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#3970934 - 06/21/14 06:27 AM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Thanks!

Did you scroll down the topic from my "BAD on MATH" post? I think you find it interesting... There is something-we do not consider wavelength differences, sometimes it does matter a lot:



Last edited by piston79; 07/02/14 10:41 AM.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3970941 - 06/21/14 08:10 AM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Thanks!

Did you scroll down the topic from my "BAD on MATH" post? I think you found it interesting... There is something-we do not consider wavelength differences, sometimes it does matter a lot:




This table is very good, as it shows exactly the Soviet threat frequencies...
biggrin

16GHz - Shilka
8.4GHz - Neva
2.3GHz - Dvina
175MHz - P14/18

The 1sqm RCS at 175MHz for the Lockheed design should be a typo.
(it would mean ~170km detection range with the P18, against the F-117A)

Last edited by Hpasp; 06/21/14 11:24 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3970980 - 06/21/14 12:31 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Thanks!

Did you scroll down the topic from my "BAD on MATH" post? I think you found it interesting... There is something-we do not consider wavelength differences, sometimes it does matter a lot:




Yes, I did... Approximately the same figures as mine, which is not surprising...

The data from this picture, I believe, was first published by a guy named "Flateric", a very serious insider from Russian aerospace industry. That data, however, appears to be on the Have Blue or very early Senior Trend prototype, because it only competed with Northrop design at that phase. I guess the Soviet intelligence grabbed the 1 m^2 number from the same source and that's how it went into all the books. They, however, seem to totally disregard the fact that Northrop model already had VHF RCS two orders of magnitude smaller, which meant that Lockheed model could also be brought to the same level of VHF stealthiness. And it appears that it was.

#4030075 - 10/31/14 09:33 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


There were two targets in the air (no jamming was present), in the detection range of 3/250.
Both were F-117A, and depicted in the sim.
thumbsup


I cannot understand why we not discussed it earlier, but I never-ever found or read about two targets, nevertheless they were F-117.... screwy

Here the Anicic's book:

SMENA - F-177 appears....

Last edited by piston79; 11/01/14 02:13 PM.
#4030084 - 10/31/14 09:54 PM Re: Allied Force B-2A Raid on Belgrade [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


The Video8 tape of the F-16CG (serial: 88-0550) shot down by 3/250rd PVO (third SAMSIM mission) was salvaged by the Serbian military...
... here is how DEAD work (and sometime it fails...) from the Night Falcon view.


Internal clock of the F-16CG Night Falcon is used:

00:04:00 "hammer2 you got steerpoint 41, I'm sorry hammer3 you got it"
CRACK3 F-16CJ HTS pod located 3/250rdPVO and sent its coordinates to HAMMER3 F-16CG as "Steerpoint-42".

00:04:47 "crack3 magnum 6 golf 100"
HARM shot against 3/250 rd PVO from CRACK3 F-16CJ

after the HARM missed, 3rdPVO starts their real battle...

00:04:58 "hammer status" - "hammer21 left to steer 6" - "crack73 AAA" - "hammer2 hammer3 AAA back in your position"
3/250rdPVO illuminated the F-16CG for a short time, while the AAA defending the "Veliki Radinici" reserve AFB distracted the pilots.

00:05:30 "hammer status" - "hammer1 is going to target that (AAA) underneath you"

00:05:45 "2 supported"
3/250rdPVO started continuous target tracking.

00:06:00 "we're attacking AAA 15 west of bull"

00:06:17 V-601PD missiles are launched by 3/250rdPVO

00:06:24 "mud3 north - visual"
one Viper pilot seen the SA-3 missiles

00:06:36 "mud3 hit" - CAUTION!!! - "mud three just hit again" - "hammer1 defending" - "mud3 just take a hit"

ON Air Time total: 51s
00:05:45-00:06:17; 32s target tracking
00:06:17-00:06:36; 19s missile flight till kill





#4030220 - 11/01/14 07:26 AM Re: Allied Force B-2A Raid on Belgrade [Re: piston79]  
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Holloman commander recalls being shot down in Serbia

The surface-to-air missile that hit the belly of Lt. Col David Goldfein's F-16 in May 1999 came from an unexpected source.

The SAM launch sites had proved to be a constant threat in Serbia, disappearing and reappearing. This one appeared right under the squadron's route as it flew into Belgrade, Serbia, on a night mission to destroy enemy air defenses. The missile destroyed Goldfein's engine.

"I became a very expensive glider pretty quick," said the 47-year-old Goldfein, now a brigadier general in command of Holloman Air Force Base, who recounted the incident last week. He saw the flak clouds from the anti-aircraft fire that was trying to zero in on his damaged plane.

He felt a stinging sensation on his hand and he looked down to find blood welling from a minor shrapnel injury, said Goldfein, who then commanded the 555th Fighter Squadron and led the first of many missions of Operation Allied Force over Serbia.

"That's when your training kicks in," said Goldfein, one of two pilots shot down in the operation. "It was a full-moon night. You don't want to be highlighted (in the sky) too long."

He waited to eject so he would have just enough time for his parachute to deploy while spending as little time as possible as a floating target. The ejection mechanism worked flawlessly.

After landing in a "perfectly plowed field," he rolled and popped off his parachute. Helmet still on, he grabbed his things and headed for a ravine. The ravine sloped down at a steeper angle than he had expected from his hasty survey, and he tripped and fell face first.

"My stuff was like a raft in front," he said. "I was riding it like Indiana Jones down to the bottom."

He collected himself and then made radio contact with the fighters still circling above.

"My first call was answered by my buds who were with me," Goldfein said. "There wasn't a minute I didn't hear jets overhead, and that was very comforting. There was absolutely no question in my mind I was getting out that night."

As his training had taught him, he dumped anything shiny that would reveal his location and traveled along the edge of the plowed field. If the field had land mines, he thought, the farmers would already have dug them up.

The countryside looked a lot like Indiana or Ohio farmland, he said. "There were lots of dogs and roosters up and awake and sounding off at 2 a.m.," he added.

After walking about two miles, he found a relatively remote cleared area.

"I had to find a good spot to stay hidden and coordinate the rescue," Goldfein said. "It was just, 'Don't screw it up; don't get in the way.' "

He once again communicated his position, and then, from his hiding spot, heard a rustling sound and looked in the direction of the noise.

"Whatever it was, it reared up on its hind legs ... I saw beady eyes," he said. "I say it was a Serbian tiger, but my buds said it was probably a field mouse."

He ran for a distance, which turned out to be a blessing because he found a better landing spot. When the rescue helicopter arrived, it brought enemy fire with it. Within seconds of its arrival, Goldfein was in the helicopter. A later inspection revealed five bullet holes in the fuselage.

"We never know when some young airman is going to risk everything to come pull us out," Goldfein said. "You become extremely humble. They get a bottle of scotch from me every year -- a single-malt, good quality."

Goldfein said the unit saves the last of the bottle and, when he is able to bring the new bottle in person, they drink it together. Even though the airmen who participated in his rescue have rotated out of the squadron, he said, "it's the legacy of the unit."

But, he added, "I keep in touch with many of the airmen on that rescue."

Goldfein said he wanted to fly immediately afterward, but his commanders told him to wait a day. Although he flew the next day, he points out that pilots in Vietnam often flew the same day they were rescued and they didn't receive a hero's welcome when they returned home.

Nonetheless, Goldfein could rightfully consider the incident a day at the office.

"My dad is a career fighter pilot in the Air Force century series fighters," Goldfein said. "I've really been in the Air Force my whole life."

His older brother, a two-star general, is vice director of the Joint Staff at the Pentagon, and his younger brother flies F-16s at Hill Air Force Base in Utah.

Goldfein also deployed to Abu Dhabi for Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm and to the Vicenza Combined Air Operations Center for Operation Deliberate Force. He has more than 3,900 flying hours in the T-37, T-38 and F-16C/D.

Published on January 26, 2007 in the El Paso Times.
Used with permission from the El Paso Times.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4030340 - 11/01/14 05:48 PM Re: Allied Force B-2A Raid on Belgrade [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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If I got it right, this particular element was detected by P-18 on 25 km..... Pretty low for a non-STEALTH machine on 6 km altitude....



By the way, how about that thing... ?

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


There were two targets in the air (no jamming was present), in the detection range of 3/250.
Both were F-117A, and depicted in the sim.
thumbsup


Quote:
I cannot understand why we not discussed it earlier, but I never-ever found or read about two targets, nevertheless they were F-117.... screwy

Here the Anicic's book:

SMENA - F-177 appears....

#4030359 - 11/01/14 07:17 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


There were two targets in the air (no jamming was present), in the detection range of 3/250.
Both were F-117A, and depicted in the sim.
thumbsup


I cannot understand why we not discussed it earlier, but I never-ever found or read about two targets, nevertheless they were F-117.... screwy

Here the Anicic's book:

SMENA - F-177 appears....


Did you checked the 3DAAR?


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4030368 - 11/01/14 07:35 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Did you checked the 3DAAR?


I am talking about reality, as it is historical scenario and it is on the SIM, but as I told, nor in "Smena" book, nor in any media interview with Col. Dani I find info about two F-117A at the same time in this particular night...

#4237127 - 03/06/16 03:35 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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#4315495 - 11/26/16 10:33 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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Some details from czech forum about possible B-2 downing in 1999 by 3. rd from 250. rbr (from Czechoslovak magazine from 2010, in Slovak) HERE .


In short:

On 20th May 1999 3. rd (this time Djordje Anicic was in command) at location BECMEN-2. Shortly after midnight they locked target (200m/s velocity, 180 degress azimuth, 16km distance, 4,5km parameter, 7km height).
At 0:11 two missiles (5V27D) were launched. Both of them hit the target, at that moment 13km far above Obrenovac town.
After hit the target turned left, flew over Dec town in the direction of highway between Belgrade and Zagreb.
At 0:23 the target crashed at Spacvanske sume near Zupanja town about 15km deep in Croatia.
Crash information comes from secondary sources, because 3. rd immediately after the hit switched high voltage off.

Immediately after the incident air traffic increased significantly and 3. rd was in BR until 1:30.

The target should be a B-2A and this assumption is supported by the fact, that many trucks came from Bosnia to the crash site and the site was completely closed for two months.

#4315683 - 11/27/16 08:37 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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7 km seems too low for the B-2..

#4315689 - 11/27/16 09:17 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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This is exactly what I was thinking about while reading that article. But unfortunately I have no more information, only this article and the well known symbol on the cabin door :-(

#4315690 - 11/27/16 09:20 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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By the way, when there is no wreckage or parts available, I think we will never know for sure until US declassifies it (in case it was really a B-2).

#4315856 - 11/28/16 03:31 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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And I forgot to mention one thing - the very last mission of B-2 in Serbia was conducted on 21st May 1999 - the next day after the downing.

#4315974 - 11/28/16 09:24 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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My thought:
- Do we know what serbian "secondary sources" has said that it was B-2? Because clearly it was not the S-125 operators despite that picture on the cabin.
- Do we know list of B-2 flights through war? How often they flew? Was it each day and with ending on 21st May or they flew like once a month or similar?
- Which SAM battery and when has damaged the second F-117? The second damaged F-117 is confirmed by US sources - when and how it happened?
- What was the air picture that day (20th May) when shooting occurs - other aircrafts, jamming?

- And at what range the P-18 radar operator has seen the target for the first time on 20th May? It was mentioned with the first F-117 case but not in this case.

Last edited by PN79; 11/28/16 09:27 PM.
#4317883 - 12/06/16 08:43 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: PN79]  
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Originally Posted By: PN79
My thought:
- Do we know what serbian "secondary sources" has said that it was B-2? Because clearly it was not the S-125 operators despite that picture on the cabin.
- Do we know list of B-2 flights through war? How often they flew? Was it each day and with ending on 21st May or they flew like once a month or similar?
- Which SAM battery and when has damaged the second F-117? The second damaged F-117 is confirmed by US sources - when and how it happened?
- What was the air picture that day (20th May) when shooting occurs - other aircrafts, jamming?

- And at what range the P-18 radar operator has seen the target for the first time on 20th May? It was mentioned with the first F-117 case but not in this case.


1. I know Anicic said so on TV... I guess this guy was really mad about Dani's promotion etc. and just goes crazy a bit...
2. Guess it is really secret...
3. April 30 An F-117A of the 49th FW was damaged during strike mission by a nearby explosion of an SA-3 SAM, "...causing loss of part of the tail section, but the aircraft was able to return safely to Spangdahlem air base, Germany." (source: Air Forces Monthly, July 1999, p. 75) (credits to Hpasp!)
4.Must check in Anicic book...

#4318030 - 12/07/16 02:09 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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49 sorties launched from Whiteman AFB, 45 dropped

See slide 3
http://www.northropgrumman.com/AboutUs/A...-and-Beyond.pdf


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4318041 - 12/07/16 02:37 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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Excerpts from Osprey - Combat Aircraft 064 - B2A Spirit - Units in combat

During OAF, a total of seven operational B-2As were available to the 509th BW on the ramp at Whiteman AFB. Six of these aircraft were assigned to combat, with a single jet kept as an operational reserve.

During OAF. the B-2A would be the only platform to deliver the new GBU-31 JDAM.
At the start of the campaign, there were around 600 JDAM in US stocks the only country to use the weapon.

The Spirit finally went into battle in the early hours of 24 March 1999 two years after the aircraft had achieved Initial Operating Capability. Two B-2As, each loaded with 16 GAMs launched from Whiteman and headed for the Balkans. Their attacks followed air and sea launched missiles fired earlier - they were the first manned aircraft to fly over their targets.

Interestingly, during the operations against Serbia, the B-2As as a general rule, did not operate with other assets as part of a strike package, but instead performed their missions either as singletons or in pairs outside of the NATO command.

It is important to note that on occasions, the B-2As in-theatre did take advantage of support from electronic warfare aircraft such as the US Marine Corps’ Italy-based EA-6B Prowlers. Those close to the B-2A community insist that this was done nor because the jet's low observable characteristics were insufficient, bur because 509th BW mission planners wanted to give their crews as much protection as they possibly could.

So successful was the GAM/Spirit that by 1 April, the USAF had used up 224 of the weapons - more than one-third of its total stock. This illustrates that up to this point in the B-2As had flown 14 individual aircraft sorties, averaging at least one B-2A single-ship sonic per day.

Between 5 and 12 April, the aircraft expended a further 162 GAMs, and on these occasions the B-2s were mostly performing dual-ship missions.

A total of 51 B-2A pilots flew at least a single combat mission, some flew two and a small number flew three.


Last edited by Hpasp; 12/07/16 08:28 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4318047 - 12/07/16 02:57 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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Interesting awards...

CULBERTSON, CARY N.
Synopsis:
The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Silver Star Medal to Cary N. Culbertson, Captain, U.S. Air Force, for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in connection with military operations against an opposing armed force while serving as Pilot of an F-16 Fighter Plane in action, near Belgrade, Yugoslavia, on 14 April 1999. On that date, Captain Culbertson was leading a flight of F-16CJs that was providing suppression of enemy air defenses for B-2 bombers on a strike mission near Belgrade when Serbian forces fired three SA-3s at the fighter planes. Captain Culbertson turned his F-16 toward the rising missiles and attacked the SA-3 site with a high-speed antiradiation missile. The enemy then launched two more SA- 3s, this time directly targeting Captain Culbertson's aircraft. Although he would have been justified to discontinue his attack and defend against the incoming missiles, Captain Culbertson, with total disregard for his own personal safety and with the lives of his flight members foremost in his mind, continued his attack. Firing a HARM missile he destroyed the enemy radar dish, and then evaded the SA-3s. By his gallantry and devotion to duty, Captain Culbertson has reflected great credit upon himself and the United States Air Force.
http://valor.militarytimes.com/recipient.php?recipientid=46475

Paul W. Tibbets IV
The President of the United States takes great pleasure in presenting Captain Paul W. Tibbets IV the Distinguished Flying Cross for distinguishing himself by extraordinary achievement while participating in aerial flight as a B-2 Mission Commander, at or near Yugoslavia, on 8 April 1999. On that date, Captain Tibbets made aviation history by leading the world's first B-2 combat sortie without package support during Operation ALLIED FORCE. He displayed exceptional courage, skill, and endurance while flying a 30-hour combat mission, penetrating an advanced integrated air defense system that included an impressive array of ground threats, with no suppression/destruction of enemy air defense or offensive counter-air support available. Using his expert knowledge, Captain Tibbets resolved a system anomaly, which would have inhibited release, within minutes of striking his targets. Employing the new Joint Direct Attack Munition, Captain Tibbets successfully targeted 16 separate impact points and destroyed critical military production facilities including the Smederevo Petroleum Product Storage near Belgrade, a radio relay facility, and an arms production plant in Kragujevac. The professional competence, aerial skill, and devotion to duty displayed by Captain Tibbets reflect great credit upon himself and the United States Air Force.
http://www.liberty1st.org/honorroll/citation_detail.asp?ID=3010


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
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