Any help for a newbie tanker? Is that even a proper term, "tanker"? Tank driver? But I prefer shooting than just driving....

Anyway, looking to get into SB a bit deeper. I've done the tutorials more or less and have roughly grasped the idea behind each, but no clue what I'm doing during missions. Is there a more in-depth tactics tutorial somewhere?

What do I need software-wise to properly enjoy this sim? Obviously the latest version of SB, but are there any graphical or interface mods out there?

Is there a SimHQ group that plays regularly? Or any UK-based armor (armour) groups that is willing to train a newbie?

Any help/guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Do the LandNav scenario by GarryOwen - it reinforces how the map is read (how to determine elevation and 'flow' of terrain).

Look for the "Platoon in Attack" series of missions, they are small and fairly focussed, so grokking what is needed should come faster than a monster mission.

None of the mods materially change anything - slightly 'different' sounds or graphics, but not IMO always an improvement. Nothing else is moddable. Additional Maps (both elevation and alternate ground-cover) are useful, but commonly (though not always) embedded in the scenarios ~ and are only definitely needed for building your own mission on 'that' terrain.

There is a UK armour thread in the top 3-4 posts here... Magnum is also active here ~ otherwise you have the PzBtl 901 (iirc) on Weds. @ UK friendly times, (though mostly German Speaking) and TGIF on Fridays (early eve US time, so late here...)

Look on the SB wiki (links from the home page/GameInfo/Wiki), and also you could try these books:

Armour Attacks (Antal)
Panzer Tactics (Schultz) (ww2 but still largely relevant, written by ex Bundeswehr tank commander ~ like wot Nils is )

Also worth hunting about for NTC 'debriefs' that sometimes can be found online. Seeing how others screw up... at least makes it less painful the first several dozen times it happens to you too

Pick one 'tank' and learn it (more or less thoroughly). Then learn the subtle differences to another, rather than trying to 'learn' them all at once.
The Leopard 2A5 or Str122 are possibly 'easiest' and most forgiving ~ the other Leopard 2s are very similar, but either have less armour or some quirks in Fire Control/ammunition. The 2A5 might be easier, defaulting to the HEAT round, rather than the Swedish HE round that flies slower, and is thus harder to hit movers with.
Some people find the M1A1 'better' ~ though whether this is purely patriotism, or because the floating reticle aids 'learning the FCS' I'm not sure It doesn't hurt having an HMG on board...
The Challenger is 'unique' and may be less easy to 'get' as a first vehicle?
The other MBT and IFV/APC/AFV are less survivable ~ at some point getting good with these will aid your tactical selections generally, but for a neophyte they may be frustrating.

An often overlooked resource is the "Documents" folder in the Steel Beasts program directory (of the Start Menu), especially TacSOP.doc which, though US centric, still is a very useful reference to everything tank related.

There are no tutorials about tactics because, well, there is no right or wrong in this field. At best, there's a "usually right" and "typically a mistake" kind of categorization for certain rules of thumb. These are based on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the different types of own and enemy troops, the terrain, the weather, the mission.

Check out the Steel Beasts Wiki at www.SteelBeasts.com to learn about the capabilities and limitations of the various weapon systems that are modeled in SB Pro. If you know that, for example, a tank usually has a range advantage over an infantry fighting vehicle, you can already draw your conclusions about useful tactical behavior. The word "usually" in the last sentence also indicates that there may be exceptions to the rule - e.g. if the IFVs are equipped with long range anti tank missiles. Learn about the strengths and weaknesses of ATGMs (e.g. long range, high accuracy, good lethality ... but low volume of fire, limited in their selection of firing positions, can't shoot hrough vegetation, often forced to maintain a line of sight to the target, ...).

It's a bit like playing chess with a board that has trillions of fields and with pieces that are more flexible but also more limited than your usual assortment of chess pieces. Tactics is about making decisions under uncertainty. It is not just about making the right decisions, but also to make them on time - in anticipation of the enemy's next move. Which means, you need to be able to read the enemy's intent from sketchy situation reports. That will require a lot of experience, which you will gain through playing.

Learning will occur after the battle. Take the time to use the AAR tools to their full extent. Try to learn from your mistakes, try to understand why you were successful, what you would do again, what you would do differently. Above all, during the planning phase, you need to read and understand the mission briefing, develop an idea how you want to accomplish a mission. There's little to be learned from failure if you didn't have a plan to begin with. "Plan" is used in a loose term here, referring to, at least, an idea how you could tackle the tactical problem with which you are confronted.

You need to do X?
What's needed to do that? Y?
Okay, how do you achieve Y? Need to do Z first?
There's your idea: Z, then Y, so you can do X.

Hi ICE, drop our CO Tjay an email here http://www.ukarmour.eu/ we're always happy to hear from new people,
we meet twice a week, and are a friendly bunch, and don't worry about being a newbie, we're still learning all the time,
that's part of the fun

kramer, crusty, thanks for the heads up. I've seen their thread and I'm checking out the site.

Lieste, I'm sorry bud, but most of your post made absolutely no sense. Not your fault -- I suspect this is because I'm very new and have not even installed SB yet... just as a new civvie flyer will be baffled by REX/ORBX/etc. when starting on FSX.

Regarding tanks, I do agree I need to pick one and learn it, but which one? I have absolutely no idea about tanks except that I drool on the screenshots posted on the screenshot/AAR forums. I'd like a tank with a big punch and/or range -- I like being able to reach out, say "bam!", and make a profound effect on someone else's life Any recommendations?

Regarding mods, what is available? I suspect there may be no game-changing mods as "realism" is the name of the game here and so far I think eSim Games have got it right based on the lack of posts regarding this topic, but is there anything else?

Ssnake, I know that with proper study sims, there is no real right or wrong answer, there is just the "usually right" and the "typically wrong" branches... and sometimes the "usually right" answer becomes wrong simply because of the factors involved in that situation.

Well, pretty much any tank is a good starting point. That being said, I usually recommend the Leopard 2A4. It is pretty beginner-friendly, and once that you know it well, almost the entire Leopard family in SB Pro (Leo 1A5, Leo 2A5-DK, Strv-122, Leopardo 2E) will be a piece of cake to learn based on what you know from the 2A4. At the same time, it offers decent (though not invulnerable) armor, decent (though not top of the line) ammo, giving you a good feel of the middle ground, so to speak.

Some prefer the M1A1 because they are patriotic or maybe just because they happen to like it. It is very similar to the Leo 2A4 in its fundamental capabilities, yet distinctly different in the user interface. This user interface shares some similarities with the Challenger 2, which is reasonably easy to learn as well, but has a few unique quirks that won't be found in any other vehicle.

The CV90 family is probably one of the most complicated from a switchology point of view, therefore maybe not best suited for beginners (and like all comparatively light armored vehicles, they are pretty vulnerable and therefore tactical mistakes will usually be punished severely).
It's similar with the Centauro, or the Leopard AS1 (or the Leo 1A5) - all relatively thin skinned, with a relatively weak 105mm gun, hence always a risk whenever you can't use standoff distance, flanking positions, and surprise to your advantage.

The T-72M1 is a unique beast of its own, probably one of the bigger challenges, so I'd wait with it unless you are attracted by its rough retro charms.

In terms of IFVs, I like the Pizarro which is a bit underrated IMO. Well protected, generous amount of ammo, a relatively decent gun caliber, not too complicated to handle. In that respect, it's similar to the Bradley, which however brings the TOW missile with it, which never hurts to have with you as long as you remember that your IFV is not a Kinderpanzer but actually relatively vulnerable.

Oh, and start with "Easy" difficulty (because "hard" actually is much harder), and don't be shy to use "low realism" at the beginning. You won't have to unlearn anything if you later switch to the higher realism settings, it's just going to take away a few HUD elements that help you maintain situational awareness a bit better.

Again, some of that went over my head. Damn n00b.

You are right about the M1 though. On my previous attempts at SB (Sean has been kind enough to give me a trial run before), I went with the M1 simply because it sounded familiar -- I'm not American so it wasn't a "patriotic" choice. I will try the Leopard 2A4 then. What can you say about the gun on that tank? And what are the differences of the other variants? I've read what I can from Wikipedia but again, over my head...

I know it is probably stupid to ask this, but when you disregard all other aspects, which tank has the best gun? I say best in terms of range and/or damage potential.

What is wrong with the T-72? Isn't that the older Russian tank (newer being the T-80)? Is it simply a "challenge" because it is an older-generation tank?

My settings is Difficult - Medium and Realism - High. I want all the bells and whistles though I could do with a "dumber enemy AI" at the moment so that my tactical mistakes won't be too deadly.

Well, it's not easy to answer the best gun question as ammo, optics, etc also factors into the final result. Against soviet armor any of the Leopard 2s or the M1A1 will be more than enough (note that the Challanger's 120mm fires weaker ammo, it works, but takes some getting used to). I wouldn't really worry about finding the best gun at this point. Tactics and skill will get you much further in most cases, but if you're wondering the Leopard 2E has the longer 120mm L55 (L = length in calibers, basically gun length is 120mm*55), which is my personal pick for "best gun". The M1A1 and the other Leopard 2s use the shorter version, the L44. Not a huge difference to worry about.

Most of the damage potential is going to come from how you use that tank. The best gun by itself is only going to get you so far.

The T-72 is old(but you can play against older enemy tanks), low tech, and much more quirky than the other tanks. Dynamic lead, thermal optics, and many other nice features of the other playable tanks aren't there. It'd be harder to pick up, not as user-friendly in my opinion, less forgiving, and a lot of things are unique to it and wouldn't carry over to the other playable vehicles. Where as if you start with something like the Leopard, it should be easy to pick up most of the other vehicles from there, it'll introduce you to a lot of common concepts. That's my two cents anyway.

Yeah, T-80 is newer.

Ammunition makes far more difference than 'gun'. The best KE ammunition from any of the playable tanks is better than the worst for (almost?) all ~ the possible exception being the 120mm L55 RMW fitted to the Leopardo 2E as this lacks the very early and ineffective APFSDS rounds.

The Challenger and T72 have 'quirky' FCS and lack some niceties required for accurate, quick engagements. Used well they should be effective, but are harder to use in a 'quick reaction' situation, particularly the T72 as it has less armour and no Thermal imaging.

UK Armour is the only UK-based virtual unit. Our website email forwarding seems to be on the blink at the moment so please email me direct at 'teejay@clara.co.uk'

I look forward to hearing from you

Best wishes
Tjay
C.O UK Armour.

Lol, yeah, I know a lot of other factors comes into play. Just like the idea of being strong enough to be able to damage opponents from range, hence this question. With modern armor, I guess this is a moot point, eh?

I'm going through the Leopard's tutorial now, but got one nagging Q --- how do you dig tank-sized foxholes? I see this on screenshots... can you place them yourself or are they "pre-placed" by mission builders?

Also, what's the deal with other non-MBT vehicles? Are they there simply for the sake of "completeness" or do they have a battlefield purpose as well? Specifically the infantry carriers, what can they do when faced with an MBT?

Tjay - email sent!

The hull-down dug-in positions are placed by mission editor (and sometimes are re-deployable in pre-mission planning phases).

IFV and APC primarily are battle-taxis used to move and deploy their infantry with less risk to small arms and artillery fragments. Their main weapon when used well is their dismounted infantry section, but some of the more modern IFV can project considerable firepower to long ranges (although with only modest protection and lethality against the front of an MBT, they should concentrate on very short engagements on flanks of MBT, or against enemy infantry carriers or infantry). Rapid firing autocannons can also be more effective as limited AAA weapons against helicopters.

They should be used as part of a combined arms team with MBT support whenever possible, but can accomplish much in close terrain with the infantry deployed on the ground, and the vehicles providing supporting fires from covered positions/ambush.


Although APFSDS rounds do lose penetration potential with range, this is usually far less than the accuracy losses, and to a reasonable level the penetration performance can be considered near constant (80-85% max at the useful range ~2.5km-3km), HEAT, HESH etc have constant performance over range, but can have lower performance against frontal armour of MBT.

At runtime?
You don't. You can create them in the mission editor, and make them "deployable" for the user in the planning phase (so he can shift the position and orientation).


Of course they have their role. Obviously any tank is the 800 pound gorilla in a pure ground fight, and if the environmental conditions in the chosen location of battle favor him and no grave mistakes are made, a tank force should come out of an engagement as the clear victor against any other homogeneous force of equal size.

But what good does you a 6.6m long gun tube if you're in an alley that is four meters wide? What's the point of being able to destroy an IFV at five kilometers range when you're in a thick forest where you can see only a few hundred meters or less? How do you kill seemingly weak and hapless infantry if you can't see them, because they hide inside of the buildings that restrict your field of view, your field of fire, and your freedom of maneuver?
What good is a gun range of four kilometers against a helicopter-launched anti tank missile of eight kilometer range?

There is no weapon that will always dominate all other weapons on the battlefield. If it existed, everybody would use only this and no other. Each piece of equipment, each branch of an Army has special capabilities that make it unique. The art of tactics is to coordinate the different units to maximize their strengths and to cover their (relative) weaknesses with other units that are especially strong in that area.
That's the whole, simple idea of "combined arms". If there's a helicopter threat, you need air defense units to protect you against them. Since the air defense units are usually vulnerable against ground threats, you need to protect them with a layered defense. Where you can't reach a target with direct fire, artillery is needed. Artillery depends on an uninterrupted supply chain. The trucks that are transporting the ammo are highly vulnerable. So a possible strategy against enemy artillery is to target the supply trucks. In order to get at them, you need to break through the enemy's defense line. That breakthrough is done with tanks, with (own) artillery, air support, and maybe also mechanized infantry. Once that you are through that line of defense, tanks are best to exploit a gap by quickly dashing into the rear area, wreaking havoc as long as there is no organized defense.

That's the whole trick in its bare simplicity. A lot is to be learned about each element. And learning is done by playing, and having fun while doing it. Hopefully.

Thanks for the info on foxholes. Main reason I ask about the other vehicles was that I thought I could get the IFV to dismount the infantry to dig a tank-sized fox-hole for me to hide in... and maybe put some wax and Armor All on some parts of the tank. And clean my treads with a toothbrush. Oh well.

Aside from UK Armour, does SimHQ have its own group that does co-op missions?

And is it just me or is the "P" key rather awkward as Dynamic Lead function? Going from CTRL (pinky) and SpaceBar (thumb) to P (index) and SpaceBar (thumb) is like doing finger gymnastics!

Have you tried the right mouse button for laser, and the middle mouse button for dynamic lead?

I bet that'll make things easier. Or try a joystick.

Hehe... you can do that? I've just been "following instructions" based on the tutorials.

Quick questions --- how come there is no tutorial for the Challenger? And how do you get the "outside view" again when playing? I can't seem to do this, only do gunner/TC/driver position, but not that "behind the tank" view. Last, which view is "best" or ideal for just moving from A to B? I'm not sure I can do a very good job as a TC, but I don't want to be in the gunner view the whole time, hence asking about the external view so I can admire my ride before it's blown to bits.

You may use any of the multiple controls that are stored (and can be customized) in the Controls dialog. Check it out.


Technically the Challenger isn't yet considered completely done. There's a very real danger that tutorials could become obsolete or misleading with later changes. The Chally as it is represents our best estimate based on what's publicly available information (which is very little). We hope that with a bit of feedback from UK tankers we can further improve our work.


F8


It's probably a matter of personal preference. I'd say, any position but the gunner or squad leader (for those IFVs that have this position modeled) is equally suitable. Of course they all offer their own distinct advantages and drawbacks. Try the different positions, I'm sure you'll develop a sense of what works best for you. If you can get yourself accustomed to using the commander's position, that would probably be best for multiplayer games where, if you don't occupy the commander's place, another player could jump into it and take control.


The only chance to learn it is by doing it.


That's a good idea, if you do it for the right reasons (=lack of situational awareness, tunnel vision, target fixation). However,


Even though I suspect that it was meant tongue in cheek, this is a somewhat popular mistake of some. It could be an indicator that your attention is focused on your own vehicle, when you should spend most of your attention on the anticipation of emerging threats, and being on the lookout for them. This is probably the prime directive for a tank commander (and platoon leader) in combat - being focused on what the enemy might do next, where it might make its appearance in your field of view and your area of responsibility, what the best terrain features are to help you to maneuver to the place where you need to be, to mask your movement, and your presence.
Looking at your own tank won't help you a single bit with any of these tasks.

Thanks for the heads up Ssnake. I got a TM Warthog and Saitek pedals which I am wondering how I will map stuff to to make it easier. I also have VAC and I'm thinking of mapping the formation commands to that.

Re: outside view. I'm not sure if it's the tutorial or the instant action mission, but I've pressed all the F-keys and it didn't work. Need to try again.

The last comment was meant to be funny, but it's true as well. Obviously I don't spend ALL my time on the external view, but I feel it is the best view that gives a wide view of the surroundings, helps me "orient" myself properly. Pity there is no NVG view except for the gunner and for some fancy modes for the TC.

Oh, in some tutorials the external observer (or other crew positions) are disabled, so you concentrate on what's the point of the specific tutorial.

WRT to the controllers that you have:

1. SB Pro only recognizes the "Preferred device" (which you can set in the advanced properties of the device properties; in earlier Windows version, set the controller ID #1)
2. There's two ways to utilize a game controller. You can use the direct Controls dialog box/configuration interface to try and assign a certain button to a certain function.
   Alternatively you use the programming interface of the controller itself to trigger certain macros that you can define there. The latter option is usually more complicated, but offers a wider range of functions. The former is probably "good enough" for pretty much all your SB Pro needs.
3. Personally, I think that many of the flight stick joysticks are way too stiff to allow successful fine control when in the gunner's place. But again, that's strictly spoken from a Leopard 2 pampered tanker's point of view. In other vehicles the gunner's control handle sometimes is very stiff (ASLAV-25, for example), so it ultimately boils down to the question whether YOU find it suitable, and that's best answered with a bit of practice.

I actually spend a decent amount of time in the Gunners Primary Sight (GPS) when it's a low vis kind of situation. Having the thermal is reallllly handy at night.

-Jenrick

Yes... but at the same time, your field of view is severely restricted. You see everything in your 5° cone, but nothing of the remaining 355°. It's easy to forget that.

Gunny and I have done some co-op, and I'm hoping to do more... usually platoon size, US equiptment, but willing to do others too... feel free to join in, were on TS, when playing.

Yes but when?

Hooked up with the UK Armour boys last night and had a fun training mission. Can't wait to park my tank and start screaming "pew pew!!"

Gunny and i should be connecting around 11 AM Eastern tomorrow (Sat) thats what 4 PM GWT... just FYI.