I have a question regarding the Vega. Are different aspects of a target aircraft relative to the square pair FC-Radar taken into the simulation of the pulse-doppler NCTR feature?
Several new questions, but for now I'll only ask one.
Do you factor the amount of time required for the rail loader/truck loader to move into loading position, and then move away from the launch area into your reload time? Or was this deemed insignificant to the operation of the Gammon and excluded?
I'm still toying with the idea of a graphic AAR, but I haven't sorted everything into enough of a coherent thought to make an example. However, I think you'll like my new idea as it doesn't involve 3D.
Do you factor the amount of time required for the rail loader/truck loader to move into loading position, and then move away from the launch area into your reload time? Or was this deemed insignificant to the operation of the Gammon and excluded?
It is faithfully represented. (Even time given to the K3 operator, to push the "prepare missile" switch. You can notice it, that the missiles aren't prepared in the same time.)
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Hello, first thing i want to thank you Hpasp for the execellnt work, the SAM-Simulator provides the right amount of sim and fun! The next thing, i want to ask, what was the reason programming the Volhov first and not the Dvina?
So a few words to the Vega System: Love that thing! Superb range and it has good chances of intercept a stealth target like the F-117A:
Quote:
48:33, Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-3] simulating F-117A Stealth launched
53:23, Missile launched from launcher-1 Target distance: 17km Target azimuth: 54° Target elevation: 54° Target angular speed: 228m/s (0,8 Mach) Target altitude: 14,1km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Acquire target before launch Received signal strenght: 37dB
53:31, Missile launched from launcher-2 Target distance: 16km Target azimuth: 51° Target elevation: 59° Target angular speed: 186m/s (0,6 Mach) Target altitude: 14,1km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Acquire target before launch Received signal strenght: 37,4dB
53:59, Missile exploded Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-3] simulating F-117A Stealth killed by SAM. (miss distance: 37m)
54:06, Missile exploded Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-3] simulating F-117A Stealth killed by SAM. (miss distance: 111m)
Hello, first thing i want to thank you Hpasp for the execellnt work, the SAM-Simulator provides the right amount of sim and fun! The next thing, i want to ask, what was the reason programming the Volhov first and not the Dvina?
I think that for him the manuals and sites of the Volhov were easier to find/look than the Dvina ones... Maybe because (afaik) Hungary operated the Volhov, but didn't the Dvina (or did it, for much less time).
The next thing, i want to ask, what was the reason programming the Volhov first and not the Dvina?
Just remember, that Dvina is the "export" version of the Volhov. Dvina was received by the arab countries, and Vietnam, while Volhov was used by the WarPact, and the Soviet Union. Dvina was not deployed in Hungary when I started programming, so the first high quality photos were made of the Volhov training complex in 2005.
Than I met the first (and the best tester), who was FCO on Volhov, then Battery commander at a Neva unit. In 2007 I was able to shot the required shots for NEVA, and the idea of a several system SAM Simulator begun.
In 2009, the first package were released (containing Volhov and Neva), and the English website were created.
In 2010, I had the possibility to take pictures of the KRUG system, allowed by the Hungarian 12. Arrabona SAM regiment. It was released in the same year.
Before the end of 2010, I had the opportunity to shot the required pictures for the VEGA, and the Shilka sim, at the same day... ... what a day it was!!!
2011, the Vega released, and I had the opportunity to shot finally the Dvina.
So to wrap up, the Dvina was the last system I could spend the required 2~3 hours in it.
Just to decode: SA-75MK Dvina, SA-2F S-75M3 Volhov, SA-2E S-125M Neva, SA-3B 2K11M1 KRUG-M1, SA-4B S-200VE Vega-E, SA-5B
Last edited by Hpasp; 02/11/1110:01 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Okay, now i understand why you started with the more complex Volhov.
Quote:
Here they are discussing how to shoot the B2... ... with the S-200D Dubna system (SA-5C)
At 10 km altitude up to 150 km against non-jamming B2? I found the table at the pages 18-19 useful, because it provides a good comparision between the different kinds of missles, that are being used.
And another two questions. Its about the searching methods. How can i opitmize the circular searching method of the Square Pair against a stealth target? And why drops the sector search the vertical elevation always to zero degrees when it starts to scan?
Edit: My best result against a stealth target so far:
Quote:
06:37, Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-3] simulating F-117A Stealth launched
11:07, Missile launched from launcher-1 Target distance: 20km Target azimuth: 64° Target elevation: 43° Target angular speed: 339m/s (1,2 Mach) Target altitude: 14km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Acquire target during flight Received signal strenght: 35,5dB
11:41, Missile exploded Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-3] simulating F-117A Stealth killed by SAM. (miss distance: 31m)
Total, SNR On Air Time: 5min 20sec
When the F-117A jams the cm wavelenght i always score a hit, when its jamming the Tall-King radar i have big troubles to find it at all, even if i preset the distance, the vertical elevation and the doppler speed of the Square Pair, for example 35 km, ~ 25 ° vertical elevation and doppler speed around 400 m/s and start a circle search i cant find it...
At 10 km attitude up to 150 km against non-jamming B2?
Please be aware, that in real life, the Stealth planes, NEVER JAM!
How can i opitmize the circular searching method of the Square Pair against a stealth target?
If the target is further than 100km, switch to narrow beam. If the target is closer than 100km, switch to wide beam.
And why drops the sector search the vertical elevation always to zero degrees when it starts to scan? That is the maximum range.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
I know that I'm being stubborn regarding the SA-5 but I do strongly believe that there's something wrong with the SA-5 and this time I think it may be something related to it's flight patch (and NOT due to the fuse like I previously thought). I have what I believe an evidence that something is inded wrong regarding the SA-5 missile flight path -> Following Lonewolf's sugestion I started to use the P-14 radar to "keep a look" at my launched missiles and when playing the "1985 - Op. Giant Reach" and firing against an incoming SR-71, I noticed this everytime I play this mission in this same situation: 1- I fired one missile at the incoming SR-71 using the "Adquire After Launch" mode. 2- The SR-71 turned on it's jammer which was expectable which will cause my previously lauched missile to loose it's target and miss which again was expectable, so NO problem here! 3- But the problem is when I fire the all other missiles using the "Home on Jam" mode -> ALL missile WILL FAIL because they simply DON'T FOLLOW the target and ALL MISSILES will follow the SAME EXACT northern "imaginary" route, like this picture clearly shows:
As you can see in picture ALL MISSILES launched in "Home on Jam" mode will follow the indicated flight path in the picture, completly ignoring the target's jammer direction at all! And with this I mean that this isn't one missile or two that for some random reason will loose it's target - I mean all missiles WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTIONS will follow THAT WIERD PATH!
I know that I'm being stubborn regarding the SA-5 but I do strongly believe that there's something wrong with the SA-5 and this time I think it may be something related to it's flight patch (and NOT due to the fuse like I previously thought). I have what I believe an evidence that something is inded wrong regarding the SA-5 missile flight path -> Following Lonewolf's sugestion I started to use the P-14 radar to "keep a look" at my launched missiles and when playing the "1985 - Op. Giant Reach" and firing against an incoming SR-71, I noticed this everytime I play this mission in this same situation: 1- I fired one missile at the incoming SR-71 using the "Adquire After Launch" mode. 2- The SR-71 turned on it's jammer which was expectable which will cause my previously lauched missile to loose it's target and miss which again was expectable, so NO problem here! 3- But the problem is when I fire the all other missiles using the "Home on Jam" mode -> ALL missile WILL FAIL because they simply DON'T FOLLOW the target and ALL MISSILES will follow the SAME EXACT northern "imaginary" route, like this picture clearly shows:
Vega is quite a complex (confusing) system, and Im happy that somebody is getting deep into it. Here are the things, that I used to forget, and screw up an engagement.
Before missile launch... "Z"-screen Do you have RPC GOTOV, D ZONA indicators green?
GSN settings: Vcr<0 - against targets less than radial speed of 100m/s (track in 3 coordinates) V POLETE - against low flying targets, when you have RPC, but no GSN lock (track in 3 coordinates) POISK V VIKL - against jamming target (track in 2 coordinates only) POISK VKL - against normal target (track in 3 coordinates)
When you track a target, and it starts jamming, the Plamya computer do target path prolongation. "C" screen, PROLONG red indication. You need to reacquire the target! Push the PROLONG VIKL red button, and do a proper jamming target tracking in AS2.
Than launch only.
There can be hidden bugs at the Vega, as it is the least tested system compared to the Volhov, but Im happy if we can find these out. (3DAAR will also help this)
Quote:
14:00 28th of March, 1985. SR-71 Operation Giant Reach.
S-200VE Vega-E
10:23, Missile launched from launcher-1 Target distance: 295km Target azimuth: 286° Target elevation: 2° Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Acquire target during flight Received signal strength: 6,7dB
10:59, Missile launched from launcher-2 Target distance: 270km Target azimuth: 286° Target elevation: 3° Target angular speed: 869m/s (3,1 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
11:21, Missile launched from launcher-3 Target distance: 255km Target azimuth: 286° Target elevation: 3° Target angular speed: 869m/s (3,1 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
27:42, Missile launched from launcher-1 Target distance: 196km Target azimuth: 285° Target elevation: 5° Target angular speed: 842m/s (3 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
28:00, Missile launched from launcher-2 Target distance: 187km Target azimuth: 284° Target elevation: 5° Target angular speed: 768m/s (2,7 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
28:19, Missile launched from launcher-3 Target distance: 177km Target azimuth: 282° Target elevation: 5° Target angular speed: 668m/s (2,3 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
28:23, Missile exploded SR-71 Habu hit by SAM. (miss distance: 189m)
28:37, Missile launched from launcher-4 Target distance: 169km Target azimuth: 279° Target elevation: 6° Target angular speed: 551m/s (1,9 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Vega is quite a complex (confusing) system, and Im happy that somebody is getting deep into it. Here are the things, that I used to forget, and screw up an engagement.
Before missile launch... "Z"-screen Do you have RPC GOTOV, D ZONA indicators green?
GSN settings: Vcr<0 - against targets less than radial speed of 100m/s (track in 3 coordinates) V POLETE - against low flying targets, when you have RPC, but no GSN lock (track in 3 coordinates) POISK V VIKL - against jamming target (track in 2 coordinates only) POISK VKL - against normal target (track in 3 coordinates)
When you track a target, and it starts jamming, the Plamya computer do target path prolongation. "C" screen, PROLONG red indication. You need to reacquire the target! Push the PROLONG VIKL red button, and do a proper jamming target tracking in AS2.
Than launch only.
There can be hidden bugs at the Vega, as it is the least tested system compared to the Volhov, but Im happy if we can find these out. (3DAAR will also help this)
Well, I was not firing with "D ZONE" light ON (I was NOT waiting for it to turn ON). I noticed that when I fired with the "D ZONE" light on that the missiles seem inded to fly towards the right direction (towards the target) but in my case I only get the "D ZONE" light on when the SR-71 passes its 3 minute mark (almost at the 4 minute mark) in the plotting table and when I read your AAR and after seeing your plotting table I've seen that you hit the SR-71 just a little bit after the 3 minute mark which means that it was your second and third missiles (the first one was not fired on "Home on Jam") that hit the SR-71 which in my case (playing with current version v923.3) launching missiles with "Home on Jam" at the same distance that you launched your second and third missiles is ONLY POSSIBLE with the "D ZONE" light OFF BUT if I launch the missiles with "Home on Jam" and with the "D ZONE" light OFF the missiles will NEVER follow the target (they will follow that fligth path that I marked in my previously posted picture).
So, I want to ask: I which version was that mission of yours played? With the "official" v923.3 or are you using a non-released ("beta") version of SAM simulator?
For what's worth I've been following all the procedures mentioned in the manual when engaging "Home on Jam" targets (and any other kind of target for that matter). Anyway, Here's one of my AARs:
Quote:
14:00 28th of March, 1985. SR-71 Operation Giant Reach.
S-200VE Vega-E
22:56, Missile launched from launcher-1 Target distance: 305km Target azimuth: 286° Target elevation: 2° Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Acquire target during flight Received signal strength: 5,5dB
25:20, Missile launched from launcher-2 Target distance: 195km Target azimuth: 285° Target elevation: 5° Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
25:35, Missile launched from launcher-3 Target distance: 185km Target azimuth: 284° Target elevation: 5° Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
25:51, Missile launched from launcher-4 Target distance: 177km Target azimuth: 282° Target elevation: 5° Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
26:07, Missile launched from launcher-5 Target distance: 170km Target azimuth: 279° Target elevation: 6° Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
26:23, Missile launched from launcher-6 Target distance: 164km Target azimuth: 276° Target elevation: 6° Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
26:39, Missile launched from launcher-1 Target distance: 161km Target azimuth: 273° Target elevation: 6° Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach) Target altitude: 20km RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam GSN mode: Home on Jam Received signal strength: 45dB
Total, SNR On Air Time: 6min 25sec
I also have an another question: I'm not sure what is the "PROLONG VIKL" button, but I'm assuming that it's this one:
Well, I was not firing with "D ZONE" light ON (I was NOT waiting for it to turn ON). I noticed that when I fired with the "D ZONE" light on that the missiles seem inded to fly towards the right direction (towards the target) but in my case I only get the "D ZONE" light on when the SR-71 passes its 3 minute mark (almost at the 4 minute mark) in the plotting table and when I read your AAR and after seeing your plotting table I've seen that you hit the SR-71 just a little bit after the 3 minute mark which means that it was your second and third missiles (the first one was not fired on "Home on Jam") that hit the SR-71 which in my case (playing with current version v923.3) launching missiles with "Home on Jam" at the same distance that you launched your second and third missiles is ONLY POSSIBLE with the "D ZONE" light OFF BUT if I launch the missiles with "Home on Jam" and with the "D ZONE" light OFF the missiles will NEVER follow the target (they will follow that fligth path that I marked in my previously posted picture).
What I did: 1, Got AS4 with the RPC, using IADS. 2, launched a missile out of zone to frighten the SR71. (this missile will not track, and considered lost) 3, SR71 starts jamming 4, PROLONG VIKL (yes that is it), POMEHA VKL, AS2 5, GSN POISK V VIKL 6, launch as many missiles as possible (WW3 anyway started)
So, I want to ask: I which version was that mission of yours played? With the "official" v923.3 or are you using a non-released ("beta") version of SAM simulator?
Always with the latest one .
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
What I did: 1, Got AS4 with the RPC, using IADS. 2, launched a missile out of zone to frighten the SR71. (this missile will not track, and considered lost) 3, SR71 starts jamming 4, PROLONG VIKL (yes that is it), POMEHA VKL, AS2 5, GSN POISK V VIKL 6, launch as many missiles as possible (WW3 anyway started)
So, I want to ask: I which version was that mission of yours played? With the "official" v923.3 or are you using a non-released ("beta") version of SAM simulator?
Always with the latest one .
That's exactly what I do! But what I find curious is that your impacts on the SR-71 (marked on the plotting table) basically happened in the similar spot/area when the SR-71 is when in my game my "D ZONA" indicator becomes green -> So basically when you hit the SR-71 is when I get the green light (D ZONA light) to launch missiles.
Lets discuss S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) specific issues here...
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
The GSN-target received signal strength code was completely rewritten, but it still doesn't feel right, so I will still need to work on it... ... this shot is unrealistic.
Last edited by Hpasp; 08/17/1208:21 AM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
The GSN-target received signal strength code was completely rewritten, but it still doesn't feel right, so I will still need to work on it... ... this shot is unrealistic.
There should be signal/noise ratio for GSN at 3:1 (about 10dB). Here some estimations about range of possible misslie launch, depending by type of the target (bomber;fighter-bomber;cruise missile), transmition mode of the RSN (MHI or FKM) in case of signal/noise ratio for GSN at about 3:1 (10 dB):
As I understand it right, the main problem for CW dopler radar (like S-200VE) is that when radial speed of the target is close to 0, GSN could lock on the main frequence transmited by the RSN (and in our case it is this "noise" signal, which we should avoid by having some +10 dB target signal strenght). Of course, as target speed is closing the 0 or below 0 m/s, the noise level increases, so, to keep our 3:1 signal/noise ratio, we should receive stronger target signal, to distinguished the target...
It was on the Asuluk shooting range, and I wanted to figure out how the Vega behaves, like when to shoot, and how many missiles and so on, however as I got the hit, the simulator crashed as described.
jonathan did u try from first to end? i mean did u try sa-2F and sa-2E sa-3b and sa-4B ???? if u wanna learn very pro as a virtual FCO i think u have to work from begin.
Yes, I tried all of them, I have had some great times in the SA-3 and SA-2, I am also able to operate the SA-4, however I am not a fan of it. I have had a lot of fun trying to get Gerry Powers in both the SA-2F and SA-2E, however I am pretty bad in scenarios like Operation Linebacker-II or El Dorado Canyon. Either the SEAD get's me with it's ARMs or I don't get a hit against any target, as I try to keep On Air Time short which messes up my shooting. I like the SA-5 most, as it has some neat features, like the home on jam and the ability to launch as many missiles as the launcher can hold in a single salvo (sometimes very usefull against an SR-71).
However, I am slowly getting better with all the systems especially against SEAD
dude... please be aware! hit one target in ashuluk , it not same as u could hit target it scenario's u have to join in scenario's like linebreak II for upper your skill's! if u can't hit one target in line break II with sa-2 or sa-3 ,u are still beginner in there
Originally Posted By: xxJohnxx
Yes, I tried all of them, I have had some great times in the SA-3 and SA-2, I am also able to operate the SA-4, however I am not a fan of it. I have had a lot of fun trying to get Gerry Powers in both the SA-2F and SA-2E, however I am pretty bad in scenarios like Operation Linebacker-II or El Dorado Canyon. Either the SEAD get's me with it's ARMs or I don't get a hit against any target, as I try to keep On Air Time short which messes up my shooting. I like the SA-5 most, as it has some neat features, like the home on jam and the ability to launch as many missiles as the launcher can hold in a single salvo (sometimes very usefull against an SR-71).
However, I am slowly getting better with all the systems especially against SEAD
Hpasp, could you possibly put the SA-5 in as a historically-inaccurate option for the Vietnam and Egyptian missions? I'd like to see how it would perform.
Hpasp, could you possibly put the SA-5 in as a historically-inaccurate option for the Vietnam and Egyptian missions? I'd like to see how it would perform.
I will think it over... ... usually USAF is acting specifically against SAM types in the theater of action.
If we put some new systems in a scenario, than in reality than USAF would fly differently...
... but I will give it a thought.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
guyss... 1 question... as you see 2 s-200 missile launch at one moment in this piicture... so why we cant in sam simuator launching 2 missile at 1 moment ?
Probably because there are two batteries on this photo.....
guyss... 1 question... as you see 2 s-200 missile launch at one moment in this piicture... so why we cant in sam simuator launching 2 missile at 1 moment ?
Probably because there are two batteries on this photo.....
In Ashuluk to reduce the live firing practice costs, it was a common practice that two batteries launched against the same drone, one with inert warhead.
Last edited by Hpasp; 10/04/1208:49 AM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Hello Everybody! Im "new" to this form (vell relatyvly speaking,as a registered member at lest) and just wants to say hello to evrybody who shares admiration to and enjoymanet in this beautifull little sim of our Hungarian friend (and my "neibhor", Im from Serbia) Hpasp! GREAT WORK!!! I have allready done some "achivements" by counqering this wonderfull, but little bit strange and hard-to-learn russian technique, in missions like "Linenbeaker II" by downing both SR-71's with dvina (boy that was hard!!!), which im going to post here if somebody's like to see it! Now, I heave encountered a real problem whit this Sim,also!It's about my favorith SA-5 Gammon! I just can't shoot a single missile in Hungarian scenario beacouse the firing buttons are complitly DEAD in it! I understand that it's a training mission whit no real rockets meant to be launch, as I've allredy play it whit "dvina`s" and "volkhov`s"! And it`s preatty annoying, I must say, beacouse there wasn`t a word about procedure for that mission in manual for sa-5! Neither was there anything that I could find about it on this forum. So if anybody could help...I will appreciate it,greatly!;) See you guys and... sorry for bad English!:(
This is quite a complex question to be answered...
... while the Dvina/Volhov/Neva systems were compromised to the west relatively early, the Vega was quite an enigma for the west during the Cold War.
Consequently it was forbidden for the Vega crew to illuminate any civilian plane, as it could have been possibly equipped with HF recording equipment by the CIA. (The first Volhov signals was recorded by the CIA above Berlin, aboard a civilian passenger plane...)
For the Vega crew, a different practice method was developed, called K7. (you can find the relevant switch in the sim easily)
In K7 mode, the RPC would emit low powered signals towards a close-by special K7 tower, that will simulate the targets Doppler effect by emitting the signal back towards the RPC & the launchers.
So practice was like; switching the RPC into K7 mode, rotate it exactly towards the K7 tower, after detecting the simulated incoming plane, you could practice electronic launches against it.
(Currently this mode is not simulated, but it is one of the future candidates...)
Last edited by Hpasp; 11/04/1205:09 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
dear hpasp... before publish new version on samsim... could u create one manual ashuluk site for sa-5 gammon?
all of systems in sam sim had a ideal position in ashuluk target but sa-5 has no enough space for fighting and all of ashuluk target launching from under 150KM but vega's kill zone is 200
The full range capability of the Vega system was not practiced in Ashuluk. Hungarians had only one firing practice with the Vega, against two targets: LA-17K D=75km H=8km RM-207 D=67km H=16km
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Your enemies were flying these missions in the knowledge, that the Vega system is not in the theater. If Vega would have been there, they would fly the missions differently...
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Is it normal, when target's doppler speed goes down (when it was destroyed, per example), the signal strenght indicator not to change it's indications? It's indications changed only by range to the target (incoming - up; receiding - down)?
Is it normal, when target's doppler speed goes down (when it was destroyed, per example), the signal strenght indicator not to change it's indications? It's indications changed only by range to the target (incoming - up; receiding - down)?
May we have a bit more explanation about that???
Target RCS deterioration after a SAM hit is not simulated.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
I know I ave said this 1000 times. But I'm going to learn this bad boy. I have got all of the others more or less down pat, I'm a little out of practice with the KRUG, but it wou;d take just a few minutes to re-learn.
Expect either a bunch of newbie questions or success reports!
Also, I'm not too much a fan of letting you shoot in missions like Linebacker with the Sa-5b, because it wouldn't be any fun!
I know I ave said this 1000 times. But I'm going to learn this bad boy. I have got all of the others more or less down pat, I'm a little out of practice with the KRUG, but it wou;d take just a few minutes to re-learn.
Expect either a bunch of newbie questions or success reports!
Also, I'm not too much a fan of letting you shoot in missions like Linebacker with the Sa-5b, because it wouldn't be any fun!
Welcome to the Big Stick!
Contrary to other Soviet made SAM systems (SA-2/3/6), the US NAVY/HABU community had BIG respect towards the SA-5B Gammon system, during Operation El-Dorado Canyon. The jamming EA-6B's had to fly an ineffectively low racetrack, as nobody in CIA that time had a clue if the Benghazi SA-5B would be operational during the EDC raid...
Just remember to the Commander of the Soviet Union Air Defense, when he demonstrated to the engineers, what kind of SAM system they need to develop...
PS: If you were living at the Eastern side of the Iron Curtain, than you will recognize, that this request should not be taken as a joke by the engineers...
... also this is the last BIG STICK before the emerging of the S-300 family, so if you learn to be proficient using it, than this digital panel should not surprise you.
Last edited by Hpasp; 12/28/1208:04 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Not sure whether it is a bug or not, but in any case it is suspicious.
I tried Giant reach scenario again, fired one missile against SR-71 so it started to jam. Then switched GSN mode to POISK V VYKL. and fired remaining five missiles (5N62 was not turned off). Roughly at the moment when SR-71 flew tangential path, so its Vr decreased near to zero, all five missiles even they were guided to the jamming source and not searched for a doppler signal, were lost. See attached 3DAAR. Of course I had AS-2 lock and AS-RPC (target coordinater I got from IADS and jamming noise was visible on both speed/distance and spectrum indicators).
I am not sure whether low Vr has something to do with losing of missiles, but I do not know why they were lost.
Yes, SR-71 flew at 20km height, so at the moment of launch, target was at the end of zone 3. I do not talk about probability of hit - the missiles were lost from almost very beginning, they were guided to a jamming signal but they went completely off the correct route.
It's a pity I haven't observed KRO signals, will try it again. And I noticed on the second page of this thread that I am not only one who faced this problem.
Hpasp, I have a question about the leading in epsilon and beta of S-200, how values are determinated and is it fully simulate into the SIM? Also, how I can do a screenshots from youtube?
Hpasp, I have a question about the leading in epsilon and beta of S-200, how values are determinated and is it fully simulate into the SIM? Also, how I can do a screenshots from youtube?
In Epsilon, it is simulated with the program selection logic.
The Beta limitation of the Vega system, is also simulated:
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
In Epsilon, it is simulated with the program selection logic. The Beta limitation of the Vega system, is also simulated:
Do you have it in degrees?
Limited to a maximum of 15degree in azimuth. It was planned to be simulated, but I added it into the code only now.
In elevation, the missile is launched at a fix 48 degree. If the target is further than 80km, than the combined guidance method program is activated, keeping 35 degree above the target till 30sec after launch. After that the proportional guidance method kicks in.
Last edited by Hpasp; 02/24/1312:33 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
new vid ... IRAN latest live firing exercise "sa-5"
Click to reveal..
Nice video, especially the internal shots...
Firing missile No6.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
And notice their O-14 screen is blank and lights around launch buttons are neither lit nor blinking.
Im really happy, that after you learned and played SAMSIM, you could understand what Iranian operators do by watching just few internal screen-shots.
"Realistic to the Switch"
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
During the Cold War, it was unimaginable to make video, inside of these fire control cabins... ... now we can see and understand what they are doing.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
It is a great video, nicely shows operation of Vega, OS-10 connection and disconnection to/from missile, ignition of the second stage (orange cloud), separation of the first stage engines.... It can be seen when the operator switches 5N62 radar on with his right hand on the upper panel and so on.
Next to "Frequency modulation" switch is a clickable button - "UPR Ro"... It was prepared for work, but why not included?
There are several switches on the Vega, that were planned to be work in the future, and there are reasons that they were left out for now. Some of these switches are used against... - different types of jamming, not simulated. - discriminating between different planes on the same beam - detecting incoming HARM ... when the Vega was released, it could be fired only in Ashuluk, there were no use of these functions. (Operation Prairie Fire was released more than a year later only.)
Still I feel, that Vega has not enough Historic missions (as in reality) & jamming methods in the SIM, so there is no point of recreating these advanced functions for now. (The noise jamming currently we have, is a type that nobody in real life would ever try against the Vega.)
Adding 3 more historical scenarios... - Baltic - Black Sea - Vladivostok ... expanding Ashuluk with more complex Strelba scenarios, and ultimately releasing a mission editor, where anybody could create, save and share scenarios is the path for the future I can see ahead.
What are your opinions?
Last edited by Hpasp; 04/16/1301:59 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
... expanding Ashuluk with more complex Strelba scenarios, and ultimately releasing a mission editor, where anybody could create, save and share scenarios is the path for the future I can see ahead.
What are your opinions?
i think around one year ago... i told u hpasp about this
yeahh .... it can be a good hobby for samsim user! shareing the personal scenarios with personal info is a real good idea
I am for advanced functionality of Vega! Maybe different jamming methods can be ommited in the beginning, but HARM detection and discriminating group targets would be nice.
March 24, 13:45 - couple F-14 "Tomcat" from the squadron "Fighting Diamondbacks" cross so called "line of death." The pair flew 4.5 km altitude with almost zero parameter to the position of the ADS. Discovered at (D = 160 km)at 13.50-a the pair of F-14's was fired by a missile from each channel with 8 seconds interval (L-115 km height -4.5 km). 30 seconds later, the F-14 lowered to 2.5 km. 95 seconds after the start, the two missile met the target (D -100 km). Analysis of data from the cabin recorder shows that from the moment of the discovering of the target till the moment of the launches of the missiles, Libyan crew did not eliminate the uncertainty by distance (using data from the CU or the mode for measuring the distance of the complex itself).
Aftermath:
--------
Some "first look" impressions:
As the range of the actual engagement was at 120-100 km, program II of the missile flight was loaded
Russian source claims that there where seen signs of detonations on scopes in both shootings. Here US source stated that missiles where "long-range, high-altitude flight before crashing into the sea"... - as we know, no SAM missile(except earliest mods, not simulated in SAM Sim) is intended to finish it's flight on the ground. So they shouldn't finished their flight in such way UNLESS they where confused by the mirror reflection from the surface:
as there's no such jammer where stationed behind the pair of "Tomcat's" - this is not the case. If the jammer was of the F-14 itself, the missiles would not overflown it like described above...
So, such flight profile is possible only if GSN losses the target (which could be a result of non using the FKM/Nonius from Libian crew), but it should finished with a self destruction, not scuba diving... Another possible option is that in this particular case, missiles locked the signal from the "Hawkeye", or RPN lost the track after U-turn of F-14's... It is strange that in this US book, nor in the russian source any data for U-turn prior to the detection of launches has commenced (only diving to the ground) Also, russian source claims that the signs of hitting the targets where observed on radars from RTV and ZRK itself...
As the range of the actual engagement was at 120-100 km, program II of the missile flight was loaded
Russian source claims that there where seen signs of detonations on scopes in both shootings. Here US source stated that missiles where "long-range, high-altitude flight before crashing into the sea"... - as we know, no SAM missile(except earliest mods, not simulated in SAM Sim) is intended to finish it's flight on the ground. So they shouldn't finished their flight in such way UNLESS they where confused by the mirror reflection from the surface:
(...to be continued, probably...)
Great thread! Please continue.
Just adding some more technical depth.
The missile safety (PIM) has 5 safety level. (I think, it was described earlier...)
We will discuss the 5th here in detail, as it might be important (and missing from the sim ) to better understand what the Libyan operators were seen.
BV - close guidance
If the GSN is tracking the target, there is no KRO signal is visible. When the missile approaches the target, eventually (because it arrives beside of the target) the GSN will loose it. (target angle from the GSN >3.5 degree/sec) At this time, the semi-active (receive only), highly directional radio proxy fuse will be switched on, and the KRO signal is active for a short time. (Not simulated in the SAMSIM) The fuse receives the RPC signal reflected from the target, and detonation.
So the Vega crew assessing a shooting, should look for... - receiving momentarily KRO signal. - speed/altitude change of the target after the target negative spike, merged with the missile-target impact point positive spike.
... and what happens, if the V-880E flies at the dense atmosphere, with Mach6? (clearly outside of its designed engagement zone)
First the nose cone will burn, the GSN will loose target, momentarily KRO signal, missile burned and splashed.
Last edited by Hpasp; 04/27/1301:18 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
... and what happens, if the V-880E flies at the dense atmosphere, with Mach6?
First the nose cone will burn, the GSN will loose target, momentarily KRO signal, missile burned and splashed.
Seems legit, but still we are comparing both point's of view (of course if anybody could suggested us some more sound US sources it would be great). At this book missiles where "long-range, high-altitude flight before crashing into the sea" for this first engagement. Also, according russian's sources the missile-target "rendezvous" was observed not only on S-200 scopes, but also on some target acquisition radars and height-finders.... Of course, this soviet's analysis could be just to calm down USSR high command for the low performance of the VEGA, but it is more logical in it's descriptions of the engagements, than the US book. Of course everybody could judge for itself...
... Of course, this soviet's analysis could be just to calm down USSR high command for the low performance of the VEGA, but it is more logical in it's descriptions of the engagements, than the US book. Of course everybody could judge for itself...
The targets were clearly outside of the Vega kill zone. The system was performing as advertised.
Contrary to the US NAVY pilots, politicians were simply not aware of its limitations... ... against low altitude target, max range: 38km
Last edited by Hpasp; 04/27/1301:06 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
March 24, 18:42 - 1 zrdn C-200 detects target at a distance of 120 km and a height of 3 km. At 18:44 because of lack of connection with HQ, the commander of the Division decided to shoot the target (D = 100 km, H = 3 km). 25-30 seconds after the start, the target dived to a height of 1.5 km. Meeting of the missile and target it at a distance 85 km and height of 1.5 km.
Analysis of the two firing allows the following conclusions:
- The opponent has information on Technical and Tactical Data(TTD) of the complex and with the help of E-2C and the Cruisers "AEGIS" inform pilots of the missile launches. - The crew didn't follow the rules of shooting, not considering the possibility that enemy could use maneuvers, which resulted in that the meeting of the missile and the target is realized in the low kill probability area; shootings carried out by not enough missiles, according to the shooting rules... - Indicators of the RPN (radar illumination of the target), and radar reconnaissance radar RTV observed typical signs of destructing of the targets, held later simulations give reason to believe that they have struck at least 2 aircraft.
----------------------
"Other" side look:
"Our" side look:
Quote
March 24, 20:25 - First and second zrdn tracked group order (D= 150-180 km), azimuth 0 to 20 degrees. Aviation flights are accompanied by active noise jamming medium and low intensity of P-14, P-18, P-35 (on the radar "Oborona-14" and PRV-17 height finder interference does not occur). At 20:50 the noise jamming stops, and on ranges 60 and 80 km 2 targets were observed. The commander of the task group divisions ordered to the 2 zrdn to begin work on the nearest target (1 zrdn continues to monitor the group order (D = 160 km)). In result 2 zrdn stops transmission and began to work out target designation for the second target , at which point the plane, located 60 km from the group divisions fired 2 missiles "Harm". First missile "Harm" explodes a distance of 8 meters and a height of 9 meters from the base of the K-1 cabin, the second flies over the position and destroyed from impact into the ground at a distance of ~ 10 km (in other data ~ 2 km):
... After the explosion of the "HARM"'s warhead, the missiles body continued to fly straight and as it is clearly visible on the pictures and Hpasp's scheme, it's wings made 2 cuts on the upper corner of the receiving antenna...
No one was injured or hurt, and the RPN was repaired by changing the antenna with a spare one from non-installed site in Bengazy. The K-1 cabin was penetrated from only two shrapnels without any damage inside....
How can you be killing an SR-71 at all when none were lost to the sams during its career?
As SR-71 never dare to face "Gammon", how it could be lost?....
Quote:
Three SR71 missions were tracked/fired on during 1967/68 and one was hit by fragments from a detonation in the rear quarter. This damage caused a change in employment of these aircraft. That a 'near-miss' was recorded from 3 engagements suggests that Dvina can track and hit the SR71, but the hit probability and window of opportunity is very small due to the relative performance of the missile, the later Volhov has several improvements in missile technology and guidance/tracking modes that improve the chance.
See, it was almost killed even with the ancient "Dvina"....
guys what different between Acquire target before launchand Acquire target during launch
From the manual:
Quote:
Special Shooting Circumstances Target Angular Velocity is less than 100m/s, or Receding Target The missile’s GSN (semi active seeker head) cannot track target if the target's speed is below 100m/s, while the missile is stationery, so it should acquire after launch
guys what different between Acquire target before launchand Acquire target during launch
From the manual:
Quote:
Special Shooting Circumstances Target Angular Velocity is less than 100m/s, or Receding Target The missile’s GSN (semi active seeker head) cannot track target if the target's speed is below 100m/s, while the missile is stationery, so it should acquire after launch
'
AHHH piston ! in manuak do note wrote about Acquire target during launch hpasp wrote about just v<0 mode ! this different switch and Acquire target during launch is another one !
V POLETE - against low flying targets, when you have RPC, but no GSN lock (track in 3 coordinates)
Quote:
There are two V polete modes. one is plain old V polete, where the missile locks on at 25 db, and V polete ang. velocity <0m/s, used for receding targets. Because their signal strength is much weaker, this modes sets the missile to lock on at 34db. In short, if you had the switch on "V polete" second from the right, yes, that should have happened.
Quote:
Checked - on the third second when "V POLETE", on the sixth second when "V<0"
I think the S-200 uses two different flight paths, depending on the range to target. If you attacked the target just as it crossed the line, some missiles would use the high path, and some the low path.
I am pretty sure that no one in the real world would use such a "tactic" with S-200, as it rather help to lose your missile, than to avoid a HARM....
allien@ when i launch the missiles ! i turn off my RPC and going to tracking range room for broking lock then i use one switch to see missile ballestic path in air ! when my missiles passed 30km in ballestic situations ! i pusk the FKM button ! .. and them missile going to target ! that it !
piston79@ you know it from how ? you meant was that samsim is unrealistic ?
I think what piston meant is that that method is very tricky and unreliable with semi-active missiles. With command guided missiles even if SNR is not transmitting, you have guidance signals emitted. With SA missiles when SNR is not transmiting/GSN not receiving your missiles are basically ballistic missiles, and have a high chance not to reacquire the target once you turn your SNR on.
Not to flame, but... F-16 over Bosnia in 95. was shot down by Kub using a technique similar to this.
I think what piston meant is that that method is very tricky and unreliable with semi-active missiles. With command guided missiles even if SNR is not transmitting, you have guidance signals emitted. With SA missiles when SNR is not transmiting/GSN not receiving your missiles are basically ballistic missiles, and have a high chance not to reacquire the target once you turn your SNR on.
Not to flame, but... F-16 over Bosnia in 95. was shot down by Kub using a technique similar to this.
The main advancement of the S-200V VEGA. V-860PV (5V21V) MISSILE against the earlier version was that it doesn't required CW signal continuously. If CW signal dropped for a short time, it continued flying and looked for the RPC signal to be switched back again... ... and the KUB has more nastier trick also.
Last edited by Hpasp; 07/18/1312:18 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
The main advancement of the S-200V VEGA. V-860PV (5V21V) MISSILE against the earlier version was that it doesn't required CW signal continuously. If CW signal dropped for a short time, it continued flying and looked for the RPC signal to be switched back again... ... and the KUB has more nastier trick also.
Yes, you have to carefully watch KRO signals and don't missile let fly without CW signal for too long (more than 30 or 60s?) But for how long you have to switch RPC back on again? Is this practice mentioned somewhere in the official manual?
How BMS RWR reacts on SA-5? (you could answer on PM, as it is not relevant to this topic)...
BMS's modeling of SA-5 is not the most accurate, just like all Falcon 4.0 mods I know of. The search radar and the fire control radar was abstracted into a single P-35 set, and apparently the missile was command guided with terminal semi-active radar homing...That meant launch warning.
That's still better than the CLoS+TARH in most Harpoon 3 distributions, however. FAS was apparently -rather- reliable, western professional source and all.
K-9 cabinet, from right to left - 1.Operator for distribution of targets in RPC beam; 2. Operator of target distribution (between zrdn-s?); 3. Commander of the zrdn's group:
Left: Commander of the group: On the glass of P-14's VIKO could be drawn some additional info, which helps the commander during engagement (here, per example, the border and the zone of responsibility is shown; 1 and 2 - strobs of RPC-1 channel and RPC-2 channel.
Down-left a rotating scale was used for quick determination of killing possibility - here the killing zone against cruise-missiles(KR), fighter-bombers(IB) and strategic bombers(SB) on high and medium (dotted line) altitudes.
Upper-right: 2. Operator of target distribution (between zrdn-s?) - After every channel starts tracking the target in AS, P (parameter) and T (time in killing zone) are calculate by the CVM (central computing machine). The data (Parameter and/or Time) is used by the Commander to make a decision for which target been attacked first.
a) screens before calculation b) screens after calculation
Operator for distribution of targets in RPC beam: After CU in "Leader1-Follower2", RPC of both channels (zrdn-s) is following one and the same target (upper part of the picture). After target distribution every channel (RPC) is tracking his own target.(note the left orange screen (target distinction indicator).
K-2B cabinet:
Left column indicators:
1. Target is in process of acquisition, MHI, Velocity tracking is on 2. AS-3, MHI, Velocity tracking is on 3. Target is in process of acquisition, MHI, Velocity tracking is off 4. AS-3, MHI, Velocity tracking is off 5. FKM, AS-4 6. Active, narrow beam noise jamming low intensity (self defense jamming) 7. Active, wide beam noise jamming, medium intensity
Right column indicators:
1. Group of targets, MHI, Velocity tracking is on, AS-3 2. Group of targets, MHI, Velocity tracking is off, AS-3 3. Tracking one of the tarhets, FKM, AS-4 5. Changing the tracking from target 1 to target 2in progress, RU (manual tracking) mode 6. Tracking target 2 in RU mode. 7. In case of Velocity Deception Jamming (Velocity Gate Pull Off) the tracking system might "take the bait" and start tracking the jamming signal. Activated modes - RU, Wide Velocity tracking mode, Auto-retracking on Velocity (KR-266V down left) 8. When certain level of velocity tracking deviation is achieved, the automating tracking strobe(cursor) is switching back to manual tracking (RU) strobe (cursor).
Next two should be familiar to the all dedicated SA-5 fans... :
My idea is to read the complete text, now when I know basic ideas from your description I will be able to understand it better And also I have found the russian forum where you also found it so I want to read something from there also. By the way on that forum there is user named halmiso, he is a Slovak SAM veteran and he is also active in czech PVO forum.
I learned russian when I was 11 years old (damn, that's 24 years ago ) for only one year (then the political situation changed and the mandatory russian language was removed from schools unfortunately - I wanted to learn both russian and english). But I still remember your "alphabet" (azbuka in czech and probably also in russian) and I remember some words and so I can read but understanding is worse. It is essential in playing with SAM simulator
I was in a discussion with someone about the Pk ratio of V-880E against Blackbird. Do u know from which manual I could find the G limit of the missile at its terminal? BTW,I know where to find the engagement zone of the system, but the terminal speed and its load factor available cannot be find from this. May u guys have some ideas.
It is quite high for a missile of his generation... ... but it had several tricks to achieve it. (mainly it consumed all fuel on board before terminal phase, or could expel it)
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
I know nothing about Russian. This causes me a lot of problems when reading the original manual. The only thing I can understand is the diagrams and graphs
Let us see this discussion - it will be interesting reading...
I found it in a Hungarian manual. (explanatory notes for the Firing Manual)
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
While there are no Western reports about either US or any other aircraft ever being fired at by Syrian SA-5s, according to Russian and the Ukrainian media reports, the Syrians claimed up to 12 USN aircraft as shot down on 4 December 1983 - all by SA-5s - and including two F-14s, several A-6Es as well as a single Israeli or USN E-2C. Although almost ridiculous - then there is not the slightest trace of evidence for such claims (the USN Corsairs and Intruders lost on 4 December 1984 were all lost to MANPADs and ZSU-23-4s; while the Israelis never lost any of their E-2Cs), such claims are still frequently repeated even in most recent issues of different specialized Russian and the Ukrainian magazines.
While there are no Western reports about either US or any other aircraft ever being fired at by Syrian SA-5s, according to Russian and the Ukrainian media reports, the Syrians claimed up to 12 USN aircraft as shot down on 4 December 1983 - all by SA-5s - and including two F-14s, several A-6Es as well as a single Israeli or USN E-2C. Although almost ridiculous - then there is not the slightest trace of evidence for such claims (the USN Corsairs and Intruders lost on 4 December 1984 were all lost to MANPADs and ZSU-23-4s; while the Israelis never lost any of their E-2Cs), such claims are still frequently repeated even in most recent issues of different specialized Russian and the Ukrainian magazines.
In fact it appears that the only "kill" of SA-5 would be Tu-154M of "Siberia Airlines"....
After missile launch and successful track by missile's GSN, when switch off AS RPC, the missile brakes lock even when target is still in RPC diagram and even inside the speed gates. I think such could deny only CVK of calculate the firing solition for the next launch, not breaking the lock of missile in flight...
I also think so, because AS-RPC is basically not needed for the RPC to track the target - when you go to AS-3 mode (tracking in velocity), the RPC in fact tracks the target in epsilon and beta planes. Range is unknown at this moment, but the target is still illuminated so the missiles should keep flying towards the target.
The other thing is what EXACTLY happens when you disable AS-RPC while tracking is in progress (I will have to try), it could eventually disable also the AS-3, but when the target would be still in the beam of th RPC (as in your case), the missiles in the air must keep guided flight.
When switch off AS RPC, PROLONG is activated, when PROLONG switched offthe missile get lost, when again go on AS-3, it (missile)goes fine again....
But I think you do not focused in relation RPC - GSN, that's the problem! In fact, after target is locked by missile's GSN and target is in flight(sometimes it is the opposite ), if the target is illuminated by the RPC beam, the GSN should follow, no matter what AS (or even no AS) is presented...
Yes, that's exactly what I wrote. That AS-RPC is not needed for RPC to track the target (the AS-3 is sufficient for epsilon and beta tracking which in turn is sufficient for GSN to see the target) and thus keeping the beam directed on it in order for missile to receive reflected signal and home on the target
So what happens with AS-3 when AS-RPC is switched off? Is it also lost? I can not test it at the moment.
And as I also wrote (the same as you, I agree with you in all points ;)) that if the beam is illuminating the target, the missile should home onto it (no matter of AS mode).
After missile launch and successful track by missile's GSN, when switch off AS RPC, the missile brakes lock even when target is still in RPC diagram and even inside the speed gates. I think such could deny only CVK of calculate the firing solition for the next launch, not breaking the lock of missile in flight...
Correct. This is a bug in the GSN code.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
As I given up moving (and screwing up) posts, please describe your last questions... Do not mix Plamya-KV (CVM) programs (5) with the available 97 flight programs of the SRP. Before launch, CVM in program 2 (IADS - AS4), 3 (P14 - AS4), or 4 (Jamming - AS2) should supply onboard SRP with the selected flight program 104..201.
Last edited by Hpasp; 09/13/1405:58 PM.
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I am not mixing it, as all info loaded in missile is a result of PLAMYA work... As those flight programs are combination of trust/height variables and dependent of distance/height of the target (which measured by RPC/CVK), the question is is it possible to manually input info/work without AS-RPC. In some cases it is possible (jamming), so what's the problem to be possible without it....
P.S. Are you sure about those 97 flight programs? Could you tell us more?
1, V880E can pull surprisingly high G's, but its fuel tanks should be empty. CVM should tell the missiles SRP before launch, the selected program, where the onboard fuel would be depleted just few km before expected impact.
2, ZRD has 97 operating programs, 100/82/32kN and dropping the thrust between them. CVM can set ZRD flight time between 45..100s (program 105..200).
3, There are three special programs 104, 153, and 201.
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Yes, the CVK for a launch must have some range information, but in SAMSIM when I completely track target, then I switch AS-RPC off, PROLONG is thus active and apparently CVK is not computing track range data. But I am able to launch and successfully kill the target. So in this case CVK seemingly has the last range information and uses it for the missile. Because when I track the target only in velocity, I am unable to launch as there is no any (even not some last estimate) range information.
So the question is the same as piston's one. What happens without AS-RPC (launch according to SAMSIM is not possible when there is not any range data), when PROLONG is active and target's track is not computed anymore.
And one last question for today: there are 97 flight programs for the flight engine (thrust, time and so). How is the flight profile (close/distant target) selected - is it contained in flight programs or is it selected by a different method?
And one last question for today: there are 97 flight programs for the flight engine (thrust, time and so). How is the flight profile (close/distant target) selected - is it contained in flight programs or is it selected by a different method?
I believe the missile engine program is dependant of expected point of impact height and missile flying time... According to one of the manuals, basically two main regimes existed - regulate thrust program and unregulate trust program:
(non-regulate is line 1; regulate is line 2)
1. Time of flight < 52 sec or T>52 sec and height < 20 km - this must be "unregulate" 2. Time of flight >52 sec and height > 20 km - "regulate" program ...
Thanks, these are details of those two flight modes I was aware (distant/close), but I have not known the details. With my Russian I would read the manuals even in my next 10 lives
So information about 97 flight programs from hpasp has been completely new to me.
Two fixed thrust program block 1 - fixed thrust 100kN 2 - fixed thrust 32kN
Two decreasing thrust program block 12 - constant rate decreasing thrust 0,97kN/sec 23 - quick rate decreasing thrust from 100kN to 32kN
Special program block 1s - propellant release
Using these program blocks, 97 numbered program is stored in the SRP.
104 - is for long range engagements >80km, fuel is exhausted at ~80km downrange at Mach 6.5 (40s "1", "23") 153 - close range engagements <80km, fuel is exhausted few km before impact (70s "12") 201 - very low altitude engagement, max speed Mach 3 at 38km (50s "12", 50s "2")
Last edited by Hpasp; 09/14/1408:37 AM.
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And what about information exchange between missile and plamya (k2) through OS10 before launch? What type od communication is going on (except flight program selection)?
Guys, we had this video before, but now I want to point that the missile had really huge quantity of fuel, and also struggling to maneuver toward the target drone (it looks to me it is flying with great AoA at final intercept)...
Also what was the square symbol on the screen at 1:19?
And what about information exchange between missile and plamya (k2) through OS10 before launch? What type od communication is going on (except flight program selection)?
I think also data about RPC current frequency and transmiting mode (not sure it is from "Plamya" anyway)...
1) missile is launched at a receding target. What happens when missile-target relative velocity is negative (i.e. target is faster than missile) when missile flies with program with reduced thrust. Can SRD react to this and increase thrust regardless of the selected program?
2) what happens when missile-target velocity begins to drop to near zero (for example fast receding target again)? Is GSN lock broken? Again as in the previous question is the missile able to accelerate to compensate for this?
Supposedly also data for the proximity fuse should be sent to the missile.
Proximity fuse is a passive one, works differently than the active ones used by other SAM systems.
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1) missile is launched at a receding target. What happens when missile-target relative velocity is negative (i.e. target is faster than missile) when missile flies with program with reduced thrust. Can SRD react to this and increase thrust regardless of the selected program?
2) what happens when missile-target velocity begins to drop to near zero (for example fast receding target again)? Is GSN lock broken? Again as in the previous question is the missile able to accelerate to compensate for this?
1, Missile program is selected (fixed) before launch. No capability to react for target maneuver.
2, I do not see any air breathing target capable of out-speeding the V880.
Last edited by Hpasp; 09/15/1408:10 AM.
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Supposedly also data for the proximity fuse should be sent to the missile.
Proximity fuse is a passive one, works differently than the active ones used by other SAM systems.
Yes, I am aware of this, but what about for example initiation delay and so on? Is it set dynamically by SRD just a while before target according to missile and target parameters?
1) missile is launched at a receding target. What happens when missile-target relative velocity is negative (i.e. target is faster than missile) when missile flies with program with reduced thrust. Can SRD react to this and increase thrust regardless of the selected program?
2) what happens when missile-target velocity begins to drop to near zero (for example fast receding target again)? Is GSN lock broken? Again as in the previous question is the missile able to accelerate to compensate for this?
1, Missile program is selected (fixed) before launch. No capability to react for target maneuver.
2, I do not see any air breathing target capable of out-speeding the V880.
Thanks.
I know the second question is a rather theoretical one, but I was just curious. I do not think that anybody would launch it at a receding ballistic missile
Supposedly also data for the proximity fuse should be sent to the missile.
Proximity fuse is a passive one, works differently than the active ones used by other SAM systems.
Yes, I am aware of this, but what about for example initiation delay and so on? Is it set dynamically by SRD just a while before target according to missile and target parameters?
The passive radio proximity fuse (it is actually integral part of the GSN) is armed by the GSN when the target is reached, and uses the RPC signal reflected from the target.
Last edited by Hpasp; 09/15/1409:43 AM.
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1) Whole S-200 system is powered on 2) Target is completely tracked by RPC and K2 3) Missile set for preparation through OS10 (power supply and probably start-up command from K3 is sent to the missile) 4) Missile electronic initialisation is started, missile sends "received" signal from GSN to K2 (at this moment missile does not see the target, so there is some signal with no peak in its spectrum until initialisation completes). This signal can be seen on the indicator screen in K2. 4) When initialisation is completed, missile sends received signal from GSN to K2 and K2 sends information about selected flight program to missile. K2 also sends RPC information to the missile - base frequency and doppler frequency. - Question: I suppose K2 sends doppler frequency directly measured by RPC, because missile is stationary on a launch rail at this moment and missile moves its velocity gate during flight according to its own speed. 5) When launch button in K2 is pressed, startup sequence from K3 is sent to the selected missile. - Question: Is the startup sequence automatic, or is controlled manually from K3? 6) Missile starts and flies towards its target, flight is controlled entirely by GSN and SRD (as there is no uplink channel)
Is there any other information exchange between missile and K2 and K3?
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What is the meaning of the lower left switch RABOTA PO V discussed in the bugs thread?
As I understand AS VYKL, then AS in speed is off (according to name the switch defines behavior of the system with velocity). AVTO PEREZACHVAT in VKL position means some sort of switch to automatic tracking in velocity when a target's velocity enters the set velocity gate (automatic AS3 when target is in the gate)?
And what about POLOSA SHIR?
Hpasp some time ago mentioned possibility of automatic tracking of incoming ARM missile which has something to do with switches between two indicator screens (target position in the beam and spectrum analyser) - POISK V and VYBOR DIAPAZON V. How do this work?
What is the meaning of the lower left switch RABOTA PO V discussed in the bugs thread?
Because it is not the standart position of this knob....
Quote:
As I understand AS VYKL, then AS in speed is off (according to name the switch defines behavior of the system with velocity).
Yes... and this is needed only against noise jamming targets...
Quote:
AVTO PEREZACHVAT in VKL position means some sort of switch to automatic tracking in velocity when a target's velocity enters the set velocity gate (automatic AS3 when target is in the gate)?
No... This is when target used doppler velocity gate pull-off,
when AS velocity gate start moving too fast (because got the jamming) from the RU (manual tracking) gate, it switched off the AS and gates jumps back after hitting certain deviation (which could be different depending of what POLOSA is picked up). Also it happens immediately if the operator pushes PEREZAHVAT V button
Hpasp some time ago mentioned possibility of automatic tracking of incoming ARM missile which has something to do with switches between two indicator screens (target position in the beam and spectrum analyser) - POISK V and VYBOR DIAPAZON V. How do this work?
Just a question: when AS velocity gate start moving too fast (because got the jamming) from the RU (manual tracking) gate, it switched off the AS and gates jumps back after hitting certain deviation (which could be different depending of what POLOSA is picked up). Also it happens immediately if the operator pushes PEREZAHVAT V button
Shouldn't it be it switched ON the AS and move the gate back after the gate moves beyond the deviation when in RU? Because when in RU, than it does not make sense to switch off AS as it is not active. And AVTO PEREZACHVAT suggests the opposite.
Just a question: when AS velocity gate start moving too fast (because got the jamming) from the RU (manual tracking) gate, it switched off the AS and gates jumps back after hitting certain deviation (which could be different depending of what POLOSA is picked up). Also it happens immediately if the operator pushes PEREZAHVAT V button
Shouldn't it be it switched ON the AS and move the gate back after the gate moves beyond the deviation when in RU? Because when in RU, than it does not make sense to switch off AS as it is not active. And AVTO PEREZACHVAT suggests the opposite.
I think no, as S-200 could use AS, and at the same time the operator just keeps the RU gates on target, thus when AS goes after the jamming strobe, it measures the deviation from RU and AS strobes, and when hit certain value (~4.6 KHz or 800 Hz, it switching AS off over the jamming strobe, goes back to target strobe and switching AS again...*
*- please, reffer this to a real officer for confirmation....
Thanks, now the principle is clear to me. RPC is tracking the target and when VGPO jamming is active, than the heading and elevation (its change in time respectively) of RPC would not correlate with target's velocity and when difference in velocity (calculated in doppler frequency) is greater than 4,6 or 0,8kHz, then it will switch AS-3 off and enters RU mode.
Thanks, now the principle is clear to me. RPC is tracking the target and when VGPO jamming is active, than the heading and elevation (its change in time respectively) of RPC would not correlate with target's velocity and when difference in velocity (calculated in doppler frequency) is greater than 4,6 or 0,8kHz, then it will switch AS-3 off and enters RU mode.
Not exactly IMHO, as the beta/epsilon tracking is based a bit like in SA-4... Comparing received signal between 2 or more receivers... Remember that velocity is a way to discriminate targets also. When VGPO kicks in, it took your narrow AS velocity gate from the target velocity return and lead it away (another speed zone), and when it was switching off, there is nothing to be tracked, so AS on velocity is lost (meanwhile if target maneuvers, it could slips away from the beam, thus cannot be find even when return velocity gates according the targets speed. That's why when we're tracking maneuvering target (which could use jamming as we expected), it is better to use POLOSA SHIROKAYA, as the target itself could suddenly changes it's radial speed toward us....
Yes, it is like what I wrote. RPC in epsilon and beta planes tracks the REAL position of target (V is not needed for this). So the change of epsilon and beta coordinates in time is known and it means REAL target's track. {In CW mode we do not know the target's distance, but it is calculated by CVM from RPC position changes and measured velocity}. When VGPO is active, then the velocity measured (V) at one moment begins to rise rapidly, but the RPC will still track target (epsilon and beta) and this "small" change of position of RPC (respective to target's REAL position and thus REAL speed which is lower than measured velocity) will not correlate with measured apparent speed and when the change is bigger than 4,6kHz or 0,8kHz then the AS to RU (along with velocity gate shift) switch will happen.
In any case it would be very very great to have this simulated. And also other such advanced scenarios, you can learn the system very deeply when you dig in such things.
The bottom line is the fact that because of these discussions one really knows what is the real purpose of the given switch, because you know WHY it should be switched to each position and you know better WHEN to switch it (not to be just strictly lead by instructions)
In any case it would be very very great to have this simulated. And also other such advanced scenarios, you can learn the system very deeply when you dig in such things.
I think SA-5 is too complicated to be simulated with all aspects, also we are just enthusiast, so not necessary to have such SIM, also Hpasp is doing it is not his job...
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Another question: is GSN, while missile is in flight, somehow capable to withstand VGPO jamming? Maybe false doppler frequency can drop to zero....
For what I managed to find - yes, but the mechanism of this is in RPC, as missile has not enough "brain" to do it... Could you explain your second sentence? I didn't get your point...
Another question: is GSN, while missile is in flight, somehow capable to withstand VGPO jamming? Maybe false doppler frequency can drop to zero....
For what I managed to find - yes, but the mechanism of this is in RPC, as missile has not enough "brain" to do it... Could you explain your second sentence? I didn't get your point...
Let's imagine the following situation: - Target is not jamming and is being tracked by RPC. - Missile is launched - While missile is flying towards the target, the target will start VGPO jamming - what will happen in this situation as missile is guided by its own GSN, will it maintain lock?
The second sentence: for example high speed target is flying away from SAM site while missile is still climbing, so the part of its speed vector in direction to the target is low, and thus GSN receives negative doppler velocity (missile is climbing yet, so its closure rate to the target is negative yet). The target starts VGPO jamming, it will send false return signal with increasing frequency. At one moment, false doppler velocity will be very close to zero and zero at all. Does it break the GSN's lock? The question is how fast the false doppler velocity will cross the filtered "forbidden zone" across zero. And in any way, since the missile is supposed to fly, does it have the "forbidden zone" across zero implemented like the stationary RPC?
I just realized this is the case I asked some time ago what happens when GSN receives zero doppler velocity. It can be easily observed while missile is climbing (constant angle of 48 degrees) and its target is flying away at the same horizontal speed (quite a rare and theoretical case, I know ).
Another question: is GSN, while missile is in flight, somehow capable to withstand VGPO jamming? Maybe false doppler frequency can drop to zero....
For what I managed to find - yes, but the mechanism of this is in RPC, as missile has not enough "brain" to do it... Could you explain your second sentence? I didn't get your point...
Missile can reacquire lost target, so VGPO jamming is not a good option. (one of the main feature of the 5V21V missile -> manual page 34)
After launch, missile doesn't need target range or speed information (engine program is fixed after launch), just direction (visible in KI-234V).
Last edited by Hpasp; 09/29/1407:39 AM.
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I just realized this is the case I asked some time ago what happens when GSN receives zero doppler velocity. It can be easily observed while missile is climbing (constant angle of 48 degrees) and its target is flying away at the same horizontal speed (quite a rare and theoretical case, I know ).
First, there is a limit when shooting at receding targets, which at the moment is not simulated...
Also, there are 2 functions that helps - "V POLETE", and "V<0". They denied GSN from locking with certain time lag (thing about 6 to 12 seconds) in order to achieve good positive radial speed....
I just realized this is the case I asked some time ago what happens when GSN receives zero doppler velocity. It can be easily observed while missile is climbing (constant angle of 48 degrees) and its target is flying away at the same horizontal speed (quite a rare and theoretical case, I know ).
First, there is a limit when shooting at receding targets, which at the moment is not simulated...
Also, there are 2 functions that helps - "V POLETE", and "V<0". They denied GSN from locking with certain time lag (thing about 6 to 12 seconds) in order to achieve good positive radial speed....
two comments... 1, GSN unable to track V0 radial speed target before launch, is simulated. 2, "V Polete" is capturing the target in direction before launch, but not in speed. Few seconds after launch, it captures it in V also.
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Since 1967 (the fielding of the S-200 [SA-5]), no new type of towed or fixed SAM system were fielded by the Soviet Union, only self propelled ones (5 min readiness as basic requirement), and with a good reason.
Almost half century later there is a proposal for the upgrade of the SA-5 (a hopelessly outdated system, that actually never performed while it was still young in the 80's)?
Last edited by Hpasp; 10/26/1405:19 PM.
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Since 1967 (the fielding of the S-200 [SA-5]), no new type of towed or fixed SAM system were fielded by the Soviet Union, only self propelled ones (5 min readiness as basic requirement), and with a good reason.
Almost half century later there is a proposal for the upgrade of the SA-5 (a hopelessly outdated system, that actually never performed while it was still young in the 80's)?
I cannot believe what did you say.... you're speaking like GrayGhost.... By the way, it is pretty recently that SAM missiles could achieve a distance of the VEGA shot...
I think that he's referring to the poor endgame kinematics of very large missiles. It's hard for a missile as big as S-200 (and, for that matter, likely 40N6) to keep up with tactical aircraft, think F-15E or F/A-18. The only realistic targets are bombers and ISR aircraft, and the former have evolved somewhat out of the reach of S-200 (B-1B flies below the altitude floor, and B-2 has good LO characteristics against Square Pair).
Furthermore, truly fixed systems like S-200 are extremely vulnerable to cruise missiles, especially given S-200's engagement floor. S-200 isn't truly viable anymore, with even S-75 and S-125 surpassing its usefulness.
I think that he's referring to the poor endgame kinematics of very large missiles. It's hard for a missile as big as S-200 (and, for that matter, likely 40N6) to keep up with tactical aircraft, think F-15E or F/A-18. The only realistic targets are bombers and ISR aircraft, and the former have evolved somewhat out of the reach of S-200 (B-1B flies below the altitude floor, and B-2 has good LO characteristics against Square Pair).
I am not really sure about that, in the case of the 40N6 missile....
Originally Posted By: ckfinite
Furthermore, truly fixed systems like S-200 are extremely vulnerable to cruise missiles, especially given S-200's engagement floor. S-200 isn't truly viable anymore, with even S-75 and S-125 surpassing its usefulness.
Yep, that's true if you're going to fight USA/Israel...
Since 1967 (the fielding of the S-200 [SA-5]), no new type of towed or fixed SAM system were fielded by the Soviet Union, only self propelled ones (5 min readiness as basic requirement), and with a good reason.
Almost half century later there is a proposal for the upgrade of the SA-5 (a hopelessly outdated system, that actually never performed while it was still young in the 80's)?
I cannot believe what did you say.... you're speaking like GrayGhost.... By the way, it is pretty recently that SAM missiles could achieve a distance of the VEGA shot...
Do not misunderstood me, I think that Vega was an extraordinary technical feat of that time
- it mostly achieved what it was designed for (keeping Habu out of the WarPact airspace)
- its the biggest challenge to operate and simulate. (it is the least covered by SAMSIM, I would say that Volhov is at least 80% simulated, while Vega is well under 40%)
- with the proliferation of Tomahawk, Soviets usually co-located one Neva with their Vegas (same was done in GDR at the 80s, and Hungary during the 90s)
- Shooting well over 200km range is probably unnecessary (or can be done against non maneuvering subsonic targets only)
- Since 1967 (first fileding of the S-200) no Soviet SAM system was accepted into service without the 5min deploy from march feature. (and with a good reason)
Last edited by Hpasp; 10/28/1403:32 PM.
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I think that he's referring to the poor endgame kinematics of very large missiles. It's hard for a missile as big as S-200 (and, for that matter, likely 40N6) to keep up with tactical aircraft, think F-15E or F/A-18. The only realistic targets are bombers and ISR aircraft, and the former have evolved somewhat out of the reach of S-200 (B-1B flies below the altitude floor, and B-2 has good LO characteristics against Square Pair).
Furthermore, truly fixed systems like S-200 are extremely vulnerable to cruise missiles, especially given S-200's engagement floor. S-200 isn't truly viable anymore, with even S-75 and S-125 surpassing its usefulness.
Interestingly, the Vega missile could achieve higher pull than the other SAMs at his time... SA-5B V-880V - 10g SA-4B 3M8M3 - 6g SA-3B V-601P - 6g SA-2E V-759 - 9g
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Question about proximity fuse - how is the warhead detonated when GSN is in home on jam mode? 5N62 signal reflected from the jamming target would be ovepowered by that of the jammer. And missile does not know transmitting power of the jammer, so how is the trigger point calculated?
Question about proximity fuse - how is the warhead detonated when GSN is in home on jam mode? 5N62 signal reflected from the jamming target would be ovepowered by that of the jammer. And missile does not know transmitting power of the jammer, so how is the trigger point calculated?
Impact/Point Detonation?
Its not the bullet with your name on it you have to worry about. But the one addressed: "To Whom It May Concern"
Question about proximity fuse - how is the warhead detonated when GSN is in home on jam mode? 5N62 signal reflected from the jamming target would be ovepowered by that of the jammer. And missile does not know transmitting power of the jammer, so how is the trigger point calculated?
The passive fuse working is quite an intricate topic, but on short. - GSN is continuously tracking the jammer - when GSN antenna acceleration reaches a limit fuse is armed - fuse is highly directional towards the side - when jamming is detected to be at the side of the missile, warhead detonated
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Thanks Now it is clear, distance missile-target is not important, because when the signal comes from the side, the missile could not get any closer to the target (only farther). So it is the only moment when the warhead can be detonated and we can hope for a kill.
I forgot the GSN antenna angle change is an arming condition for the fuse also in normal (non-jamming) environment.
By the way, what about the thing mentioned in the bug reports topic? Is the RPC tracking needed for successful intercept when in home on jam mode in the real world? And what about SAMSIM behavior?
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In Dobris we had Vega fitted with IRZ (according to photos) but I have never heard of K4 , so it is a new information for me.
Its name is 5U24, and had one K4 (transmitter cabin), and four KA-441 antenna (target).
Do you have photos of the Czechslovak IRZ?
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By the way, if I understand it correctly - there is a transmitter completely contained in K4, waveguide goes out of K4 to a wavesplitter and the "antennas to be destructed" are simply waveguides with feeders. So in case IRZ anetnna is hit, nothing of great value is destroyed, because all electronics is contained in a K4 van.
Is K4 somehow connected to K1? I mean if it transmits only when RPC is transmitting and if it change for example wave type (MXI, FKM....) according to RPC?