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#3689128 - 11/27/12 11:25 AM RAZBAM; Mig-29  
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from ED forum and RAZBAM Facebook:

Quote:
Well.....what do you think?....FSX, DCS..not sure yet...



http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1615484#post1615484
Quote:
Hello gents:
We have been working on this one for quite a while now..
FSX and DCS versions will be produced

Best regards

Prowler



More News to the Front
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3689134 - 11/27/12 11:41 AM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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That's some nice news! Can someone with better MiG-skills than me identify the variant? The drawings seems to indicate MiG-29SMT, but to me the spine looks too small...

#3689140 - 11/27/12 12:00 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Great news! Now I just need some 3rd-party devs to start on a new map or two...


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Capt. Todd Sheehy, Hog pilot, on receiving orders during Operation Desert Storm

#3689175 - 11/27/12 01:41 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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Excellent news, we really need good quality Russian fast movers.....and as much as I love many US planes I can well understand the discontent among some and dark mutterings of "US-Western-Centric" bias. Not that I agree entirely with that conspiracy theory and some of its more hysterical proponents, I honestly think its more likely that these decisions are driven by market forces and their perception from a business standpoint of what will sell and won't. Understandable, from their point of view.

However, am I the only one slightly concerned about the *boom boom boom* barrage of mooted releases from some companies? I suppose I'm thinking about 'standards'. The whole area of standards and 'definition' of such seems to be pretty nebulous and I'll admit to being confused lol. I do recall a thread (ED Forums?) where some quite vague explanation was given by one of the devs; along the lines of some aircraft being given an "Official DCS brand stamp of approval", and others not. A kind of "two tier system"? If someone can find a link to the post or even provide some clarification I would be very grateful....I don't live on forums and I may well have missed more important news. I probably have, tbh. Thanks if you can shed any further light. thumbsup

Are there any real, substantial details about criteria that need to be satisfied to get the "DCS" stamp? Disclaimer: I don't know much about RAZBAM other than they are well established in FSX (which I don't play) but the cynic in me finds it hard to believe that all can be of a high standard of fidelity if many are being developed in parallel (not to say they are, just don't know). More info from the developers on order of priority, and perhaps some 'rough' kind of timeframe would probably be helpful and put some doubts to bed. I saw a massive list of aircraft in one post that RAZBAM intend to do (really looking forward to their AV8B+ Harrier II and GR9), and if they can do it well, then great. For my part, I'd rather have less and slower volume of releases at a better standard, quality trumps quantity for me every time.

It seems likely we may get Beczl's Mig-21Bis earliest which I'm hoping will be good. I get the feeling that its a kind of "labour of love" for sure (as I think the DCS A10-C was), and that passion for something usually shines through....in any Profession or walk of life. Equally however, "oh we'll just flog this" unenthusiastic afterthoughts and people just going through the motions can be painfully obvious as well. It generally results in crap. Have to say I'm not getting the "yay we are really excited about this" Passion type vibe on this occasion. I'm just hoping that DCS World is not saturated with a high volume of half baked crap lol. smile Always a danger and temptation when a financial motive is present to lower the bar a bit in order to make a quick buck. Think dodgy car manufacturers. If all people think of is filthy lucre (necessary of course, but still filthy) then there aint no love anymore, and all dat loving feeling be gone. hahaha Happens all the time. biggrin

It would be madness for ED-DCS to allow that to happen. Their brand is all about quality and fidelity and to let that slip would be extremely bad business in the end. I know they are smarter than that though and know this themselves, so probably much ado about nothing. smile

Not saying that this will come to pass, just being a world weary cynical bugger again. Don't worry. It might never happen. wink biggrin


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#3689177 - 11/27/12 01:45 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Ibex]  
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Originally Posted By: Ibex
That's some nice news! Can someone with better MiG-skills than me identify the variant? The drawings seems to indicate MiG-29SMT, but to me the spine looks too small...


From the other drawings of the wing, it looks like they're tossing around a MiG-29K as well?


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#3689181 - 11/27/12 02:00 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: NavyNuke99]  
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Originally Posted By: NavyNuke99
Originally Posted By: Ibex
That's some nice news! Can someone with better MiG-skills than me identify the variant? The drawings seems to indicate MiG-29SMT, but to me the spine looks too small...


From the other drawings of the wing, it looks like they're tossing around a MiG-29K as well?


Looks like the SMT (CMT same?) upgrade from the drawing, and they might be doing a K as well? Have to wait for official announcement I suppose. Not an expert on the Russian birds, but I'm sure the SMT has a much better avionics suite, 2 MFDS and upgraded radar etc. Cat will probably know. smile

Interesting. smile

Last edited by Biggles07; 11/27/12 02:01 PM.

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#3689198 - 11/27/12 02:34 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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If you want a DCS level fidelity aircraft, and unless RAZBAM knows something I don't, which is possible but not likely, the only aircraft you can model with that goal is the 29A/B.

Biggles was right to say that there's no conspiracy. The market thing isn't the only thing happening - Russia has really tightened its grip on available information regarding its aviation assets for example, and given that ED is Russian, even if these peeps found something to model, it is unlikely they want to go to jail.

From there on, things only get more complicated - yep, it actually gets worse, but no one is likely to offer explanations.

Regarding what ED will allow people to model - there are no restrictions, but there are definitely criteria to meet to get the DCS stamp. So yes, people could model X-Wings if they wanted, or low-fi planes. X-Wings aside, FC3 (or slightly better) level aircraft definitely do have a place.

PS: AFAIK, RAZBAM aims to have all their modules qualify for the DCS stamp.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 11/27/12 02:35 PM.

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#3689213 - 11/27/12 03:14 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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AFAIK, and by experience so far,

without a license, it seems like you'd have to code everything yourself without docs.

with a license, ED will supply some help.

Nothing is off limits, and looking at Files that change every patch,
ED is adding stuff piece by piece to help 3rd party developers with integrating the basics for the systems they need.

One thing people are overlooking is the expandability/flexability of the module setup,

Each system has it's own folder, it's own LUA Init. file and own DLLs, so the extent of the systems is only limited by Reference Material/Documents and a persons Coding Ability.


Last edited by SkateZilla; 11/27/12 03:16 PM.

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#3689214 - 11/27/12 03:16 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
If you want a DCS level fidelity aircraft, and unless RAZBAM knows something I don't, which is possible but not likely, the only aircraft you can model with that goal is the 29A/B.

Biggles was right to say that there's no conspiracy. The market thing isn't the only thing happening - Russia has really tightened its grip on available information regarding its aviation assets for example, and given that ED is Russian, even if these peeps found something to model, it is unlikely they want to go to jail.

From there on, things only get more complicated - yep, it actually gets worse, but no one is likely to offer explanations.

Regarding what ED will allow people to model - there are no restrictions, but there are definitely criteria to meet to get the DCS stamp. So yes, people could model X-Wings if they wanted, or low-fi planes. X-Wings aside, FC3 (or slightly better) level aircraft definitely do have a place.

PS: AFAIK, RAZBAM aims to have all their modules qualify for the DCS stamp.


Quote:
If you want a DCS level fidelity aircraft, and unless RAZBAM knows something I don't, which is possible but not likely, the only aircraft you can model with that goal is the 29A/B.


Of course Ghost, agreed. Should be a lot easier getting info due to the GDR connection too. I suppose it matters not really though since Typhoons and Raptors etc are being made, obviously going into extreme guesstimate territory. End of the day its a computer game, as much as I love simulation aspects and prefer the 'go with what we know and can verify' approach, I think even the A10-C might be capable of a few more things than we know at present through the DCS sim. So it goes. smile I'd love to see ED make a Mig29A/B for the next project after the US fixed wing, or an earlier Flanker. That would be great.

Yeah I can imagine it being a nightmare getting the gen on Military info in Putins Russia. But..... please, Comrade Yetevsky....I'm....just..... making a computer game...*'Putt, Putt' muffled silencer shots....Silence* smile Doesn't bear thinking about, really.


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#3689224 - 11/27/12 03:33 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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coding the details and specifics of the raptor's systems will not be accurate, i dont care what anyone says, those systems are not public, and are classified.

what they could do, is work with pilots, who tell them what button does what, what pages are on the MFDs etc, and they can model the systems to resemble those functions and tweak parameters using F-22 pilots as test pilots.

How do you think they do it for FSX. (avionics/systems wise, as FSX's flight model is rubbish outside of FedEx/UPS 747s)


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#3689235 - 11/27/12 03:54 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Well what you say about the F-22 also holds for the Eurofighter. Don't disagree with you on those points. I don't think you would get any pilot talking about the systems IMHO. There is info available on the WEB and I think that would be the place to get information but it still would only tell you what it resembles so to speak. Good enough for most simulation but would not pass ED's requirements for a DCS aircraft.

Well FSX is doing better of late. Some of the new aircraft coming on are great. Yes the old stuff was a little lame but things are vastly improving for FSX for what ever reason. P3D, photo Scenery etc. and yes it carries price tags.

#3689242 - 11/27/12 04:11 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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There is Wind Tunnel data for the YF-22 and EF-2000, just have to know where to get them.

i wasnt saying pilots will describe systems in detail, just a general map of things, and program from there.

if they were able to get a hold of a pilots manual, then that changes most of the guess work. but that's not gonna happen.

The SuperHornet is still mostly classified outside of Windtunnel Data and some systems.

The A-10C itself has classified systems in it.


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#3689243 - 11/27/12 04:15 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Biggles07]  
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Originally Posted By: Biggles07
Of course Ghost, agreed. Should be a lot easier getting info due to the GDR connection too. I suppose it matters not really though since Typhoons and Raptors etc are being made, obviously going into extreme guesstimate territory.


The guys who are making the Tiffy add-on actually have sufficient information to earn a DCS label smile
On the other hand, no such info exists for an F-22, so the F-22 is all guesswork.

Quote:
I think even the A10-C might be capable of a few more things than we know at present through the DCS sim. So it goes. smile


That's right. Even if we were to go back in time to the actual software version of the A-10C modeled in DCS, there is a lot of stuff missing. To give you a hint, I don't think you've ever seen a flight sim with an accurately modeled modern RWR ... never mind the inter-operation of that with the radar etc ... smile

Quote:
I'd love to see ED make a Mig29A/B for the next project after the US fixed wing, or an earlier Flanker. That would be great.


It will come at some point. smile

Quote:
Yeah I can imagine it being a nightmare getting the gen on Military info in Putins Russia. But..... please, Comrade Yetevsky....I'm....just..... making a computer game...*'Putt, Putt' muffled silencer shots....Silence* smile Doesn't bear thinking about, really.


Yep, pretty much. FOr the moment, may as well stick to MiG-29A/B and their known upgrades, and the Su-27S/K.


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#3689244 - 11/27/12 04:17 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
There is Wind Tunnel data for the YF-22 and EF-2000, just have to know where to get them.


That data isn't terribly helpful. It's performance charts that you want, since that will eliminate guesswork when modeling aircraft performance.


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#3689254 - 11/27/12 04:33 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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for the EAFMs, our team uses Wind Tunnel data and controller logic. with the performance charts.

Performance Charts give you a Performance Chart, but it doesnt give your Aerodynamic Data that you need to input into the API to model Aerodynamic Characteristics of the Airframe.

Without that data, the plane will not fly, stall, or fall realistically.

Without the Controller Logic (thrust, pitch, roll, yaw, dampening etc), the plane will not react to control inputs realistically.


Realistically we prolly dont need Perf Charts to make an EAFM.

Performance charts are there for a Benchmark Comparison of the Flight model with Aero Data. which if you're using Wind Tunnel Docs for the Aero, teh Data should be correct and when you run a test, the Performance of the FM should match the charts.


Using only Charts, all you can do is extract a few numbers to make an SFM, which uses the same STALL and General Performance Data for All Aircraft.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 11/27/12 04:41 PM.

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#3689258 - 11/27/12 04:41 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Biggles07]  
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Originally Posted By: Biggles07


Looks like the SMT (CMT same?) upgrade from the drawing, and they might be doing a K as well? Have to wait for official announcement I suppose. Not an expert on the Russian birds, but I'm sure the SMT has a much better avionics suite, 2 MFDS and upgraded radar etc. Cat will probably know. smile

Interesting. smile


The drawing is written in cyrillic alphabet, were what we see as the letter 'C' actually is an 'S', think 'CCCP' and 'SSSR' smile

#3689259 - 11/27/12 04:43 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Yes, and that's great for making the aircraft work with controls and edge conditions realistically, I agree. Without the performance data however you won't be able to check if your simulation performs correctly.


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#3689262 - 11/27/12 04:46 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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like i said, we use them for benchmark/comparison.

I can make a SFM match the charts for flight, but the plane will stall like the FC3 F-15C/SU27/SU34/MIG29., and all other SFM planes in DCSW, which is unrealistic,

I dont code EAFMs for the team, I can do SFMs that we use on AC while the EAFM is being coded.

Which is basic data and basic engine data. but as I've said, the plane will stall and fall just like other planes in DCSW that use SFM.

when the VRC F-16 AFM Flight Model Demo is public, fly that and then turn around and FLY the F-16 with the DCSW SFM. (might wanna have a barf bag ready), as the difference is that much.


(edit, By Team, I mean team VRC (Virtual Reality Combat), not RazBam). Just to keep people from getting the wrong Idea.)

Last edited by SkateZilla; 11/27/12 04:49 PM.

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#3689264 - 11/27/12 04:49 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Ibex]  
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Originally Posted By: Ibex
Originally Posted By: Biggles07


Looks like the SMT (CMT same?) upgrade from the drawing, and they might be doing a K as well? Have to wait for official announcement I suppose. Not an expert on the Russian birds, but I'm sure the SMT has a much better avionics suite, 2 MFDS and upgraded radar etc. Cat will probably know. smile

Interesting. smile


The drawing is written in cyrillic alphabet, were what we see as the letter 'C' actually is an 'S', think 'CCCP' and 'SSSR' smile


Hehe, aye thats what I thought when I wrote 'same'. Crazy Easterners with their funny words. biggrin Took me a while to figure out the S and C models were one and the same lol. hahaha


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#3689265 - 11/27/12 04:51 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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and I wouldnt mind a MIG-29 with an EAFM.... as the FC3 SFM MIGs blow Chunks in High AoA Stall situations.


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