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#3689294 - 11/27/12 05:40 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Originally Posted By: Prowler111
Gents:
I have to announce there will NOT be a DCS version for this bird.
Sorry for creating some anticipation around it.Well have to stick this bird to FSX only.
Best regards
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#3689298 - 11/27/12 05:47 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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I don't get the announcement then.

And tbh, I think the market for a DCS Mig-29 might be bigger than for an FSX one.

Last edited by Remon; 11/27/12 06:21 PM.
#3689338 - 11/27/12 07:13 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Can be ED others plans?


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#3689341 - 11/27/12 07:15 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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prolly dont want a MIG-29 Module competing with their FC3 Module.


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#3689378 - 11/27/12 08:38 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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#3689558 - 11/28/12 04:31 AM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Biggles07]  
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Originally Posted By: Biggles07
Not an expert on the Russian birds, but I'm sure the SMT has a much better avionics suite, 2 MFDS and upgraded radar etc. Cat will probably know. smile


(blush)!

Gosh, Biggles...thanks for the props!

Yes, the izh. 9-17, also known as the "SMT," is a MiG-29 izh. 9-13 upgrade program. MAPO-MiG came out with it about the same time they unveiled the MiG-21-97 improvement program for late MiG-21s, and the idea was to bring early 9-13 MiG-29s to a level broadly comparable with the MiG-29M (9-15). The 9-17 variants have an upgraded Zhuk pulse-Doppler radar with multitarget engagement capability, HOTAS integration, two color MFDs, and two smaller monochrome displays, if I remember correctly. There are not a lot of them, I think the VVS and Indian Air Force are the main customers for it.


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#3689566 - 11/28/12 05:01 AM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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those systems prolly arent public knowledge and heavily classified, which would make trying to A DCS High LoD Version pointless.


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#3691125 - 12/01/12 02:39 AM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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If we were going to get a real, no-joke DCS MiG-29, I'd like to see the 9-13, with all modes of the N-019 radar present and accounted for and air-to-ground modes up and running. The 9-13 MiG was my favorite in Lock On Modern Air Combat for its internal jammer and air-to-mud capability.

If I were sim-goddess-for-a-day I'd ask for DCS:Su-27S "Flanker B", modeling the ca. 1987 vesion of the VVS's Su-27 with all modes of the original NIIR version of the N-001 and its integrated RLPK-27 targeting system on deck, and the a2g systems present and accounted for. The current FC3 versions have most of the radar modes available but for the real aircraft's two-target engagement capability. In actuality, there's probably not a large market for this, so we're probably never going to see a Russian jet modeled to this extent, other than the MiG-21bis and possibly the later versions of the MiG-23, assuming Beczl goes that way. The MiG-21 and 23 will enjoy a wiiide following because they were flown by so many countries. ED won't want to compromise the FC3 aircraft to DCS-ify them, there is no profit in it, and that's understandable.

Thus, I give thanks for Beczl's MiG-21bis. It's the only DCS project I have a real desire to get in and fly at this point; the MiG-21 has long been at the top of my short list of personal favorite jets. The Mirage Factory's MiG-21-F13 (almost always dressed out in Indian Air Force "First Supersonics" colors), a third-party MiG-21PFM and MF, and Mirage Factory's Mirage IIICJ were the jets I really flew most in the Strike Fighters Project 1 series. I'm following the Spanish Mirage F-1 developers, and RAZBAM's A-7 with some interest, though.


Miao, Cat
#3691184 - 12/01/12 07:56 AM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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IIRC Beczl has stated that the MiG-23 is next in line, can't remember any mentioning of which version though.

The MiG-23MS would be an obvious candidate, considering most of the work in the radar/armament area is already done, but otoh, it might be too close to the MiG-21bis to sell. The MLD or M might be better choices from a marketing view.

Last edited by Ibex; 12/01/12 07:58 AM.
#3691248 - 12/01/12 01:54 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Cat]  
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Originally Posted By: Cat
If we were going to get a real, no-joke DCS MiG-29, I'd like to see the 9-13, with all modes of the N-019 radar present and accounted for and air-to-ground modes up and running. The 9-13 MiG was my favorite in Lock On Modern Air Combat for its internal jammer and air-to-mud capability.


That probably can't happen, not on an A-10C quality level.

Quote:
If I were sim-goddess-for-a-day I'd ask for DCS:Su-27S "Flanker B", modeling the ca. 1987 vesion of the VVS's Su-27 with all modes of the original NIIR version of the N-001 and its integrated RLPK-27 targeting system on deck, and the a2g systems present and accounted for.


... but this can.

Quote:
The current FC3 versions have most of the radar modes available but for the real aircraft's two-target engagement capability.


Such a capability does not exist as far as the operator's manual is concerned. It could be a secret mode, but you wouldn't want to use it ... it has been discussed with certain individuals and the conclusion is that its Pk would be pretty shabby assuming such a mode exists at all. There was a similar sounding mode for the F-15, but it turned out not to be what people thought, either.


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#3691325 - 12/01/12 06:07 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost


Quote:
The current FC3 versions have most of the radar modes available but for the real aircraft's two-target engagement capability.


Such a capability does not exist as far as the operator's manual is concerned. It could be a secret mode, but you wouldn't want to use it ... it has been discussed with certain individuals and the conclusion is that its Pk would be pretty shabby assuming such a mode exists at all. There was a similar sounding mode for the F-15, but it turned out not to be what people thought, either.


Have you read the pilot's manual for the Su-27P or S? Just interested to know. I have not. Though I have read an export version of that document for the MiG-21bis, thanks to the good offices of Beczl.

I found this from the 2004 Fisher Report to the U.S.China Economic and Security Review Commission interesting:

Quote:


Sukhoi Su-27SK FLANKER-B



Length: 21.935m Wingspan: 14.698m Wing Area: 62.04 sq.m

Engine: 2x Saturn AL-31F; 12,500kg max thrust Fuel: internal: 9,400kg

NTOW: 23,400kg MTOW: 33,000kg

Max Speed: M 2.35 Max Ceiling: 18,500m Range: S/L: 1,370km; altitude: 3,680km

Weapons: 10 hardpoints; 8,000kg max load; 6x R-73 AAM; 6x R-27 AAM; up to 38 100kg bombs; 4x rocket pods; 1x GSh-301 30mm cannon w/ 150 rounds; Upgrade version: 6x R-77 AAM; 4x Kh-31A/P; 4x Kh-29; 4x KAB-500; 1x KAB-1500

Radar: Tikhomirov NIIP N001; 80-100km range; track 10x and engage 2x targets

Systems: OLS-27 IRST, 80-100km range; Helmet Sight; SPO-15 RWR; IR/96x chaff/flare; Sorbitsya ECM; Spektr data link; Upgrade version: MFDs; new INS; new weapons computer to enable new AAMs, PGMs.


The Su-27SK is the export version of the Su-27S.

http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/2004/04fisher_report/7airforcesystems.htm

Interesting. They don't seem to have got the memo you did, GG. Now, these guys:

http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/index.php?showtopic=32423

appear to have. Fromn the January 2004 Microwave Journal:

Quote:

Some misunderstandings arise concerning the number of targets tracked by both types of radar [N001 and N019]. Some sources provide the number of ten targets tracked simultaneously. The number actually refers to the number of targets about which detection information is provided, which is not track-quality data as understood in the West. The Russian word "so-provozhdyeniye," with a rough English translation of "track," is misleading in this context. In this mode, the radar starts providing information about up to ten selected targets, but before engaging any of them, the pilot has to switch on the "perekhvat" mode, which in Russian means "intercept." In this mode, all the targets except one disappear, and the system prepares fire-control data for missile launch (no track-while-scan mode). Among the other radars (N019 and N001), there is a mode that provides automatic threat assessment and target prioritization. They are both also capable of close-combat work, with a quick vertical-scan mode. Both also work with the same R-27R (AA-10 Alamo) missile, while the Su-27's N001 radar's range enables use of the R-27R1 extended-range version. Both radar sets work in the X-band (about 3 cm wavelength).


and from the same article,

Quote:

In 1986, the N019M Topaz version of the N019 Rubin was developed. The main difference was the introduction of a more powerful digital processor that slightly improved the range (to 90 km) and provided more advanced ECCM capabilities. It was used on MiG-29 9.13 Fulcrum C aircraft. NIIR also developed the N019MP radar, which is an improved version of the N019M Topaz, with a more powerful "Bagiet" processor, for the MiG-29SM/SMT. The maximum range remains about the same, but the radar can detect 20 targets simultaneously, track four and engage two. The radar also has basic air-to-ground functions, such as terrain mapping; ground-target detection, tracking, and ranging; and Doppler beam sharpening. A N019M1 version was proposed for the MiG-29SD and MiG-29SE, which are only prototypes of RSK MiG modernization proposals. It is a pure air-to-air radar but is able to engage four targets simultaneously.


Very interesting.

Last edited by Cat; 12/01/12 06:44 PM. Reason: Yet more info

Miao, Cat
#3691341 - 12/01/12 06:42 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Cat]  
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Originally Posted By: Cat
Have you read the pilot's manual for the Su-27P or S? Just interested to know. I have not. Though I have read an export version of that document for the MiG-21bis, thanks to the good offices of Beczl.


Su-27SK (export version of 27S), in addition this has been discussed with ED devs who were able to ask people in the know.

Quote:


Sukhoi Su-27SK FLANKER-B



Length: 21.935m Wingspan: 14.698m Wing Area: 62.04 sq.m

Engine: 2x Saturn AL-31F; 12,500kg max thrust Fuel: internal: 9,400kg

NTOW: 23,400kg MTOW: 33,000kg

Max Speed: M 2.35 Max Ceiling: 18,500m Range: S/L: 1,370km; altitude: 3,680km

Weapons: 10 hardpoints; 8,000kg max load; 6x R-73 AAM; 6x R-27 AAM; up to 38 100kg bombs; 4x rocket pods; 1x GSh-301 30mm cannon w/ 150 rounds; Upgrade version: 6x R-77 AAM; 4x Kh-31A/P; 4x Kh-29; 4x KAB-500; 1x KAB-1500

Radar: Tikhomirov NIIP N001; 80-100km range; track 10x and engage 2x targets

Systems: OLS-27 IRST, 80-100km range; Helmet Sight; SPO-15 RWR; IR/96x chaff/flare; Sorbitsya ECM; Spektr data link; Upgrade version: MFDs; new INS; new weapons computer to enable new AAMs, PGMs.


Quote:

The Su-27SK is the export version of the Su-27S.

http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/2004/04fisher_report/7airforcesystems.htm

Interesting. They don't seem to have got the memo you did, GG.



Wouldn't be the first time we find inaccurate information on the net smile. Originally the Su-33's capabilitiesin FLANKER were based on a Jane's report that was misinterpreted/not corrected regarding a potential (and unfunded, as in never happened) upgrade path, just as an example. We see today also promotional material listing flankers with R-77's and other goodies listed as Su-27SK's, but they're not. They're Su-27SM(1-2-3)K's. In addition, at least as with regards to the S/P/SK, the jammers are usually carried by one of four aircraft in the flight (IIRC) with a special control panel installed in the specified aircraft, thus giving this one the role of EW support for the flight. The Sorbitsja is fairly powerful, but it isn't an SPJ in the sense that you'd think of it like the pod on an A-10, F-16, or the internal jammers of F-15's, F-18's and some MiG-29's. It's more of a cross between an SPJ and a dedicated support jammer. This makes it better than an SPJ probably under SOME circumstances, and likely worse in a whole bunch of others. Unfortunately without tactics books regarding the use of those, well... smile

There has been a lot of complaining and other theatrics because of these materials ... the facts are that ED acquired the operator's manuals for the Su-27SK, and upgrades to this model did not happen until quite late in the game. There have been others from the 27 family, like the 30M(KK/MKetc) and the 27SM1-2-3's, etc.

Either Ukraine or Belarus, I forget which, also had their own unique upgrade path for the S/SK in the 2000's. And of course, there's the Chinese.

Any flanker that has R-77 capability or guided air to ground weapon capability is not the base Su-27S(K). It is an upgrade that was done in the 2000's, and there is no documentation available that can enable anyone to model these to DCS depth.

Apologies for getting wordy, I just think it is worthwhile to clear up potential misunderstandings regarding this technology.

And I think in the end there you are referring to SNP mode smile It is modeled reasonably in FC. Of course with a DCS flanker you would definitely get extra goodies, as per the Su-27SK operator's manual. There are definitely a lot of things missing, as there are from the F-15C and MiG-29.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 12/01/12 06:48 PM.

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#3691343 - 12/01/12 06:45 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Oh, and there's this, also from Microwave Journal:

Quote:
In 1986, the N019M Topaz version of the N019 Rubin was developed. The main difference was the introduction of a more powerful digital processor that slightly improved the range (to 90 km) and provided more advanced ECCM capabilities. It was used on MiG-29 9.13 Fulcrum C aircraft. NIIR also developed the N019MP radar, which is an improved version of the N019M Topaz, with a more powerful "Bagiet" processor, for the MiG-29SM/SMT. The maximum range remains about the same, but the radar can detect 20 targets simultaneously, track four and engage two. The radar also has basic air-to-ground functions, such as terrain mapping; ground-target detection, tracking, and ranging; and Doppler beam sharpening. A N019M1 version was proposed for the MiG-29SD and MiG-29SE, which are only prototypes of RSK MiG modernization proposals. It is a pure air-to-air radar but is able to engage four targets simultaneously.


Added above.

Last edited by Cat; 12/01/12 06:45 PM.

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#3691350 - 12/01/12 07:05 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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^^^^

Yes, nor surprising and generally well known, but it only ever equipped a handful of MiG-29's (I believe there have been upgrades based on this radar since, I could be wrong).

What I was saying though is that unfortunately it appears impossible right now to get the operator's manuals for this equipment, so this version of the MiG-29 can't be modeled very well frown

I'll easily admit my preference for western birds (especially F-15C's, and you might catch me in a well-modeled F-22 if there ever is one ... or well, you might catch a missile out of nowhere rather biggrin ) but I also support development of eastern birds because I really enjoy DACT, and I think my virtual opponents should also have the opportunity to enjoy their chosen ride as well.

Sadly, Russia isn't cooperating.


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#3713963 - 01/08/13 02:26 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Such a capability does not exist as far as the operator's manual is concerned. It could be a secret mode, but you wouldn't want to use it ... it has been discussed with certain individuals and the conclusion is that its Pk would be pretty shabby assuming such a mode exists at all.


The statement is a bit weird concerning that the ED is adding it to the FC3.. Obviously, the operator manual for the MiG-29 9.13 wouldn't have it as it doesn't have the N019M radar.. IIRC, supposedly only about 45 of those 9.13S were built, with around 20 remaining in the ex-Soviet service (or two squadrons?) and the rest exported as MiG-29SE, so if it's available anywhere, that data should be in the operating manuals supplied with those models, no?

Last edited by ijozic; 01/08/13 02:34 PM.

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#3714007 - 01/08/13 04:09 PM Re: RAZBAM; Mig-29 [Re: ijozic]  
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Originally Posted By: ijozic
The statement is a bit weird concerning that the ED is adding it to the FC3..


Not when we're talking about the Su-27S/P. Some had speculated that it could guide two R-27's to two separate targets. There was writing on the F-15 radar ... documents that could have led you to the same conclusion with AIM-7, but this was never true, AFAIK. What they usually really mean is that you can launch two missiles at the same target and each has a separate data-link channel.

Quote:
Obviously, the operator manual for the MiG-29 9.13 wouldn't have it as it doesn't have the N019M radar.. IIRC, supposedly only about 45 of those 9.13S were built, with around 20 remaining in the ex-Soviet service (or two squadrons?) and the rest exported as MiG-29SE, so if it's available anywhere, that data should be in the operating manuals supplied with those models, no?


The MiG-29SE is quite a bit spiffier than the 9.13S, IIRC.


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