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#3624281 - 08/11/12 12:24 AM Re: Help me win a BoB2 (v 2.12 beta) test campaign for Luftwaffe [Re: HeinKill]
carrick58 Offline
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Registered: 08/12/10
Posts: 798
soapbox Ditto what JimmyBlonde said. E Day look like good results but +1 will be better with less losses. jamesbond


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#3624368 - 08/11/12 07:37 AM Re: Help me win a BoB2 (v 2.12 beta) test campaign for Luftwaffe [Re: HeinKill]
Old Dux Online   content
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Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 4874
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Excellent ground detail, screenies and operational reports overall.

The ROC back-up chaps must have covered very well - as indeed they should.
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#3625082 - 08/12/12 05:32 PM Re: Help me win a BoB2 (v 2.12 beta) test campaign for Luftwaffe [Re: HeinKill]
HeinKill Online   content
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Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 2177
Loc: Denmark
Well, the consensus of the General staff was clearly: "In the morning hit the RDF and fields west of Rye" then "send across low-level raids again in the same direction as the morning raids to convince the emeny that a follow-up strike was imminent but divert them back to knock out what remains of Lympne and Manston."

Goering looked at these suggestions and took them one further. "Why waste our time on Lympne and Manston gentlemen?" he demanded, "The RAF is blind from Dover to Foreness. Let us show him we can strike at his London airfields with impunity, and dare him to stop us!!" (Call this A test of the Deathstar gambit...)

The Operations staff therefore drew up this plan:

- Unescorted Ju87s would go across at low level, at first light, to hit RDF west of Rye and try to convince the RAF this was in preparation for a major attack on the southwest of 11 Group. In addition, a single Ju87 staffel would raid Manston, again unescorted, to test air defences there.

- Following the Stuka raids, the major offensive would begin. This would entail a raid comprising 90 He111 and 130 Bf109s as escort, which would dogleg through the gap between Foreness and Dover and drive straight at the Biggin Hill sector station, home to at least 3 RAF squadrons.



- A smaller raid of escorted medium bombers would be timed to coincide with the main raid, in the anticipation it would attract the main bulk of RAF defences. This raid would hit the Ventnor RDF station south of Tangmere and Westhampnett, and pave the way for strikes on those airfields later in the day.

The Stuka raids were approaching the coast when intercepted. All were turned back, with some losses.



At Manston however, the Stukas got through, and bombed without sighting the RAF. There was rejoicing at Luftwaffe command - the door was indeed open!

Over Calais, the raid built steadily.



JG 26 was flying high escort.



But all did not go to plan. Perhaps scared into mounting standing patrols, RAF fighters were sighted patrolling the coast between Dover and Manston. 3 squadrons. Luckily, our fighters were in position to attack, with the advantage of height.



The sky was soon full of twisting turning machines.



But the RAF was kept down low, and our bombers sailed on through the gap in the RAF defences, toward Biggin.



There were only 36 RAF aircraft, and two gruppen, or nearly 80 LW aircraft, closed on them, the rest staying with the bombers. It was carnage.





Excited LW pilots claimed at least 20 RAF aircraft destroyed, but our own losses were significant. The less capable RAF Spitfires and Hurricanes are proving more dangerous than anticipated.

As the bombers approached Biggin Hill, the sky was clear.




Flak began bursting ineffectually, as the first wave of bombers swept over the British field, the second wave not far behind.



Bombs rained from the bellies of the Heinkels




And soon a thick pall of smoke showed the Heinkels had done their job.



The raid made it back without incident, and without further interception, egressing over Dover and then dispersing over Calais.

The raid on Ventnor was a lesser success, and lucky to be so. The eager escorting 109s got ahead of the bombers, and were circling over Ventnor while the bombers were still making their ingress, complaining about a lack of RAF defenders. The RAF however had ignored the provocation of the fighters and two squadrons were making straight for the bombers, with the LW fighters now out of position, though they had the height. The LW turned desperately back toward the bombers and the RAF fighters climbing to meet them, but were too late. The RAF got there first, and two bombers were knocked down within the first minutes. The 109s of JG27 then arrived on the scene, and drove the RAF off, enabling the bombers to strike Ventnor, but with reduced effect.

The mid morning recon gave the following intel.

Damage to Biggin Hill was light:





Damage to Ventnor also light. Recon also showed mobile RDF units have been set up at Foreness, indicating this station may be operational again. The RAF trying to close the door behind them!

But enemy aircraft losses were substatial.



39 RAF fighters were destroyed this morning, for a total of 83 RAF aircraft since Adlertag was initiated! The tally includes 29 Spitfires and 52 Hurricanes.

The cost to our own forces this morning was acceptable. 32 of our own fighters were lost, 5 Ju87s and 1 He111, with one of the other damaged He111s making it back to France.

Fighter for fighter, we have now destroyed 83 British fighters for the loss of 44 of our own. Our total losses now are 114 aircraft.



It appears however, that our loss:kill ratio is better for the smaller low level raids of yesterday, than for the major high alt raids of today, where the fighters are more restricted by being tied closely to the slower bombers. And our raids themselves, although on target and in strength, made little impact on the RAF ability to operate at Biggin Hill and Ventnor. On top of this, the Foreness RDF station knocked out yesterday, is transmitting again today.

Having committed so many resources this morning, we have a smaller force of fighters, dive bombers and level bombers available for afternoon/evening operations.

Thoughts?




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#3625095 - 08/12/12 06:04 PM Re: Help me win a BoB2 (v 2.12 beta) test campaign for Luftwaffe [Re: HeinKill]
Johan217 Offline
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Registered: 01/31/05
Posts: 953
Loc: Gent, Belgium
Would you dare risk small raids by 110s in the Tangemere/Westhampnett sector to test the defences there? With some luck they may be able to do pinpoint damage, and they ought to be able to get out in time before reinforcing RAF fighters from Middle Wallop or surrounding bases arrive.

Also, how is your recon intel? Maybe this is a good time to send some recon flights over factories to get a better view of which facilities should be your main targets in the future. If this were real, you would also have to recon airbases, but in the game we have the benefit of hindsight and most fighter bases have already been identified.

Given the fact that apparently the RAF has not been very active in the morning, I suspect they may show up in strength later in the day. Hit-and-run attacks may be the best option if the LW can't bring many aircraft up. At best the element of surprise will achieve local superiority, kills may be few but every one of them counts. At worst... you limit your own losses.

At least the RAF cannot afford to keep its fighters grounded and has to put up standing patrols, while you can choose when and where to strike.
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#3625102 - 08/12/12 06:10 PM Re: Help me win a BoB2 (v 2.12 beta) test campaign for Luftwaffe [Re: HeinKill]
Smithcorp Offline
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Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 1193
Loc: Oz
This seems to be the frustrating thing for the LW - you get through with a big raid and the damage is only light. Maybe a follow-up raid using same tactics to Biggin Hill?

And continued effort against RDF at low level?

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#3625228 - 08/12/12 09:17 PM Re: Help me win a BoB2 (v 2.12 beta) test campaign for Luftwaffe [Re: HeinKill]
JimmyBlonde Offline
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Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 121
That was a pretty expensive raid in terms of fighters lost. I'd have liked to see the RAF operational effort degraded more for the price we paid. Good on you for giving the deathstar gambit a try though Heinkill, it seems as though it is possible to get away with it.

It' was incredibly exciting reading your very well structured AAR too and I'm on the edge of my seat in anticipation of the next one!

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#3625330 - 08/13/12 12:44 AM Re: Help me win a BoB2 (v 2.12 beta) test campaign for Luftwaffe [Re: HeinKill]
carrick58 Offline
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Registered: 08/12/10
Posts: 798
charge During the afternoon hit Dover or the Radar sites. Next Time Up head for the closer airfields.

P.S., Your AAR ,s are real fun.

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#3625354 - 08/13/12 03:05 AM Re: Help me win a BoB2 (v 2.12 beta) test campaign for Luftwaffe [Re: Johan217]
HeinKill Online   content
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Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 2177
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Johan217
Would you dare risk small raids by 110s in the Tangemere/Westhampnett sector to test the defences there? With some luck they may be able to do pinpoint damage, and they ought to be able to get out in time before reinforcing RAF fighters from Middle Wallop or surrounding bases arrive.


Absolutely. I think with Ventnor damaged we have a chance. Remember the campaign intel regarding target damage is not completely accurate, so the damage may be worse than we estimate. (There are two settings for intel - realistic and perfect - with the realistic setting modelling a margin of error or 'fog of war'. I am using realistic.) With Ventnor damaged and a small enough force, we might slip an attack in against Tangmere and then the 110s and 109s can hang around and tangle with any RAF that shows up.

Originally Posted By: Johan217
Also, how is your recon intel? Maybe this is a good time to send some recon flights over factories to get a better view of which facilities should be your main targets in the future. If this were real, you would also have to recon airbases, but in the game we have the benefit of hindsight and most fighter bases have already been identified.


A recon flight can give us some information, but only if it makes it back(!) I sent some Dorniers out yesterday unescorted and all were swatted down. This morning I sent one over with a staffel of 109s in escort, which is how I got the Foreness intel, but it is a costly use of a front line fighter unit which is then unavailable until later in the day ... It's true that we have the advantage of hindsight, and the historical accuracy of this sim is also a weakness because production isn't randomly allocated between industrial sites, it is as it was in 1940. My research shows Spit and Hurri production was primarily carried out at Itchen/Woolston (the Supermarine factory), the Hawker sites around London, Castle Bromwich and Hucclecote in the north (very hard to get to - only possible with 110s as escorts, as the 109s would not have enough fuel). Also, the RAF fighter command airfields are well known, so we don't have to waste our bombs on bomber command fields like Ford, which the LW repeatedly attacked. On the other hand, this knowledge doesn't guarantee success. I have lost this campaign many times, despite my historical insights! A single poorly planned day or failed raid can tip the scales.

Originally Posted By: Johan217
Given the fact that apparently the RAF has not been very active in the morning, I suspect they may show up in strength later in the day. Hit-and-run attacks may be the best option if the LW can't bring many aircraft up. At best the element of surprise will achieve local superiority, kills may be few but every one of them counts. At worst... you limit your own losses.

At least the RAF cannot afford to keep its fighters grounded and has to put up standing patrols, while you can choose when and where to strike.


Yes, that does worry me. We only saw about 8 squadrons in action this morning, nowhere near what the RAF can muster if it chooses to. But those 8 squadrons are currently down and refuelling/rearming. So they will probably be unavailable for a couple of hours.

The dilemma is this. Go with what we have now, mid morning to mid afternoon, while several RAF units are out of play, with the challenge we will not be able to hit as hard...or save all our resources for multiple attacks later in the day which will serve to stretch the RAF thin, but the risk that they will have all their squadrons (and repaired RDF) at readiness again.

Checking on our own readiness I can see we have the following combat ready units available for the next period:

- 2 gruppen Ju87
- 3 gruppen Bf110
- 4 gruppen Bf109
- 6 gruppen medium bombers

Originally Posted By: Smithcorp
This seems to be the frustrating thing for the LW - you get through with a big raid and the damage is only light.


True, but victory comes not from damage to RAF infrastructure in itself, but from air superiority. As long as the RAF is drawn into the sky to try to stop us hitting their airfields, we can win.[/quote]

Originally Posted By: JimmyBlonde
That was a pretty expensive raid in terms of fighters lost. I'd have liked to see the RAF operational effort degraded more for the price we paid.


Agree. On the basis of this, I'm not sure I want to try the thousand bomber raid. We were getting 2 RAF for every LW fighter with smaller raids on Adlertag, whereas our ratio was more like 1:1 this morning and contrary to popular belief, we don't have unlimited fighter resources! Plus we are bleeding the experience pilots we will need when we turn to face Uncle Joe in the East...

But the 1,000 bomber raid is always an option. Example here from an earlier version of BOBII.



Originally Posted By: carrick58
charge During the afternoon hit Dover or the Radar sites. Next Time Up head for the closer airfields.


Yes. My own instinct is to go in now with what we have with raids on multiple targets (escorted and unescorted), while the RAF is refuelling at least 8 of its squadrons, and the RDF chain is weaker than it will be later in the day.

_________________________
Looking for reviews, missions, info and campaigns for IL2 Battle of Stalingrad, War Thunder, IL2 Cliffs of Dover, or Battle of Britain II?

Only BoB GameHub has the CoD REDUX campaign, and Single Missions Megapack (50+ missions). Here you can also find the BOBII Whirlybird Missions Megapack.

10,000 downloads so far!


BoB Game Hub
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WWII air combat videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/3534067?feature=mhum#p/u

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#3625608 - 08/13/12 01:51 PM Re: Help me win a BoB2 (v 2.12 beta) test campaign for Luftwaffe [Re: HeinKill]
Heretic Offline
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Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 1663
Loc: GER
What about a strike at the factories, guys? Too much (distance-wise) for a 109 escort to handle? Too early?
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#3625744 - 08/13/12 05:49 PM Re: Help me win a BoB2 (v 2.12 beta) test campaign for Luftwaffe [Re: Heretic]
Smosh Offline
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Registered: 02/07/01
Posts: 2033
Loc: Gisborne, New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Heretic
What about a strike at the factories, guys? Too much (distance-wise) for a 109 escort to handle? Too early?


Personally, I think we still need to concentrate on RDF and airfields for now.
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