BillEinstein]  
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Originally Posted By: BillEinstein
You can repair a broken wing P-51D in DCS by ground crews. But you can never break a A2A P-51D's Wing in FSX. Not mention repairing it.
That's why A2A products are best FSX addon, and DCS P-51D is the best P-51D sim.

Yes, that much is true. Thing is I dont judge by what each company has to offer outside of flight, because its the flight that matters to me. I can break the airplane equally in both simulators. Now that I have that out of the way...

Quote:
To HitmanLOF, great pix! FSX has a very good graphic engine for flight sim. but still has problems with it. Better pix also require better PS skills. And if we have more than 30 players dogfighting in such scenery, low fps will kill most of them.


I dont fly online for personal reasons. Be it lag, cheaters, exploiters, or just simply because of the new people who lack any online manners. Otherwise, I enjoy them both equally. I just happen to have over 10,000 more hours in FSX than DCS, and Ive been flying Eagle Dynamics products since 2002.

Last edited by HitmanLOF; 12/07/12 01:28 PM.
#3694578 - 12/07/12 01:41 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: HitmanLOF]  
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BillEinstein Offline
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Originally Posted By: HitmanLOF
I just happen to have over 10,000 more hours in FSX than DCS, and Ive been flying Eagle Dynamics products since 2002.

FSX was published in 2006. "10,000 more hours" means that you fly FSX 4.5 hours more than DCS EVERY day in this six years. What a pity if they were all single play hours.
You may enjoy your single flight. But for a good sim, the Multiplay is one of the most important parts.

#3694594 - 12/07/12 01:57 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: BillEinstein]  
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addman Offline
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Swede in Finland :)
Originally Posted By: BillEinstein
You may enjoy your single flight. But for a good sim, the Multiplay is one of the most important parts.


That's highly subjective, you can't tell someone mp is better if that person enjoys sp more, there's no arguing there. It's all personal preference.

Last edited by addman; 12/07/12 01:58 PM.

It rushed along like an arrow, but when you lost control you could end up beneath its hoofs. Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin comment on the MiG-3
#3694596 - 12/07/12 02:02 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: citizen guod]  
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BillEinstein Offline
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For the sim I said, not for any single person. smile2

Originally Posted By: HitmanLOF

Like you are trending to be? How very hypocritical.

Originally Posted By: addman

That's highly subjective, you can't tell someone mp is better if that person enjoys sp more, there's no arguing there. It's all personal preference.


Last edited by BillEinstein; 12/07/12 02:06 PM.
#3694602 - 12/07/12 02:15 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: citizen guod]  
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HitmanLOF Offline
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As a sim, I fly them both. A LOT. SP is my cup of tea, but I still fly them both. And Im not saying I "have" 10,000 flight hours logged, BUT! I have and still do fly it on average 3-5 hours a day. My longest stretch was to see how far I can fly the VRS SuperHornet in ferry, and Ive flown from Jackson Hole to Honolulu in that flight. Kinda hard to do that in DCS. I take my hobby seriously!

#3694620 - 12/07/12 02:38 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: citizen guod]  
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BillEinstein Offline
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4.5h are the average hours. Don't worry about it.
VFAT is playing these days. You can watch and find some beauty of MP with it. Enjoy the weekend!
But livestream is blocked by my government here in China. offtopic

#3694634 - 12/07/12 02:58 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: HitmanLOF]  
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Originally Posted By: HitmanLOF
Originally Posted By: Chaos



Quote:
In all other cases, DCS is your better bet. It definately has the better flightmodel. No, I haven't flown a P51 but I am qualified enough to make an accurate assesment as to what is possible regarding the laws of physics and that is all there is to it.
Are you really? Are you a physicist? So you arent a P-51 mustang pilot but you just "know" that the DCS model is better? This sounds more like a cop-out than the cop out you claim I made. Wonderful.

[quote]Although A2A offers a wonderful flight model, it all falls apart on the edges. Thats not A2A fault... it's just a limitation of the underlying game engine. Is that a surprise... of course not! The engine is based on tech from decades past.


Thats where Accusim comes into play - think outside the box, so they say, and thats what they have done.



Chaos is right. Even if he is not real life pilot he feels right.

Truly i haven't flown P-51 but i got pilot license for both planes and gliders (aerobatic planes also) and i could feel if flight model in sim is good or no. Definitly FSX engine is poor regarding flight phycis and any A2A plane can't change these. Im sure A2A make the best what they can in FSX engine but simply DCS is much better here ( stall,spin, flick manouvers but also landings phycics), the same ROF and Cliffs of Dover Su26. No metter what said armchair pilots here im sure what i said. A2A planes never be such good in flight model in FSX environment like proved to be P-51 in DCS World.

Last edited by Kwiatek; 12/07/12 02:59 PM.
#3694637 - 12/07/12 03:01 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: BillEinstein]  
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scotsmen54 Offline
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Originally Posted By: BillEinstein
Originally Posted By: HitmanLOF
I just happen to have over 10,000 more hours in FSX than DCS, and Ive been flying Eagle Dynamics products since 2002.

FSX was published in 2006. "10,000 more hours" means that you fly FSX 4.5 hours more than DCS EVERY day in this six years. What a pity if they were all single play hours.
You may enjoy your single flight. But for a good sim, the Multiplay is one of the most important parts.



More people Fly SP than MP. Your stats not ours.

#3694643 - 12/07/12 03:17 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: Kwiatek]  
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Originally Posted By: Kwiatek
Originally Posted By: HitmanLOF
[quote=Chaos]


Quote:
In all other cases, DCS is your better bet. It definately has the better flightmodel. No, I haven't flown a P51 but I am qualified enough to make an accurate assesment as to what is possible regarding the laws of physics and that is all there is to it.
Are you really? Are you a physicist? So you arent a P-51 mustang pilot but you just "know" that the DCS model is better? This sounds more like a cop-out than the cop out you claim I made. Wonderful.

Quote:
Although A2A offers a wonderful flight model, it all falls apart on the edges. Thats not A2A fault... it's just a limitation of the underlying game engine. Is that a surprise... of course not! The engine is based on tech from decades past.


Thats where Accusim comes into play - think outside the box, so they say, and thats what they have done.



Chaos is right. Even if he is not real life pilot he feels right.

Truly i haven't flown P-51 but i got pilot license for both planes and gliders (aerobatic planes also) and i could feel if flight model in sim is good or no. Definitly FSX engine is poor regarding flight phycis and any A2A plane can't change these. Im sure A2A make the best what they can in FSX engine but simply DCS is much better here ( stall,spin, flick manouvers but also landings phycics), the same ROF and Cliffs of Dover Su26. No metter what said armchair pilots here im sure what i said. A2A planes never be such good in flight model in FSX environment like proved to be P-51 in DCS World.


There is a lot to flight physics than just throwing the name out there. A2A covers more in that area than DCS. Go and look at youtube and watch some flying for Both, it will become obvious. Listen to what is described in how A2A simulates the engine. Very detailed information. thing is you don't, you just regurgitate old information. I have not seen any in depth info from Eagle Dynamics on anything. There are no big secrets here A2A uses accusim, IRIS use something else for Physics.

Stop comparing FSX of the past. 3rd parties have found fixes for everything you try and shoot down, each with their own way. Get off this 2006 FSX kick, today it is not the same. FACT. There is a lot of fixing of bugs to be done with FC3 and the DCS product list so lets not go to the bugs and bad code.

The bug list for Eagle Dynamics products is quite substantial and always has been. So far nothing has changed but I will say they are trying but that should have been done 7 years ago.

Last edited by scotsmen54; 12/07/12 03:20 PM.
#3694644 - 12/07/12 03:18 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: citizen guod]  
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BillEinstein Offline
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Quite different here in my contry, even within fsx players. Most of them enjoy in chating with ATCs while flying VA online. For WWII prop fans, dogfight and duel are mostly welcomed. You may play with AI in a SP combat sim. But there is no AI in A2A's addon.

#3694656 - 12/07/12 03:33 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: BillEinstein]  
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HitmanLOF Offline
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Originally Posted By: BillEinstein
Quite different here in my contry, even within fsx players. Most of them enjoy in chating with ATCs while flying VA online. For WWII prop fans, dogfight and duel are mostly welcomed. You may play with AI in a SP combat sim. But there is no AI in A2A's addon.
Why would there have to be AI for A2A's Mustang? You are there just to fly the aircraft, arent you? This is like comparing FSX to Il2 Sturmovik Birds of Prey.Birds of Prey has P-51's, AI, and air combat, does that make Il2 Sturmovik Birds of Prey more realistic than FSX? At best this is a convoluted argument.

Last edited by HitmanLOF; 12/07/12 03:34 PM.
#3694663 - 12/07/12 03:41 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: BillEinstein]  
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Originally Posted By: BillEinstein
Quite different here in my contry, even within fsx players. Most of them enjoy in chating with ATCs while flying VA online. For WWII prop fans, dogfight and duel are mostly welcomed. You may play with AI in a SP combat sim. But there is no AI in A2A's addon.


You can add AI's but you need a program but you can add what you want objects etc.. Some will say yes more money. Well I have spent lots on Eagle Dynamics so why not FSX. I get more for my money too. Yes, DCS has Combat, well I am starting to release my breath for FSX/P3D as I think we are going to see this as well as the Civil part.

Check out the Milviz AI package for their F-15E, I got a WSO and missions over Iraq and Iran and Afganistan. So it will come. Obviously this is not like DCS but just wait.

#3694668 - 12/07/12 03:44 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: Kwiatek]  
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Originally Posted By: Kwiatek
Originally Posted By: HitmanLOF
[quote=Chaos]


Quote:
In all other cases, DCS is your better bet. It definately has the better flightmodel. No, I haven't flown a P51 but I am qualified enough to make an accurate assesment as to what is possible regarding the laws of physics and that is all there is to it.
Are you really? Are you a physicist? So you arent a P-51 mustang pilot but you just "know" that the DCS model is better? This sounds more like a cop-out than the cop out you claim I made. Wonderful.

Quote:
Although A2A offers a wonderful flight model, it all falls apart on the edges. Thats not A2A fault... it's just a limitation of the underlying game engine. Is that a surprise... of course not! The engine is based on tech from decades past.


Thats where Accusim comes into play - think outside the box, so they say, and thats what they have done.



Chaos is right. Even if he is not real life pilot he feels right.

Truly i haven't flown P-51 but i got pilot license for both planes and gliders (aerobatic planes also) and i could feel if flight model in sim is good or no. Definitly FSX engine is poor regarding flight phycis and any A2A plane can't change these. Im sure A2A make the best what they can in FSX engine but simply DCS is much better here ( stall,spin, flick manouvers but also landings phycics), the same ROF and Cliffs of Dover Su26. No metter what said armchair pilots here im sure what i said. A2A planes never be such good in flight model in FSX environment like proved to be P-51 in DCS World.
How is he right? You cant possibly know unless you are in the know. Do I take the words of a software developer who is trying to sell me a product, or do I take the words of those who have flown the real thing AND both products and have made his evaulations known? You can forgive me for not taking your word as the holy grail when you claim he is right or wrong because you dont know either. Unless you hold a valid pilots license, have flown a P-51D, are intimately familiar with its airframe and powerplant, and its handling characteristics like I know my vehicle, then you have credentials for me to believe you. And until you have those credentials, your opinion doenst matter to me. I intend to stick with the expert opinion that A2As mustang is the industry standard. This isnt your daddies Cessna.

Last edited by HitmanLOF; 12/07/12 03:46 PM.
#3694675 - 12/07/12 03:48 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: citizen guod]  
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Just to clear something up that just came to mind. The Virtual Horsmen will be flying the DCS-P-51D in this years VFAT but why wouldn't they. They used the Il2 Sturmovik P-51's so that is why they are not using A2A model. Makes sense. Looking forward to VFAT, always a good weekend. Hope everyone takes a look. Some really nice flying.

#3694686 - 12/07/12 04:06 PM Re: Review: DCS: P-51D Mustang [Re: HitmanLOF]  
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BillEinstein Offline
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Originally Posted By: HitmanLOF
Originally Posted By: BillEinstein
Quite different here in my contry, even within fsx players. Most of them enjoy in chating with ATCs while flying VA online. For WWII prop fans, dogfight and duel are mostly welcomed. You may play with AI in a SP combat sim. But there is no AI in A2A's addon.
Why would there have to be AI for A2A's Mustang? You are there just to fly the aircraft, arent you? This is like comparing FSX to Il2 Sturmovik Birds of Prey.Birds of Prey has P-51's, AI, and air combat, does that make Il2 Sturmovik Birds of Prey more realistic than FSX? At best this is a convoluted argument.

They don't have to, because they cant due to the limit. But this is one part of this review to DCS p51d. In other words, DCS has to have a good AI as well as other parts, fm, DM, weapons, etc.

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