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#3601592 - 07/04/12 05:27 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]
Hpasp Online   grunt
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Registered: 12/31/09
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Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Hello guys, your findings are awesome thumbsup

PS: regarding the launch photo, there is RSSI of 40dB. It was S-200D, but is it possible for Tu-154 in that distance?


If you check the picture...
Click to reveal..


... you can see the following:

- 40dB signal strength.
- 500km display range. (Target is pretty close)
- H indicator is set to 5km altitude. (Target between 1~2km altitude)
- Target is in destruction zone, closer than 38km (against low targets).
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#3601596 - 07/04/12 05:39 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: PLCC]
Hpasp Online   grunt
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Originally Posted By: PLCC
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Yes, but why missile flew this way when should be locked to the target 32km far? Plamja uploads flight program selection to missile, so I do not understand it. Especially when I take launch photo into account - 40db for a (large) target 250km far?


The graph was made by the Interstate Aviation Committee. The 03a md-expert findings20100521.pdf document contains testimony from court expert witnesses refuting the IAC's claims. They state that the missile trajectory, in the horizontal (p. 17) and vertical planes, does not correspond to how the 5V28 actually operates.


That is correct.
The missile of the S-200VE is going up with 48degree to 40km altitude, then slowly (with Mach6) glides down.

This graph is rather depicts the ballistic path of an S-300PM missile.



Edited by Hpasp (07/04/12 05:43 AM)
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#3601597 - 07/04/12 05:42 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: JWNoctis]
Hpasp Online   grunt
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Originally Posted By: JWNoctis
So...If what they said is true, then whatever's left, however unlikely, has now become more than likely:

The missile, albeit unguided and somehow still armed in a highly unlikely combination of events, still managed to get to the wrong place at the wrong time.

Or slightly more likely, someone else has illuminated the Tu-154 at some time during the missile's flight. Or the Tu-154 has somehow pulled the speed gate from the drone onto itself.

...God knows.


Negative.
nope

The target should have illuminated by the same RPC where the missile belonged.
Without the illumination, the radio proxy fuse of the missile is not working.
(its also semi active)
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Hpasp
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While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3601603 - 07/04/12 06:20 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]
Alien_MasterMynd Offline
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Registered: 04/27/12
Posts: 241
Loc: Czech Republic
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


... you can see the following:

- 40dB signal strength.
- 500km display range. (Target is pretty close)
- H indicator is set to 5km altitude. (Target between 1~2km altitude)
- Target is in destruction zone, closer than 38km (against low targets).

Yes, so I do not understand what happened :-(

It's what I wrote on a previous page:
Yes, we all should know the missile climbs to the height, and then slowly descends to optimize energy loss and is heading to the target. And probably above 20km it is only some approximation since that radar is limited to 20km in height. This is not a question.
The question is why missile flew with a long distance flight program when the target should be 32km far. And the missile had to fly using this program because in the other case it would not (under any ciscumstances) get that far (about its maximum range).

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#3601604 - 07/04/12 06:27 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]
piston79 Offline
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Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 873
There are a lot of denials of S-200 kill shot version in the .pdf mentioned couple posts ago even experts told that distance (~250 km), the missile should miss with hundred meters....

By the way an offtopic link on russian, but it is good to knew it:

http://hubara-rus.ru/kavkaz.html

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#3601609 - 07/04/12 06:38 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]
Alien_MasterMynd Offline
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Loc: Czech Republic
Why should miss with a such distance? Since it has semiactive homing, it should be guided to target (almost) independently of its distance to radar.

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#3601611 - 07/04/12 06:53 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]
piston79 Offline
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Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Why should miss with a such distance? Since it has semiactive homing, it should be guided to target (almost) independently of its distance to radar.


Because of the huge RCS of Tu-154, it's return signal goes outside the GSN antena and AS is going off (if I got it right with mine ukrainian...).

HEY, IS THERE AN UKRAINIAN????? HELP, PLEASE!!!! rant-on-off

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#3601621 - 07/04/12 07:40 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]
Alien_MasterMynd Offline
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Registered: 04/27/12
Posts: 241
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I translated bits of information using google and there is this information: VR-3 had doppler speed of 250m/s and Tu-154 about 130-140m/s.
So it is impossible to track both of them simultaneously (either by RPC or GSN), because RPC has bandwidth of 200Hz and GSN 400Hz (250m/s is 12,5kHz and 130m/s is about 6,5kHz so the difference is about 6kHz and it obviously do not fall into 200Hz or 400Hz range).
But what is not stated there what if the target is still illuminated.
12:42 VR-3 is destroyed by S-300PS.
S-200 crew may not know it and their AS is lost. So they try to reacquire it, they see the Tu-154's return (as I remeber it was about 14 degrees away in azimuth). They lock it, the are in a hurry, they do not want to lose the missile and fail the test.
So they can ignore RSSI indicator, but the required change in distance is something they should see.
So GSN is looking for the target, wide beam mode should see signal from Tu-154 and it goes back to AS mode.

This sounds reasonable, BUT - missile is not on the trajectory allowing such a long flight. So it is unexplainable again :-(

PS: their P-18 indicator was set to 90km distance so they did not know what is going on outside this range. But why they had a P-18 instead of a P-14? It does not have any effect on situation, but I would like to know.

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#3601658 - 07/04/12 09:35 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]
Hpasp Online   grunt
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Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
...
PS: their P-18 indicator was set to 90km distance so they did not know what is going on outside this range. But why they had a P-18 instead of a P-14? It does not have any effect on situation, but I would like to know.


Moving the P-18 into a temporary firing range position is much less pain, compared to the P-14.
(P-18 range was more than the target drone)

It would also mean, that the "X" screen was black during the engagement...
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup

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#3601679 - 07/04/12 10:20 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]
Alien_MasterMynd Offline
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Registered: 04/27/12
Posts: 241
Loc: Czech Republic
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Moving the P-18 into a temporary firing range position is much less pain, compared to the P-14.
(P-18 range was more than the target drone)

It would also mean, that the "X" screen was black during the engagement...


Thanks.

The latter is obvious thumbsup

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