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#3657865 - 10/06/12 08:28 PM Aerial refueling  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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I've got more than a few questions on aerial refueling, but I'll try to keep it to a couple at a time:

1) Is aerial refueling as incredibly difficult as it seems on DCS A-10C?

2) When a flight of 2 or more goes to refuel, how do they form up with the tanker? Echelon left/right with most empty aircraft on inside? Do the planes that complete fueling go back into the formation waiting to get gas or form up other the other wing of the tanker, etc.?

3) Can someone with aerial refueling experience walk us through a sample four-ship refueling? e.g., "Flight lead directs flight to refueling control point, calls tanker on radio...".


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#3658087 - 10/07/12 09:43 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Glad to see this up here- I think your system worked really well and whatever the answer is the system you have works perfectly and I will promote it. Simple... effective.

#3658138 - 10/07/12 01:54 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Originally Posted By: EinsteinEP


1) Is aerial refueling as incredibly difficult as it seems on DCS A-10C?


I haven't tried AAR using DCS, so my answer will just suggest that the fine level of aircraft control needed to do this may be beyond the ability of our sticks and throttles.

Is AAR difficult in the real world? Perhaps, but most fighter pilots seem to get the hang of it. I've tanked off of KC-97s, KC-135s, and KC-10s when I was flying F-4s and A-10s. Each tanker and fighter types has its own pluses and minuses...taking gas in the F-4 from a KC-97 was the most challenging because of the slow speed of the tanker. We had one engine in min burner and used the other engine to hold position. We joked that we probably were burning fuel as fast as we were taking it on board!

Other things that complicated matters included the weather, in VN we tanked in some really low viz situations...also, holding position on the boom is more difficult when the tanker turns.

Quote:
When a flight of 2 or more goes to refuel, how do they form up with the tanker? Echelon left/right with most empty aircraft on inside? Do the planes that complete fueling go back into the formation waiting to get gas or form up other the other wing of the tanker, etc.?


I usually kept folks in route when joining for max formation flexibility. The order of refueling was up to the flight lead...some had the element or wingies go first. I usually went first so that the others had max fuel when we came off the tanker. Sometimes, a flight member might 'top off' before the flight leaves.

Depending on refueling order, the lead would direct folks to return to the tanker's wing, usually the one that they originally formed up on...but it was up to the lead...so lead and 2 would be on one wing, 3 and 4 on the other, for example.

Quote:
Can someone with aerial refueling experience walk us through a sample four-ship refueling? e.g., "Flight lead directs flight to refueling control point, calls tanker on radio...".


One of my early Wolf articles takes a F-4 flight thru refueling...it might answer some of your questions.

As for the comms, these ranged from the basic calls used in training up to the limited comms used operationally. It wasn't unusual for experienced flight leads and boom operators to cycle a flight thru with minimal radio chatter. In training, the pilot would make required calls throughout the entire process...from initial tally to coordinating the direction of dropping off the tanker...go here, say this...then go there and say that, etc.

You probably have more questions, so let's hear them!

#3658152 - 10/07/12 02:18 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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On BMS, the flight forms up on the tanker's left wing, left echelon formation, lead gets fuel first (unless one guy is REALLY low on gas), followed by 2, then 3, then 4. The guys that have finished form up on the right wing of the tanker, right echelon. There's a "quick flow" procedure wherein when lead is getting fuel, 2 flys off lead's wing in a pre-contact position so when lead is finished, 2 can come straight in then 3 goes into formation on 2's wing, and so on.

When all guys are finished, the flight leaves the tanker track, goes to their assigned/desired altitude, and flight lead puts them back into whatever formation he thinks is necessary.

Usually only the lead needs to talk to tanker, everyone else shuts up. According to Dan Hampton (Viper Pilot author), there may be comms between pilot and boom operator during peace time but when in combat there was no chatter.

Anyway, this is how I am familiar with it... would be interesting to see how it compares to real life!

EDIT: Sniped by Andy, but keeping it for comments...


- Ice
#3658165 - 10/07/12 02:37 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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#3658169 - 10/07/12 02:49 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
On BMS, the flight forms up on the tanker's left wing, left echelon formation, lead gets fuel first (unless one guy is REALLY low on gas), followed by 2, then 3, then 4. The guys that have finished form up on the right wing of the tanker, right echelon. There's a "quick flow" procedure wherein when lead is getting fuel, 2 flys off lead's wing in a pre-contact position so when lead is finished, 2 can come straight in then 3 goes into formation on 2's wing, and so on.


One note about echelon...it's a more difficult formation to hold position if there are more than two members. #4 often feels like the flight is playing 'crack the whip' because he's at the end of everyone's position correction. When I flew as #4 in echelon, I tried to fly off #1 while maintaining my lateral separation from #3...this allowed me to 'null out' the movement of # 2 and #3.

I'm not a big fan of echelon...good for coming down initial for the break, but that's about it.

#3658270 - 10/07/12 07:12 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Is there any other formation done? I do get what you're saying about "crack the whip" though and I agree.


- Ice
#3658488 - 10/08/12 02:44 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
Is there any other formation done? I do get what you're saying about "crack the whip" though and I agree.


For a tanker join up?

I suppose so...fingertip, for example...but route worked best for me. Flexible, allowed the wingies to look around. As a wingie, I relished the chance to get a tally on the tanker before lead.

#3658597 - 10/08/12 09:59 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Thanks Andy!


- Ice
#3659059 - 10/08/12 10:54 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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We're lucky that we have a 'boomer' tanker and not a 'hose and drogue' tanker, I'd imagine that ups the difficulty level a few notches having to formate and prod? Here..

Last edited by HarryR; 10/08/12 11:00 PM.

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#3659285 - 10/09/12 09:14 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Originally Posted By: EinsteinEP

1) Is aerial refueling as incredibly difficult as it seems on DCS A-10C?

2) When a flight of 2 or more goes to refuel, how do they form up with the tanker? Echelon left/right with most empty aircraft on inside? Do the planes that complete fueling go back into the formation waiting to get gas or form up other the other wing of the tanker, etc.?


1) Dont know about DCS, dont have it. Is it difficult? Usually no, but it can be. If it's very turbulent, if theres weather (tanking in clouds, yay), if the tanker insists on flying manually (and not on autopilot), if the sun is right in your eyes, if the director lights on the old KC-135s are barely readable (if at all) or if you're just having a bad day haha. But in general, it's pretty easy once you get used to it. Dont know about probe and drogue, that looks like a #%&*$#.

2) We usually head towards the tanker in a fighting wing kind of formation, then once close number one can usually go straight to the boom (unless theres another flight there), the rest forms up on the left wing in a loose kind of echelon so as to ease the cracking the whip effect etc. Of course if theres gonna be clouds it'll become a tighter formation! When done go to the right wing, whoever went first is on the wing and the rest forms up on him. Usually lead goes first unless someone has a really low fuel state. I have not heard of this quick flow thing, but really, if flown well it only takes a small amount of time to switch to the next receiver anyway.


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#3659480 - 10/09/12 02:12 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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1) Probe and Drogue is not that hard once you get the tricks explained.
Mostly is about position to hold and don't get fixated on the drogue. Look at it only the last 2 feet before contact.
Then is just hold position.

I'm not a pilot but I can do it consistently with little hassle after some practice.
(Official Air Force Full Simulator)

Hard but not that hard.
Unless poor weather as stated.


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#3659696 - 10/09/12 06:28 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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HarryR Offline
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I just realized you're doing this in the Taifun sim (ok, ok, F.2000 sim). Perhaps we can do a 'networked' trip... wink


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#3659703 - 10/09/12 06:36 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Heh, I wish. Unfortunately...
Which base do you work at?

Last edited by komemiute; 10/09/12 06:37 PM.

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#3686318 - 11/21/12 09:45 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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Andy (or any A-10 or tanker pilot),

What airspeed(s) and altitude(s) is aerial refueling conducted at for the A-10? I read somewheres that the published speed is something like 210 KIAS, but the A-10s really prefer something a bit slower, like 195 KIAS, but I haven't read anything about altitudes.


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#3686415 - 11/22/12 12:46 AM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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250kts, if I remember right.

The faster, the better. The tanker's speed is driving this show...neither the KC-135 or the KC-10 are going to slow down to the 200kt area.

Medium altitudes worked best. Too low and everyone burned fuel too fast. Too high and the slower speeds resulted in poor flying characteristics.

What is medium? Ten to 15 thousand or so. Get the A-10 higher than that and it flys even more like a pig, particularly if it is still loaded.

#3714003 - 01/08/13 04:02 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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[quote=EinsteinEP]

1) Is aerial refueling as incredibly difficult as it seems on DCS A-10C? [\quote]


It's difficult at first when you don't know what to do..

I used to hop in flights on MP and get estimations of ground speed from people playing. The best thing to do, is download the mission, open it with editor, and check tanker altitude and speed (that is ground speed).


Next, practice shelling with no loadout, half loadout, and full loadout.

Finally, before actually considering refuelling, set joystick curves to 30. And trim nose down but keep nose zeroised by pulling just bit on stick. I'm using CH stick, so quality may vary. I've refuelled my first 9500 lbs from 2000 lbs with a clean plane just yesterday.

Here is my vid link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E22Mu6PNlBI

just kidding.. here is my first ever refuel success... 9500-2000 lbs = 7500 lbs taken over 24 minutes. I'd say that's progress:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54gx3ccy2b0

Note though how he's trimmed nose down and pulls up just to keep hose stuck? That was my emphasis.


the other 2 questions are answered in the manual.

Last edited by Kelsoe; 01/08/13 04:04 PM.
#3714009 - 01/08/13 04:13 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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220 KIAS. Any slower and the tanker falls out of the sky, any faster and A-10's may potentially have problems keeping up (but if they're able to do 250KIAS, like Andy said, do it that way). You don't need to be slow to refuel, it makes things very sluggish and puts you in a dangerous part of the flight envelope. The altitude block you want to use is 10000-20000', and taking the midpoint tends to work well (15000').

Originally Posted By: EinsteinEP
Andy (or any A-10 or tanker pilot),

What airspeed(s) and altitude(s) is aerial refueling conducted at for the A-10? I read somewheres that the published speed is something like 210 KIAS, but the A-10s really prefer something a bit slower, like 195 KIAS, but I haven't read anything about altitudes.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 01/08/13 04:14 PM.

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#3724016 - 01/24/13 04:02 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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I have seen F-16's (2008, 2009) refuel twice and A-10's (2001) refuel once, they all came in from the right wing. Got pictures and video of the 16's from 2009.








EDIT: Pictures didn't turn out right.

Last edited by Cali; 01/24/13 04:17 PM.

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#3725114 - 01/25/13 11:06 PM Re: Aerial refueling [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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Refueling A-10s is a fine balance for the tanker and the receiver. At certain weights, we will lower our flaps to allow us to fly slow enough to not outrun the Hawg. In theater, the A-10 is fully loaded and can barely manage 200kts. More likely 195kts, but no slower as our boom on the KC-135 stalls at 190kts. In order to prevent the A-10 from falling off the aft limit, we'll set up for the toboggan manuever, where we'll start a shallow decent to give a couple extra kts.

As far as where they start/end, Lead is allowed to come straight to the boom with #2 (and on) will form up on the left wing (called left wing observation). After the offload is completed, the aircraft cycle left to right to the right observation position to clear off.

-Storm

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