the only Jet sim I've played so far is DCS A10c and I gave up on that because I'm just not interested in spending more time learning how to navigate the heads up display than actually flying, dogfighting and doing the fun stuff.

So I'm just curious if Falcon 4.0 BMS can be enjoyed without all of the complexity of menu navigation and turning radio knobs and such.

Not bms, no - but if that's the kind of air combat you want then I would recommend the Strikefighters 2 series. Jump in and go - but still a challenge to hit the targets and get out alive - but you can set the difficulty and there is a huge amount of freeware add-on aircraft, campaigns etc at CombatAce, too.

Not expensive, either - look up the Third Wire section of this forum

Well I was hoping for Falcon because I always hear a lot about it's campaign mode and how great it was. Are there no options to make certain functions automatic or anything like that?

Unfortunately, the thing that makes Falcon great IS the study sim part. Myself, I've not gone into a campaign yet... the UIs alone will drown you out with all the info available!!

I hope that does not discourage you, it is simply the truth. And when you see what "reading material" Falcon BMS has to offer, well, let's just say that the DCS manual was in a better state!

The best way to go about this is to join a virtual squadron that will teach you the ropes... once you get the hang of things, well, you'll appreciate that the "beauty" of BMS goes beyond just "eye candy."

[Obi-Wan]This is not the sim you are looking for...[/Obi-Wan]

Falcon AF is a lot better for what you're looking for.

Not sure BMS has the option but I believe DCS A-10C and Falcon4 Allied Force have a simplified avionics mode which turns a study-sim into a beginner-friendly game.

You know, the "study sim" parts aren't that bad really. It's very possible to easily learn what you need to learn to fly the BARCAP missions in the regular campaigns. Once you start to get those under your belt, you can slowly start doing some of the more complex missions.

There are some great videos that make the process of learning how to use the game much, much easier:
Krause's BMS tutorial videos

For some reason BMS's Data Cartridge scares me. LOL

That's why I stick with FreeFalcon6

I jumped right in and deliver bombs with ccip and do ok air to air with the aim-120 and sidewinders. Get the manual on your ipad or second computer and read what you have to. I just think it's amazing to fly around in an alive world. I fly a few hours per month and could never remember all the study stuff even if I wanted to.

-C-

The data cartridge is not so hard, and also not so 100% necessary at the beginning - what I find complicated is that the controls are tailored towards the real stick layout (i.e. four hat switches) and thus make little sense on the keyboard. It also reflects in the manual where TMG_UP or whatever that hatname is used instead of an actual key...

That's because TMS up for instance is used in the manuals more like a function name than a key press. You can assign it to whatever you want, the function it preforms will still be TMS up. What I mean is that in the real jet its called TMS up as well, not drop bombs or whatever it might do (yeah it doesn't drop the bombs), mainly because these switches have multiple functions.

The data cartridge thing is just stupid. It is blank by default, which means you get blank MFDs if you go to A-A or A-G mode --- why didn't they just put a proper "default" data cartridge which the pilot can modify to suit later?

redpaino, this "elephant" can be eaten one small bite at a time. The scope of the sim alone means that there is so much to learn it could take you years before you know the majority of them. However, to ENJOY this sim, you don't really have to know very much. What's your poison? A-G CCIP bombing? CCRP? Laser-guided munitions? Or do you prefer A-A BVR fights? Or A-A knife fights? Pick one thing you want to learn and do it.

The only downside to this is that the more limited your skillset is, the less missions you get to fly in a campaign. And with all that is going on in a campaign, you might get "lost" in all that as well. Solution? Custom missions and TEs.

I would advise against Kraus' tutorials though... I don't believe that learning all those errors is a good way to start your Falcon learning experience.

What is AG CCIP bombing? What's CCRP? Laser guided munitions? AA BVR fights? AA Knife fights?.....

WHAT?

the reason I'm not into the study part is because I play many different games on a regular basis, I'm not the type of simmer that bought a PC just to play flight sims. Currently I play Rise of flight, occasionally Cliffs of dover and a dozen regular old games, I just don't have the interest or time to invest in one game alone for months on end before I even know how to take off and shoot something down.

So clearly this isn't for me.

Ah, I beg to differ. What you learn in Falcon, you may already know... or at least the basics.

AG = air-to-ground, aka mud moving, bombing, tank plinking, etc.
AA = air-to-air

CCIP and CCRP are different bombing modes. CCIP is "old-style" bombing (manual bombing mode) wherein you wait until the pipper is on the target then press the pickle button to release. CCRP is "assisted" bombing whereby you lock your target either by radar or targeting pod and the computer gives you HUD cues to fly and the computer releases the bomb at the appropriate time. Unlike manual iron sights though, the flight computer in both modes helps the pilot, ie in CCIP (continously computed impact point), the computer shows you where your bomb will hit (pipper) if you release at that moment, so you maneuver and wait until the target is under the pipper, pickle, and the bomb comes off --- but still the computer was helping you there by showing you where your bomb is calculated to hit. Much more accurate than simple iron sights simply because the computer accounts for airspeed, dive angle, height, etc. etc.

Surely you've heard of laser guided munitions? Simple dumb bombs with a laser seeker added on the nose and some controllable fins added to the back end --- you can release from high altitude and the bomb will find a laser-designated target, home in on it, and boom! Precision munitions!

BVR is beyond visual range --- engagements done with medium-range (or long-range) missiles with targets designated via radar.

Knife fights is when you merge and dance around in the air in a struggle to get angles and get a shot at the enemy. Basically what you do in RoF/CoD with machine guns, only in Falcon you can use AIM-9 Sidewinders too and guns. "Knife fight" is a term used because it is close-in fighting.




****************************

Still reading? Good. That was one bite

IME, all the acronyms are really confusing at first. I remember when I started out in DCS A10C. We have the UFC and the CDI, marking the targets as SPI and making sure we have the proper SOI. And clicking DMS Up Short and China Hat Forward Long... confusing! But all I really needed was to find out what they are, and using them over and over made them familiar, and soon enough I learned enough to enjoy DCS A10C!

This is just like tabletop RPG games. Better to get a new player gaming and interested and hooked, then show him the manual but let him read just a few "essential" pages.... I know a lot of guys who said "no" just because they thought they had to read and memorize the whole player's manual.

In any case, redpiano, if you ARE interested to learn even just one aspect of the sim (bombing? refuelling? air-to-air?), I would be glad to teach you what I know. Do not let the words "study sim" and the numerous acronyms intimidate you. Falcon is one of the best sims available, and it has that reputation for a reason!

Are there at least in game tutorials ala. DCS a10c? That made learning what little I learned about that game much easier.

I'm mostly interested in air to air combat, dogfights, knife fights, whatever they're called in these parts.

Is BMS at least easy to obtain and install? And is there any place to buy and download Falcon instead of using a CD? Do I need a specific version or copy of Falcon?

If I can get the main game for rather cheap I'd be fine with just trying it out.

That's the downside of Falcon BMS. The old F4AF/F4 tutorials have been "ported over" to BMS so you can do them if you wish, however, if you use these tutorials with the old manuals (F4AF or F4), things can get confusing because the manuals tell you to expect one thing but this is usually not the case as to what you can see in the sim. And no, there are no "interactive tutorials" either. DCS A10C has spoiled us!

There are "tutorial scripts" but again these are in varying levels of "complete-ness." The rampstart script is excellent, but the others leave a lot to be desired.

This is the biggest downside of Falcon BMS. I don't mind a study sim, but BMS does not make it easy. It isn't exactly a newbie-friendly sim, and the official BMS forums don't offer much help either. The manuals are confusing and expect you to have knowledge of previous iterations of Falcon or BMS. Red Dog has recently come up with a "Dash-1" manual that reads like the DCS systems portions of the manual and is a very good source of info, but aside from that.... well, let's just say there is vast room for improvement. Again, the reason for pushing newcomers to join a virtual squadron that can show them the ropes, or fly with someone who does.

Regarding install, BMS is free to download (the install process is confusing too!) but you need the original Falcon 4 CD (will not work with AF!) as the installer will look for the .exe file.

"It isn't Falcon if you don't have to do the install dance."


If you are willing to go through all that headache, there is a bright light at the end of the tunnel though. I find Falcon 4 to be great for air-to-air. Falcon has a "feature" called smart scaling which basically makes things a bit bigger than they are in real life so that it is easier to spot. Finding ground targets, heck, finding your flight lead for a rejoin is much, much, much, much, much, much easier in BMS than it is in DCS! Air-to-Air is more fun too, even compared to Flaming Cliffs 2. Amazing how simple "I can find my target and maneuver for a shot" is made easier because of smart scaling. Obviously this is important since closure rates and engagement distances are much bigger/faster/further than in older WWII sims.

Alright well if you can direct me to the manual and download site for BMS, I'll pickup the CD and at least give it a shot.

Falcon is still 40$ lol

Ah, the RESET button loads the defaults? Great! Didn't know about that, but too late now! Do new users still have to do this or is this done automatic with Update 2?

Okay I get that, but I think even on the Keychart (can't look it up now) it's the same. Sometimes I just want to look up quickly how to drop a godamn bomb... then I have to do a mental translation to the keyboard button actually assigned.

I see the problem with different functions in different modes, though. I guess what could be nice is a multi-page keychart grouped by modes, so you'd get an A/G main mode with the standard key functions, maybe multi-colored for different sub modes.

Or I suppose I stop being lazy and could just make the effort to get the Cougar Win7-upgraded... with a 16-Replica Stick it would make a ton of sense.

The Data cartridge is another example of stuff that didn't filter down to me either... I set up my own from a youtube vid, but having an initial default assignment would make a ton of sense.

It's truly a sim for Advanced Addicts and clearly geared at people having been with F4.0 for a while.

I guess my main stumbling block also always is that I have a quite clear "workflow" ingrained from the F/A-18E by Janes and in FS2004 (VRS). The concepts of these two jets are surprisingly different in many key points.

Pages 30-34 in the manual though that one still uses the F-16 HOTAS button names. The more I think about this, with all the different keyfiles in F4 and most people using HOTAS systems and those who don't making their own key bindings... not to mention promoting realism... it would really be a mess if they tried to use keystrokes. It seems to me there is no other way to go about this properly than with the real HOTAS buttons. That's what other sims like DCS do as well BTW, they might include the default keystroke as well, but the emphasis is usually on using the proper control names.



You really should, because it really does. Its almost like flying a different jet, really unlocks a lot of 'hidden' potential. Lets put it this way, fighter jets avionics are developed with the HOTAS in mind, and the HOTAS is developed with the avionics in mind. One is made for the other, and you'll never get 100% out of them if you only use one. Using a different HOTAS which will not match 100% is bearable, not using a HOTAS at all, not so much. Been there as well. The difference the Cougar made compared to a simple joystick was for me like the difference TIR makes. You can fly, but you have to work around those things and your performance is handicapped.



As someone said above, hitting the RESET button will load default settings. Why those are not there to begin with, I don't know.



Well its made by people who have been around F4 for more than a while... I guess sometimes its hard to judge what would make sense to a newcomer or not. The new all-inclusive manual should help a lot when its done, meanwhile the current manuals cover pretty much everything, they're just all over the place, and the community is very helpful.

The reason it is easier to simply say TMS Up or TMS Down instead of the keyboard key combo is because people can change the key combo for the TMS Up function. My CTRL+Up might do something different from your CTRL+Up. So it is easier for me to tell you what functions I use to do something but of course you will have to "translate" that to how you mapped out your functions on your stick. If we are both working with the same gear, ie, TM Warthog, it is easier since I can just tell you "it's that hat switch under the red pickle button," assuming of course that you've set your WH to realistic layout as well.

An example of how key combo naming is not ideal is the F4AF manual. I have used it to "re-learn" Falcon BMS, but everything is screwed up now. IIRC, the F1-F4 keys controlled the radar modes but they are now assigned to countermeasure program modes... if it was written using instructions of accessing various OSBs on the MFDs or the Dogfight switch + TMS buttons to navigate to the proper radar mode, it will work as well in AF as in BMS.

BMS has been geared towards people who have been playing F4 for a while, yes. It mostly assumes you are coming in from F4AF or some other flavor of Falcon.... if you are a new pilot coming in from scratch or transitioning from DCS A10C, well, it'll be a bit tougher. Do-able, but tough. Still, the sim makes it all worth it.

Again, it is no secret that Falcon is one heck of a study sim. DCS A10 had a lot going for it, and that was a dedicated CAS aircraft. The F-16 is a multi-role fighter which can do CAS, SEAD, CAP, OCA, etc. etc. so naturally there will be more to study. Another fact is that it is not written with beginners in mind. But this does not make it any less of a sim, it just makes the "topic" much more interesting. No way around the "study" part but the nice bit is that you can always go at your own pace.

A bit of advice. Find someone to show you the ropes. Falcon can be intimidating, but you can speed up the learning curve dramatically if you can fly with someone with experience. It is also a lot of fun that way.

Or better yet, join a virtual squadron, as I've mentioned above. The decent ones should have a "training program" that will bring you up to speed quite quickly.

Yep. Excellent idea.

You should look into flaming cliffs 2,the systems are pretty easy to learn and there is even a game mode

I'm with BigDOg4215 on this one...

He said he was interested in the Falcon campaign mode and such, whereas FC2 only has scripted missions... If flying and blowing things up in arcade-y third-person was the goal, then yes, I guess FC2 would work. So would DCS A10C (it has an arcade mode too!), HAWX, or even Ace Combat on the PS3/PSP.

Don't complain about hawx is all my life that I'm waiting to face overwhelming enemy forces with and airplane loaded with 50+ missiles and unlimited cannon rounds (and don't tell me that is not fun) . Seriously BMS learning curve is a wall (where i bang my head often) but when it comes to why someone would fly a simulated warbird immediate fun is not the reason i spend more time designing panels and tweaking my cockpit parts than actually flying (I'm an happy grease monkey but a bad pilot).

As Ice said the only thing that interests me is the campaign mode. If it had a visual training guide like DCS A10c/P51/Blackshark 2 I would be happy to play it but it doesn't seem to so I'll probably stick with the DCS series. I did download Falcon 4.0 just to try BMS, I don't think I want to take that plunge with no training mode so I'll likely uninstall it.

Why giving up so soon? Like I said, there is no training but joining a vSquadron will give you better training than even DCS did!

I'm not into multiplayer and teamspeak etc. is the problem.

If there's any quick start guides out there just to get the engine started, flying and some explanation on weapon systems I would be willing to stick with it. I found a video series but I would prefer PDF's or forum threads.

No need for a tutorial on how to start the engine. Unless you want to learn the 10-20 minute ramp start, your engine will always be running when you spawn in.

Ahhh, startup is my favorite part of flight sims!

There is Red Dog's checklist... should be in the Docs/Checklists & Cockpit Diagrams/F-16 Checklists folder. Filename is Main Checklists.pdf. Or you can do the startup tutorial with the training scripts, but turn off TIR before you do it so that the script can "point" your view to the panels you should be looking at.

Fair enough, but it's hard for someone to teach you via forums You can simply do multiplayer for your training, but I don't see why you prefer AI wingmen over human ones. Remember each time you wished you could ask your wingman for better support or help? Or you wanted him to do something but there was no command for it? Or wished he wasn't so show-off during aerial refuelling? Go with a Human wingman -- better in every way. In fact, that's one reason I never played any of the DCS missions myself. Stupid AI wingman would spot targets up to 15nm but wouldn't really tell you more. Human wingman could share SPI with you and stuff.

Plus gone are the days wherein you fly with someone and they warp all over the place (happens sometimes in DCS, but not BMS). I do formation flying with the guys I fly with and it is smooth as butter. Well, at least until the flak and SAMs start flying!

Agreed. The beauty of BMS is how easy is to fly a campaign with other people. If it's been a single player campaign you can fly it cooperatively. If it's been a cooperative campaign you can play it single player. Simply amazing.

Don't know if is still valid for BMS but on the "Old" f4 the heavy technicalities could be skipped, IE you don't have time /will to learn ramp up you can start on the runway with jet already powered up all you have to do is ask tower permission to take off.
Weapons systems learning curve is related to complexity of the weapon itself.

Yep, you could start on the ramp (all systems go!) or even on the runway if you wanted to, though the startup procedure itself is easy enough once you do it a couple of times anyway.

No way to skip the switchologies needed for weapon employment though.

Well I'll hold onto it, I don't have much time these next couple weeks as I have guests over. I'm in Oregon(western US) so getting online with you -Ice might be a challenge but I'd be fine with hopping on some time.

I started flying Falcon 4.0 in '98 but it wasn't until 2001 when I was on extended sick leave from work that I got into online flying with the Freebirds, I learned more in the first few weeks of training with them than I had in the previous few years.
I still have my pilots certificate from them
The first multiplayer mission I was allowed to take part in was awesome, it was a multi-layered airfield attack with CAP SEAD and strike. Takeoff, navigation and finaly the strike on the airfield following in after my lead aircraft had layed down his bombs on the runway and then the bugging out as aircraft were scrambled from the nearby airfield hearing the CAP taking them on over the radio as we exited the area at treetop hight to our final landing at our airbase with zero losses. It was so much better than playing alone.

I still have all my training files and powerpoint slides for the course on a CD Rom

Otherwise you would be playing HAWX/ace combat

Is it much harder then AF? is the whole ramp start in the new (and older) sims slightly hyped, I did my 2nd AF startup totally from memory. I did forget to arm the ejections seat tho

In other news: I'd die to play some multiplayer, unfortunately circumstances don't allow it atm...

Not really - there are differences - more things to do if you follow the checklist like BITs etc and I load up the data cart - plus you do the whole thing in the 3D pit - the 2D pit is history.

Not really "harder," but different. Flipping a switch on is the same no matter what sim you're playing

Flipping switches for startup might be interesting in FSX or DCS but in BMS action awaits in the sky, so the startup is just a waste of time. I do startups ocasionally so i don't forget the flow, but when in MP or campaign, i skip straigh to taxiway.

True. Startup is great for learning the layout of the cockpit and is cool to do, but I've only done it a number of times both in Falcon and in DCS.... enough time to know it by heart, but never really "needed" it even on "serious" MP flights with "semi-hardcore" flyers.

A nice quick shutdown is a nice way of wrapping up a good mission though, and for that I try to park my jet in a "proper" parking area, open the cockpit (fresh air, aaahhh!), and do a quick shutdown.

Don't waste your time on Allied Force. It's an unfinished product and the diffulty of the hardest parts of its "sim" aspects are no less complicated. The most bothersome part in any of these is ramp start up and no one's going to force you to waste time doing that. I don't. Just a matter of a checklist and time, which I'd rather not spend just flipping switches. Does nothing for me. BMS is really not that difficult (aside from having to pre-lock to ground stabilize AG radar, heh heh?) and there are plenty of us that will help you if you need it. Actually plenty more who are better at it than I am. And Open Falcon and BMS are finally the first versions of F4 that have halfway useful missile kinematics. It's worth the effort. Every time you go up or fly with people you learn something new. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I will say you do need something like the Warthog or X65F, though, to have a (here comes a pun) handle on it. The X52 is possible, but you need to utilize the pinkie shifter and maybe even all three modes. Once you get the hang of the TMS, DMS, and CMS hats, and the cursor button, it becomes second nature. There are a lot of switches and buttons, but the avionics are only about as complicated as Janes FA-18 (still probably the king on modern jet avionics). And heck, I still have difficulty using the ILS and TCAN frequencies. Nothing wrong with trial and error. I learn and remember best by doing, so there's no harm in just jumping in... in spite of what some drunk, anal, or insulting naysayers might want to insinuate. Screw 'em and have fun. You'll be amazed you waited so long... and astounded how you could ever deal with Allied Force's broken TWS mode ;-)

And I don't blame you for not being excited by DCS stuff. Very boring missions and environment in Blackshark.

According to Art of War:
If you know your enemies and know yourself (F-16 in this case), you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always get blown away.

That's EXACTLY how it is in BMS.

IMHO that kills the immersion (for me at least and others I fly with).

I also find that many of those who do not ramp, CANNOT ramp, which is not encouraging as to their level of competence in this (v) jet.

Allied Force is junk, always was.

Carry on.

Well, if you are flying a super-serious type of game, with proper brevity, tasking, and maybe even meet 1 hour prior to flight time to properly brief and plot targets, then yes, NOT doing a ramp start is an immersion killer.

For those of us who can only spare an hour or two of flight time, a 10-minute faff around before flight is enough, then we make the most of our time in the air.

However, the ability of being able to ramp is not a required skill in this sim, but is helpful as an additional immersion aspect or as an orientation to the cockpit and the function of the switches --- as you'll be throwing almost all of them!

BMS is worth every bit of effort it takes to put into it. Actually flying online with a squadron in a PvP persistent campaign that changes each day based on the actions of you, allies and enemies is something indescribably awesome that has to be experienced. Don't give up, keep at it.

Wow this thread is still up huh lol.

Well I'm going to install BMS again after formatting my PC, between learning the A10c or the F16 I think I'd rather play BMS especially with the persistent campaign.

Any recommendations for learning the computer systems, how to get my HOTAS setup and everything would be much appreciated.

Which hotas do you have at home? In the BMS forums there are a lot of profiles avaiable.

That would be SUPER helpful. I have a CH fighterstick, Saitek throttle quadrant and saitek rudder pedals.

It took me long long hours of trial and error to configure my joystick setup.
I am using a Microsoft Force Feedback 2 with a Saitek x52 throttle, so I couldn't find any good setup, had to do it myself.
Another thing is, since I am still standing in the valley of noobs looking up on the learning curve, my preferred button setup still changes after every flight.

I have also the fighterstick. Easy to assign because: http://bmswiki.com/index.php?title=HOTAS

But your throttle could be a problem. I use the saitek-x45 throttle. Fits very well.
Maybe you could asssign some trottle functions on the ch stick via modificator.

Yeah I'm trying to get my hands on a CH throttle, in the mean time I think I'll be fine, I downloaded a profile for the fighterstick so I can at least play around with dogfights.