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#3508994 - 02/01/12 04:54 PM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 3356
Loc: Portugal
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I know that I'm being stubborn regarding the SA-5 but I do strongly believe that there's something wrong with the SA-5 and this time I think it may be something related to it's flight patch (and NOT due to the fuse like I previously thought). I have what I believe an evidence that something is inded wrong regarding the SA-5 missile flight path -> Following Lonewolf's sugestion I started to use the P-14 radar to "keep a look" at my launched missiles and when playing the "1985 - Op. Giant Reach" and firing against an incoming SR-71, I noticed this everytime I play this mission in this same situation: 1- I fired one missile at the incoming SR-71 using the "Adquire After Launch" mode. 2- The SR-71 turned on it's jammer which was expectable which will cause my previously lauched missile to loose it's target and miss which again was expectable, so NO problem here! 3- But the problem is when I fire the all other missiles using the "Home on Jam" mode -> ALL missile WILL FAIL because they simply DON'T FOLLOW the target and ALL MISSILES will follow the SAME EXACT northern "imaginary" route, like this picture clearly shows:  As you can see in picture ALL MISSILES launched in "Home on Jam" mode will follow the indicated flight path in the picture, completly ignoring the target's jammer direction at all! And with this I mean that this isn't one missile or two that for some random reason will loose it's target - I mean all missiles WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTIONS will follow THAT WIERD PATH! I hope this feedback helps somehow. And BTW: Hpasp what you think of this?
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#3509241 - 02/02/12 01:24 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: ricnunes]
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Member
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: Hungary, Europe
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I know that I'm being stubborn regarding the SA-5 but I do strongly believe that there's something wrong with the SA-5 and this time I think it may be something related to it's flight patch (and NOT due to the fuse like I previously thought).
I have what I believe an evidence that something is inded wrong regarding the SA-5 missile flight path -> Following Lonewolf's sugestion I started to use the P-14 radar to "keep a look" at my launched missiles and when playing the "1985 - Op. Giant Reach" and firing against an incoming SR-71, I noticed this everytime I play this mission in this same situation:
1- I fired one missile at the incoming SR-71 using the "Adquire After Launch" mode.
2- The SR-71 turned on it's jammer which was expectable which will cause my previously lauched missile to loose it's target and miss which again was expectable, so NO problem here!
3- But the problem is when I fire the all other missiles using the "Home on Jam" mode -> ALL missile WILL FAIL because they simply DON'T FOLLOW the target and ALL MISSILES will follow the SAME EXACT northern "imaginary" route, like this picture clearly shows:Vega is quite a complex (confusing) system, and Im happy that somebody is getting deep into it. Here are the things, that I used to forget, and screw up an engagement. Before missile launch... "Z"-screen Do you have RPC GOTOV, D ZONA indicators green? GSN settings: Vcr<0 - against targets less than radial speed of 100m/s (track in 3 coordinates) V POLETE - against low flying targets, when you have RPC, but no GSN lock (track in 3 coordinates) POISK V VIKL - against jamming target (track in 2 coordinates only) POISK VKL - against normal target (track in 3 coordinates) When you track a target, and it starts jamming, the Plamya computer do target path prolongation. "C" screen, PROLONG red indication. You need to reacquire the target! Push the PROLONG VIKL red button, and do a proper jamming target tracking in AS2. Than launch only. There can be hidden bugs at the Vega, as it is the least tested system compared to the Volhov, but Im happy if we can find these out.
(3DAAR will also help this)  14:00 28th of March, 1985.
SR-71 Operation Giant Reach.
S-200VE Vega-E
10:23, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 295km
Target azimuth: 286°
Target elevation: 2°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 6,7dB
10:59, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 270km
Target azimuth: 286°
Target elevation: 3°
Target angular speed: 869m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
11:21, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 255km
Target azimuth: 286°
Target elevation: 3°
Target angular speed: 869m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
27:42, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 196km
Target azimuth: 285°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 842m/s (3 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
28:00, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 187km
Target azimuth: 284°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 768m/s (2,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
28:19, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 177km
Target azimuth: 282°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 668m/s (2,3 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
28:23, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu hit by SAM. (miss distance: 189m)
28:37, Missile launched from launcher-4
Target distance: 169km
Target azimuth: 279°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 551m/s (1,9 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
28:52, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 245m)
Total, SNR On Air Time: 4min 3sec 
Edited by Hpasp (02/02/12 01:34 AM)
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3509570 - 02/02/12 01:10 PM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 3356
Loc: Portugal
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Vega is quite a complex (confusing) system, and Im happy that somebody is getting deep into it. Here are the things, that I used to forget, and screw up an engagement. Before missile launch... "Z"-screen Do you have RPC GOTOV, D ZONA indicators green? GSN settings: Vcr<0 - against targets less than radial speed of 100m/s (track in 3 coordinates) V POLETE - against low flying targets, when you have RPC, but no GSN lock (track in 3 coordinates) POISK V VIKL - against jamming target (track in 2 coordinates only) POISK VKL - against normal target (track in 3 coordinates) When you track a target, and it starts jamming, the Plamya computer do target path prolongation. "C" screen, PROLONG red indication. You need to reacquire the target! Push the PROLONG VIKL red button, and do a proper jamming target tracking in AS2. Than launch only. There can be hidden bugs at the Vega, as it is the least tested system compared to the Volhov, but Im happy if we can find these out.
(3DAAR will also help this) Well, I was not firing with "D ZONE" light ON (I was NOT waiting for it to turn ON). I noticed that when I fired with the "D ZONE" light on that the missiles seem inded to fly towards the right direction (towards the target) but in my case I only get the "D ZONE" light on when the SR-71 passes its 3 minute mark (almost at the 4 minute mark) in the plotting table and when I read your AAR and after seeing your plotting table I've seen that you hit the SR-71 just a little bit after the 3 minute mark which means that it was your second and third missiles (the first one was not fired on "Home on Jam") that hit the SR-71 which in my case (playing with current version v923.3) launching missiles with "Home on Jam" at the same distance that you launched your second and third missiles is ONLY POSSIBLE with the "D ZONE" light OFF BUT if I launch the missiles with "Home on Jam" and with the "D ZONE" light OFF the missiles will NEVER follow the target (they will follow that fligth path that I marked in my previously posted picture). So, I want to ask: I which version was that mission of yours played? With the "official" v923.3 or are you using a non-released ("beta") version of SAM simulator? For what's worth I've been following all the procedures mentioned in the manual when engaging "Home on Jam" targets (and any other kind of target for that matter). Anyway, Here's one of my AARs:
14:00 28th of March, 1985.
SR-71 Operation Giant Reach.
S-200VE Vega-E
22:56, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 305km
Target azimuth: 286°
Target elevation: 2°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 5,5dB
25:20, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 195km
Target azimuth: 285°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
25:35, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 185km
Target azimuth: 284°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
25:51, Missile launched from launcher-4
Target distance: 177km
Target azimuth: 282°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
26:07, Missile launched from launcher-5
Target distance: 170km
Target azimuth: 279°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
26:23, Missile launched from launcher-6
Target distance: 164km
Target azimuth: 276°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
26:39, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 161km
Target azimuth: 273°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB
Total, SNR On Air Time: 6min 25sec
I also have an another question: I'm not sure what is the "PROLONG VIKL" button, but I'm assuming that it's this one:  Is this correct?
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#3509592 - 02/02/12 01:53 PM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: ricnunes]
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Member
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: Hungary, Europe
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Well, I was not firing with "D ZONE" light ON (I was NOT waiting for it to turn ON). I noticed that when I fired with the "D ZONE" light on that the missiles seem inded to fly towards the right direction (towards the target) but in my case I only get the "D ZONE" light on when the SR-71 passes its 3 minute mark (almost at the 4 minute mark) in the plotting table and when I read your AAR and after seeing your plotting table I've seen that you hit the SR-71 just a little bit after the 3 minute mark which means that it was your second and third missiles (the first one was not fired on "Home on Jam") that hit the SR-71 which in my case (playing with current version v923.3) launching missiles with "Home on Jam" at the same distance that you launched your second and third missiles is ONLY POSSIBLE with the "D ZONE" light OFF BUT if I launch the missiles with "Home on Jam" and with the "D ZONE" light OFF the missiles will NEVER follow the target (they will follow that fligth path that I marked in my previously posted picture).What I did: 1, Got AS4 with the RPC, using IADS. 2, launched a missile out of zone to frighten the SR71. (this missile will not track, and considered lost) 3, SR71 starts jamming 4, PROLONG VIKL (yes that is it), POMEHA VKL, AS2 5, GSN POISK V VIKL 6, launch as many missiles as possible (WW3 anyway started) So, I want to ask: I which version was that mission of yours played? With the "official" v923.3 or are you using a non-released ("beta") version of SAM simulator?
Always with the latest one .
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3509670 - 02/02/12 03:31 PM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 3356
Loc: Portugal
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What I did: 1, Got AS4 with the RPC, using IADS. 2, launched a missile out of zone to frighten the SR71. (this missile will not track, and considered lost) 3, SR71 starts jamming 4, PROLONG VIKL (yes that is it), POMEHA VKL, AS2 5, GSN POISK V VIKL 6, launch as many missiles as possible (WW3 anyway started) So, I want to ask: I which version was that mission of yours played? With the "official" v923.3 or are you using a non-released ("beta") version of SAM simulator?
Always with the latest one . That's exactly what I do! But what I find curious is that your impacts on the SR-71 (marked on the plotting table) basically happened in the similar spot/area when the SR-71 is when in my game my "D ZONA" indicator becomes green -> So basically when you hit the SR-71 is when I get the green light (D ZONA light) to launch missiles.
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#3627387 - 08/16/12 05:50 AM
S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
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Member
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: Hungary, Europe
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Lets discuss S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) specific issues here...
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3627972 - 08/17/12 04:20 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: Hungary, Europe
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I have tested S-200VE against SR-71 in Tallinn scenario. I launched six missiles, the first which achieved a lock after start was fired at distance of almost 200km and with RSSI of 19,7dB.
1967.
SR-71 Operation Tallin.
S-200VE Vega-E
00:09:47, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 237km
Target azimuth: 48°
Target elevation: 4°
Target angular speed: 908m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 14,2dB
00:10:03, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 223km
Target azimuth: 49°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 906m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 16,1dB
00:10:24, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 204km
Target azimuth: 50°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 903m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 18,5dB
00:10:34, Missile launched from launcher-4
Target distance: 195km
Target azimuth: 50°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 901m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 19,7dB
00:10:49, Missile launched from launcher-5
Target distance: 182km
Target azimuth: 51°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 898m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 21,4dB
00:10:54, Missile launched from launcher-6
Target distance: 177km
Target azimuth: 51°
Target elevation: 7°
Target angular speed: 897m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 22,1dB
00:12:03, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 5m)
00:12:13, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 8m)
00:12:17, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 9m)
Total, SNR On Air Time: 11min 9sec]
The GSN-target received signal strength code was completely rewritten, but it still doesn't feel right, so I will still need to work on it... ... this shot is unrealistic. 
Edited by Hpasp (08/17/12 04:21 AM)
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3629073 - 08/19/12 08:25 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 873
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The GSN-target received signal strength code was completely rewritten, but it still doesn't feel right, so I will still need to work on it... ... this shot is unrealistic. There should be signal/noise ratio for GSN at 3:1 (about 10dB). Here some estimations about range of possible misslie launch, depending by type of the target (bomber;fighter-bomber;cruise missile), transmition mode of the RSN (MHI or FKM) in case of signal/noise ratio for GSN at about 3:1 (10 dB):  As I understand it right, the main problem for CW dopler radar (like S-200VE) is that when radial speed of the target is close to 0, GSN could lock on the main frequence transmited by the RSN (and in our case it is this "noise" signal, which we should avoid by having some +10 dB target signal strenght). Of course, as target speed is closing the 0 or below 0 m/s, the noise level increases, so, to keep our 3:1 signal/noise ratio, we should receive stronger target signal, to distinguished the target...
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#3629625 - 08/20/12 04:58 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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Junior Member
Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 13
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Hi milang,  It was on the Asuluk shooting range, and I wanted to figure out how the Vega behaves, like when to shoot, and how many missiles and so on, however as I got the hit, the simulator crashed as described. Jonathan
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#3629633 - 08/20/12 05:41 AM
Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)
[Re: Hpasp]
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farokh
Member
Registered: 04/22/12
Posts: 614
Loc: IRAN
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jonathan did u try from first to end? i mean did u try sa-2F and sa-2E sa-3b and sa-4B ???? if u wanna learn very pro as a virtual FCO i think u have to work from begin.
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