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#3744837 - 03/04/13 08:15 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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n4p0l3onic Offline
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hi all, I have some questions

- that above pic about an F-16 refueling, that's what called boomer method right?
- which one is easier between that boomer method and the navy planes method (hose and drogue?)? I mean in reality.
- I'd assume that the navy method should be more easier since you can see while you cannot see with the boomer method....? am I correct?
- why the 2 separate methods exist?

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#3744875 - 03/04/13 12:59 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: n4p0l3onic]  
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sorcer3r Offline
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Originally Posted By: n4p0l3onic
hi all, I have some questions

- that above pic about an F-16 refueling, that's what called boomer method right?
- which one is easier between that boomer method and the navy planes method (hose and drogue?)? I mean in reality.
- I'd assume that the navy method should be more easier since you can see while you cannot see with the boomer method....


Copy, F-16 needs a boomer for refueling.

I don't know which method is easier. I only refueld with A-10 and F-16 (in simulations wink )

If you can fly close formations (which IMO are still more difficult than aerial refueling) and know how to handle your plane with small control inputs then its not hard to refuel with the boomer method.

I guess its not a big difference between both ways when you are able to handle your plane.



Last edited by sorcer3r; 03/04/13 01:01 PM.
#3744996 - 03/04/13 05:00 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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- Ice Offline
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I don't think one is necessarily easier than the other. With the drogue, you put the refuelling probe in the basket, you do all the work. With the boom, you fly to a specific point under the tanker and the boomer puts the refuelling probe into the receptacle.

One difference is that the boom can pump more gas vs the drogue, IIRC, so getting topped up is quicker.


- Ice
#3745144 - 03/04/13 09:35 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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tomcat Offline
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Great thread! In see refuelling over my house semi regularly, but its higher and faster but that's likely due to the fact that 9/10 times its a C-17 or at best a C-135 variant. Usually 20 to 25 thousand and 250 knots

#3745365 - 03/05/13 09:34 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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MikiBzh Offline
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France
Hi all.

I've done refuelling in real life, probe and drogue only.

I think, in sim, AAR is more difficult. But it depends on sim. For example, i find it difficult in BMS. In DCS I really appreciate the final phase, the last few meters, where you can really feel to go ahead or not to catch the probe.

The main point, even in real life is to stick to a method and never, never deviate from it, even when you are fully confident or have timing issues.

- you have to stick to 3 references :
+ your alignement with the tanker axis, that should be as well the boom axis. For a probe and drogue, the two should be different...
+ your relative speed (may be the most difficult point to catch in a sim)
+ your staging (the one easy to go in a yoyo...)

- first, rejoin on echelon left with the tanker. Do not arrive strait behind the tanker. From echelon position it will be more easy to see the relative speed. From echelon position do you cockpit check and watch your HUD speed and RMP you have (speed in HUD is not really use in real life, but it help a lot in a sim). Try to find a good throttle position, and work from it as a reference (not watching all the time you RPM, but making correction from this throttle position.

- then move behind and down from the tanker, with smooth correction, to join the axis of the tanker (and the probe), with negative staging, aiming not to far behind the probe.

- make smooth correction to get 0 relative speed, get a corret axis ans a zero staging regarding the probe.

- then when 3 axis are good, we go to catch the probe. During this moving ahead phase :
+ do not watch the probe. Stick to the tanker has a reference, get the probe with periferal vision. Using this methode, will get you avoiding hard correction with elevator (zig zag up and down). If you do zigzag or yoyo, stop moving foward, stop your correction, get back to the 3 first reference then go again.
+ make correction to one reference by one at a time. If you try to correct the 3 references at the same time you will fail... axis, staging, speed then axis, staging speed then...
+ get a very few knots has relative speed. Do not wait to see a correction effect to stop it. For example, if you reduce RPM to reduce relative speed, do not wait to see your aircraft moving backward to get RPM up, it will be to late and you will do yoyo with speed.
+ last few meters (for DCS) decide if it's a go or no go. At this point only look for the probe and make the last corrections. (may be at one meter or less)

- after contact, do not focus on the probe (DCS) or the light (BMS). Look the tanker and try to stick to a global position. In DCS, tanker engine position in your canopy is a very good reference... Watch precisely for your the light (BMS) or boom color (DCS) then go back to your global reference, or try to catch the light or color of the boom using your periferal vision (not easy in a sim...)

- be cool ! if tanker is turning, even before contact, it is not a problem. Do not watch for horizontal reference. The reference is now the tanker wing axis and fuselage axis.

- after AAR, move backward slowly, then rejoin echelon right, make your cockpit check and leave the tanker.

Hope this help. Main points are not to watch too early the probe and to be smooth ! You have a boomer, let him help you !













MikiBzh
#3745982 - 03/06/13 03:11 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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Great stuff Miki! Any chance we can get a aerial refueling video or at least a track from you to learn from?


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#3747284 - 03/07/13 10:59 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: MikiBzh]  
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ST0RM Offline
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Nice screens. They look just like the video I've got from an A-10 friend who shot vid when I was refueling him.

I've gotten a ton of time in our KC-135 sim and have made contact as the receiver, as well as some time over in the C-17 sim. It wasnt easy, but after a few tries and correcting some PIO, I was making contact pretty easily.

Advice I can give is to try flying formation on the tanker for a while. Use small stick inputs to stay in position. Speed is fairly constant, so that is easy to match. Altitude as well, as we dont move much. After you've mastered that, move to pre-contact and hold that position. Dont focus on the boom nozzle, but on references on the tanker. If you can see the bulges on top of the wing above the gear, you are too high. Allow the black ruddevators to cradle the boom pod/window. That is 50 feet-ish. Start adding power to begin forward movement toward the boom. 3-5 feet per second is a good closure rate. Once the boom is in the receptacle, reduce power slightly to stay in the green area on the boom. Small inputs...

Miki, were you on Mirages? The FAF drivers over Afghanistan always told me "No boom assistance". I guess the FAF C-135FR booms would jiggle the stick and try to help. The F1 guys would request a toboggan also.

-Jeff

#3747455 - 03/08/13 08:13 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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MikiBzh Offline
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Hi Jeff,

Yes I was.

We used to call for a no boom assistance as for us with BDA we do "all" the job. From time to time we were suprised to see the boom moving in the last few feet when we where on this phase moving to catch it.

F1 and toboggan, yes... 2000 also, maybe one or two for me, with hot temp and high level.

I had great time on US tanker. Remember some night / bad weather / low fuel situation, those one you are happy to meet a tanker !


MikiBzh
#3752479 - 03/17/13 04:24 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Cmatt Offline
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Here's a short clip of probe/drogue from an F-18, if anyone is interested. Taken with a new Go Pro 3. Also some takeoff and landing as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjP3pnf8_tk

#3752578 - 03/17/13 07:52 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Tomcat84 Offline
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Happen to fly with/against any Dutch F-16s out of Yuma there?


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#3752675 - 03/18/13 12:18 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: Tomcat84]  
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Cmatt Offline
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As it happens, I flew an 8 + 4 v 10 personally, and we had them as red air for another mission as well. Any affiliation with them? Small world.

#3753016 - 03/18/13 06:06 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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Great vid, Cmatt!


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#3753103 - 03/18/13 09:16 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Arthonon Offline
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Great video Cmatt, thanks for posting! I live about two miles north of Miramar, so it was cool to see it from that perspective (if my analysis of the terrain was accurate).


Ken Cartwright

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#3753187 - 03/18/13 11:55 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Cmatt Offline
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First time down there, it sure is nice, even in the winter - great area and hospitality.

#3753928 - 03/20/13 02:53 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Pooch Offline
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Fascinating discussion, guys. Gosh, this is such an educational place. Thanks for the picture, Cali. Boy do I love the F-16.


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#3753992 - 03/20/13 09:23 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: Cmatt]  
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Originally Posted By: Cmatt
As it happens, I flew an 8 + 4 v 10 personally, and we had them as red air for another mission as well. Any affiliation with them? Small world.


Yep. Wasnt add Yuma myself though. I did Red Flag at Nellis in the two weeks prior (I'm not complaining! haha)


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#3831694 - 09/04/13 05:30 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Gigolety Offline
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Quote:
We're lucky that we have a 'boomer' tanker and not a 'hose and drogue' tanker, I'd imagine that ups the difficulty level a few notches having to formate and prod? Here..



It is true, it is not unusual for fighter aircrafts refueling using a basket to have taken it back home with them.

Last edited by Gigolety; 09/04/13 05:33 PM.
#3833453 - 09/07/13 08:00 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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ST0RM Offline
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In hundreds of refuelings, I've never had a fighter rip off either the drogue or MPRS basket. It is not as common as you are making it sound.

#3837860 - 09/16/13 10:01 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: ST0RM]  
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Probably because you were good in doing this! Others are not, of course S-O-M-E-T-I-M-E-S!

Italian Air Force Aerial Refueling Exercise Accident. Italian military troops in the refuel tanker film out



A Sea Stallion CH-53E Helicopter in a Mid Air Refueling Accident, which cuts the Fuel Probe with a KC-135 Stratotanker or a C-130. This short but revealing video clip shows how robust the rotor blades are of this Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion helicopter. The Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion is the biggest and heaviest helicopter in the United States military. It was developed from the CH-53 Sea Stallion, principally by adding a third engine, a seventh blade to the main rotor and canting the tail rotor by 20 degrees. It is operated by the USMC United States Marine Corps and currently there are about 152 CH-53E helicopters in service. Although not fully in shot the aerial fuel tanker looks like a KC-135 Stratotanker. The KC-135 was the US Air Force's first jet-powered refueling tanker and replaced the KC-97 Stratotanker. Although the Stratotanker was initially used to refuel strategic bombers, it was later used in the Vietnam War and later conflicts including Operation Desert Storm to extend the range and endurance of US fighters, bombers, and larger helicopters. It is due to be replaced by the Boeing KC-46 in 2018. Note: The air tanker may be a C-130 but we don't have a positive confirmation of this. Can any viewer help with a correct identification?





aAnd Finally Maverick with Goose. Probably he was absent, he was thinking about his blonde! :-)



Awacs sometimes got problems too




And Finally when B-52 crashed with a tanker full of nuclear wepaons they split nuclear material all aroun like in Palomares


The 1966 Palomares B-52 crash or Palomares incident occurred on 17 January 1966, when a B-52G bomber of the USAF Strategic Air Command collided with a KC-135 tanker during mid-air refuelling at 31,000 feet (9,450 m) over the Mediterranean Sea, off the coast of Spain. The KC-135 was completely destroyed when its fuel load ignited, killing all four crew members. The B-52G broke apart, killing three of the seven crew members aboard.[1]
Of the four Mk28 type hydrogen bombs the B-52G carried,[2] three were found on land near the small fishing village of Palomares in the municipality of Cuevas del Almanzora, Almería, Spain. The non-nuclear explosives in two of the weapons detonated upon impact with the ground, resulting in the contamination of a 2-square-kilometer (490 acres) (0.78 square mile) area by plutonium. The fourth, which fell into the Mediterranean Sea, was recovered intact after a 2½-month-long search.[3]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Palomares_B-52_crash

May be it is not so rare too! duel

Last edited by Gigolety; 09/16/13 10:21 PM.

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