What is the main difference between Scenery Detail "4" and Scenery Detail "5" ???

I know it drops my FPS by about 10 FPS using "5" versus "4", but I can not really tell what the main difference in the game is that is causing the drop in FPS using "5".

Is it the distance that trees appear in the distance or what ???

Thanks;
Panama Red

When Phase III was first released,the CPU's available then created some unexplainable video anamolies, real strange effects, those ATI's had 3" wide black stripes that weren't instintaneous,they appeared without warning after a few weeks. And always the same cure worked, turn the terrain to 4 and everything was fine. So put on 5, but down the road if you encounter OH SH!TS, back it down to 4

Uncleal:
I'm just a little confused by your answer. I still do not understand by your answer just what is the difference between "4" and "5" in the Scenery Detail Setting.

I know it makes a 10 FPS difference, but you have still not answered my original question as to what make the 10 FPS difference between the two.

It's more detailed, the scenery goes out farther as well too. But as evidenced by the fact that you can't really notice the difference in graphical quality, most people just run things on 4 and don't suffer any FPS penalty.

I see it as a Between a Rock and a hard place, you now know why, and you know the solution as well. Yet still you want more

Keep in mind that the CFS3 engine is DirectX 8 (8.12, I think), the first DirectX version to allow programmable pixel shaders. FWIW a Pixel Shader is a graphics function that calculates effects on a per-pixel basis. Depending on resolution, millions of pixels may need to be rendered, lit, shaded, and colored for each frame, at 60 frames per second. That in turn creates a tremendous computational load, especially for surface detail. Some early Microsoft flight sim products bragged about the number of "meters per pixel" of ground scenery, and it wasn't until DirectX 10 that Microsoft was able to claim "1 meter per pixel" for it's flight sims.

As Uncle Al mentions, early ATI cards, and nVidia cards, as well, even if they supported DirectX 8 pixel shading, struggled with OFF scenery settings on high. That's still a problem, even with modern cards due to the huge computational load (CPU and GPU) imposed by high scenery settings. This load increases dramatically near airfields, in large furrballs, and over the fromtlines due to the number of objects that must be rendered with high surface detail.

It's always been my impression that the scenery setting in OFF increases the demand for pixel shading over a longer distance, and the number of ground objects that must be rendered grows geometrically (not completely sure about how it works...developers chime in here....). A lower scenery setting doesn't negatively effect the visuals all that much, since the much of the rendered detail is far in front of you, and if definitely reduces the lags one can experience in furrballs, over airfields, and at the front. A higher scenery setting is largely wasted when you are at altitude, because you are rendering details that you may no longer be able to see clearly at height.

and if you really just hate seeing "barren" terrain in the far distance with no scenery covering it, you can always try lowering the distance that the Fog starts. I do.

Hellshade

BirdDogICT:
Thank you. That is exactly the detailed explanation I was looking for as to the difference between "4" and "5".

Any idea how to stop the white jaggies that appear when I turn my head?
I have an nvidea card, my settings are all set to 4.
Which one do I need to lower to stop these jaggies showing?.. thank you for any advice..

It sounds like a video card memory problem. Try setting your Terrain Detail and Scenery Detail back to "3" and see what happens. If it disappears, then try Scenery Detail to "4" and test again. Last, set Terrain Detail to "4" and test.

I currently have a ATI 6970 vedio card with 3GB of memory and I do not use above "3" on Terrain Detail because I can see FPS hit at "4", so using a "4" is not worth it to me.

When I last used an ATI 4890 video card with only 1 GB memory, going above a "3" in Terrain Detail caused all sorts of terrain visual anamolies, while a "3" worked perfectly fine.

If you look in your cfs3configdatabase file located in the root directory of your OFF install you can see all the settings for each of the five different levels. For example,


//////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// Visibility
//
//////////////////////////////////////////////
// 40 miles
PropertySet = "Max Visibility 1"
BackClipDist = 64374
FogStartDist = 64374
break

// 50 miles
PropertySet = "Max Visibility 2"
BackClipDist = 80467
FogStartDist = 80467
break

// 60 miles
PropertySet = "Max Visibility 3"
BackClipDist = 96561
FogStartDist = 96561
break

// 70 miles
PropertySet = "Max Visibility 4"
BackClipDist = 112654
FogStartDist = 112654
break

// 80 miles
PropertySet = "Max Visibility 5"
BackClipDist = 128748
FogStartDist = 128748

Thanks for the advice chaps, will test this later

MajorMagee:

The sawtooth effect is a lack of enough video memory had it happen to me twice, first was in Phase II was running ( cat's pajamas then ) a factory overclocked 8600 complete with Zalman fan 256mb DDR3

Great picture, just don't move your head. . . Put in a much tamer 8600 512mb DDR2, the picture wasn't as chrisp, but the Jaggies were gone.

Next time was a GTX260 896mb DDR3 Couldn't afford more card. So I just moved my head slower, that worked most times, except in combat

Now a GTX480 1500mb DDR5. . Think I'll never see them again

In OFF Phase 3 (Between and Hell and "Hat in the Ring!"):

Scenery slider increases the density of all scenery objects, trees, houses, etc. i.e. more of them and more dense patches. They don't go further out from slider 4 to 5. Between 1-4 it does mean they go further out to the horizon.

If you do not see a difference leave it on 4 of course. There is just a few percent extra 8% or something more 4 to 5.
Different people look for different things.

Terrain slider higher resolution tiles to further out- CFS3 uses rings of detail basically. Often looking directly down you will see super high res etc at higher settings.

Note they are totally different to CFS3.

I'm running a GTX 570.. can run most stuff more or less maxed out.. but apparently not in this title. Testing now!

Polovski:
Thank you. This helps in setting the sliders and what they do per FPS cost.

Off hand I'd say you can, if you check out the home page it says 1024mb of video memory is recommended when running wide open. It works for my GTX480, but I'm running a plain vanilla OFF

I've always said I'm doing the testing of the mods, but there was no proof till today

Well, if I stick the terrain detail up more than 3 I get that really bad jaggy tearing.. not good, so had to put it back to 3..

I say did you try lessening the Object density in workshop then bring the slider up checking your FPS along the way

I have 5 settings with sliders in workshop after I have hit the graphics button..

Aircraft detail.
Terrain detail.
Scenery detail.
Effects quality.
Cloud quality.

where is the object density please..?

You have gone to far. Those sliders are in the Graphics Config setting, the "Ground Object Density" is on the regular Workshop screen above the grey Graphics Config button. It has 3 settings, Low, Medium, High, and default is normally Medium.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but if you didn't know to find the object density, you might be running the Default setting all along which could be why you deemed it needed to install all those mods from the beginning.

PS . . I run it on High with 60 FPS

With My XP machine it was on Low with 35 FPS

Like 2 seperate games, which is why I made that statement

Ah right.. I knew where the 'Ground Object Density' setting is, and had it set on 'medium' from the start.. You mentioned a slider and I couldn't see one for it.. thought that was what you were talking about.

Uncleal:
I'm a little confused again. You have mentioned three time above about Trooper117 using "Mods" and implying it effected his Terrain Details or Scenery Details.

So a couple of questions:
(1) what mods is he using (since I do not see him mentioning any mods) and
(2) what mods out there effect either the "Terrain Details" or "Scenery Details" in OFF3 ???

Try reading some other threads than this

He boasts about JSGME ( what ever that is ) the Grand Sound mod as well

Do you find it a little strange that he can encounter ripping and Jaggies running a GFX570

Yet my GTX480 can handle OFF FLAT OUT . . . However it's plain Vanilla

I said somewhere . . .you're doing the testing. . if those terms are acceptable to you, FINE . . I just don't accept them here

Uncleal, don't take offense, but you're filled with too many dogmas.
If you had a problem with a mod 20 years ago, then all mods are bad. That's the way you think.
The word "mod" must cause the same feeling as the word "liberal" on you.

Frankly that all depends on the many settings as well as other gear in the machine. For example:

What resolution?
What are all of the sliders set at?
What is your CPU clocked at? How much RAM?
Are the jaggies just from not having some form of AA turned on or are they from looking at the edges of the screen when you turn your head with TrackIR?

There so many more variables to the performance of OFF than just the mods. To be honest, turning mods on or completely off, I find no difference in my frame rates or the quality of detail. It's changing the other stuff that impacts that.

Hellshade

Uncleal:
It is interesting that you comment on mods that you have never tried, but yet you say that they are bad. You might want to try some of these mods before you say if that are bad or not, otherwise you are just voicing an unknown opinion.

I use the JSGME tool for years on a lot of other games with zero problems. And with this tool, I can install or remove any mod installed into a game with it by just one click of the mouse button.

I can also tell you that when I try mods, I test the FPS with and without the mod installed , and to date NO OFF mod has had a single FPS effect on the game.

You really need to check what you are talking about before you slam it with your comments.

Not really . . I've never had a bad time with a mod . . I've seen it happen to many others . . I remember in Red Baron III. . . I flew a SPAD with Twin 20mm Cannons, rather effective Gotha Medicine . . but after a while it becomes old. . as I remember I ran that 3 seperate times. Problem was that was the only aircraft available

That's where you're mistaken, the word Liberal. . . always says . . . it ain't worked yet, but this time It will be different . . .Never is

Where as the Mod says: I bought this game, but before I ring it out to find out where it's lacking, it needs modifications

I just haven't reached that stage yet

The fault I find with the mods is to get one needed ( or thought needed ) feature, I must install 19 features that a) I never thought I needed B) Don't know if it'll PLAY NICE with the other mods

Example: I formally enjoyed shooting rockets out of my Sopwith Triplanes belly in PHASE II, , , if someone offered a mod for that, . .I'd be first in line

I promised never to post Politics here, but I only offer a link to something I think many will enjoy

http://quartermoonsaloon.com/forum/showthread.php?16164-The-FENCE

Just to be clear.. I get these white jaggies only at the edge of my screen when I move my head.
This has been happening 'before' I even thought about putting mods into the game. Yes, I quickly included the modded sound package, but still noted it was still a problem . Mods included or vanilla version, it still happens.
I have Win7-64bit.. GTX570.. 8mb ram.. 24'' Flat screen monitor.. 1920x1200 resolution..

The Trackir sawtooth affair has always been discribed, as a lack of video memory, and the solution was always the same, adding more video memory did the deed.

But now all that seems to be changed. So I'll say again for those who wish to listen, I've encountered that identical problem Twice at different times, and with different machines, once in Phase II in XP.

Once in Phase III in Windows 7. . . Both times more video memory made everybody play nice

However I've had the audacity to have always run plain Vanilla versions of OFF.

My old-fashioned theory, is that if something acts wacky the developers offer excellent support on their plain vanilla product

You'd rather run all the mods, go ahead . . . . it's yours

But if it screws up, you're on your own

Right Now . . All BETS are off. The developers machines are all running WOFF

Try to keep the thread on topic before Uncleal gets another one locked:

The whole point of the community's recent work with JSGME, OFFice, OlPaint01's bundles, etc. is to put together tested combinations of mods in ways that are known to work, capturing the wisdom of the modders themselves in simple rules. You're right, users shouldn't have to worry about all that.

And we're making good progress. For example, you don't have to sort out which rear gun arc mod is compatible with which damage model--or even know that that's an issue--as only the right mods for your campaign are activated in the right order with the right dependencies. Thanks to recent feedback from elephant, the next version of OFFice will be able to combine his Spandau mod with Creaghorn's Spandau mod, both already in the sound bundle, so use elephant's external hit sounds and Creaghorn's rate of fire modifications, so what were conflicting mods become cooperating mods. The same's already true for 33Lima's flakmods and Bletchley's AA mods, OlPaint01 reworked them and we wrote rules so they work together instead of causing problems. And so on.

We can make OFF a better game. If you're not interested in helping, that's fine. But please stop denigrating the hard work of others who love OFF just as much as you do.

What is going on here? I ask for assistance with a minor problem, and it suddenly gets turned into some sort of witch hunt because it's deemed I have used mods?
I don't want see another thread locked because someone else takes it down a different path with their own different agenda!
hehehehehe! and I must get my eyes tested

It's not just the total amount of video RAM that matters to the white triangle problem, as simply running at higher resolutions eats up more RAM as well. 1920x1200 is a lot of pixels to push, but that's why you have the GTX570.

But here's another thing to try I haven't seen anywhere but seems to help with my GTX570 at 1920x1200. Right click your CFS3.exe and choose properties, and on the Compatibility tab check "Disable desktop composition".

Desktop composition is a generally great feature of Vista/Win7 that keeps each window as a texture in video memory. This allows all the fancy stuff like translucent windows, real-time rendering of window previews in the task bar/switcher, etc. So it's not just your desktop that takes up video ram at 1920x1200, but every single open window as well. Freeing up some of that video memory by disabling composition may help.

Let us know how you fare.

Good advice! I'll give it a whirl later

Agreed.

And mods aren't the problem. As I said before, the TrackIR jaggies occur no matter if you run mods or not. Some say it's video memory. Others say you need an SSD drive to pull the texture data off the drive faster. Well, I have a 1GB GTX580 and an Intel 80GB SSD drive that I run OFF directly from. I still get the TrackIR jaggies when I turn my head too fast unless I lower the terrain texture down to about 2. They become more noticeable at 3. Even more pronounced at 4 sir.

I don't think there is a single solution that fits everyone for whatever reason.

and yes, let's please not get a thread locked because it has been taken far off topic. That doesn't help anyone.

Hellshade

Try disabling desktop composition, Hellshade. If it helps for a few of us NVIDIA GTX folks at least, that'd be something.

Just have to say I was getting above myself there.. this is of course PR's thread.. (talk about hijacking)

There can be no non-believers in your little fantasy world, life is tough

You guys were ready to apply ARCHIE stats which changed through the war, to aircraft machine gun accuracy. Kind of like building the Frankenstein Monster with an Abby Normal Brain

Or a whole page of Horsehockey based on some workshop settinge about ground gun accuracy

Trooper says something in that he's had the jaggies before and after installing the mod's. . that was his choice . . but it takes the mod out of it

This makes me think of one other possibility that I don't want to think about, namely the video card

Does anybody know HOW to test that GTX570 for the amount of memory that IS working

Failing that, . . the Homepage recommends 1024mb DDR3, Get my hands on a 8600 but with 2 GB. . the sliders would need to be down to 3, but if the jaggies are gone, I'd know why. I don't know what I could do about it, but I'd know

So says the king of open minded and flexible thinking.

Hellshade

I have jaggies in XP, with my 1GB ATI4890 card and my Intel CPU@3.2Ghz. And no mods installed....

Did the required deed.. but it had a very minimal effect
However, the only thing that has had any effect was to bring the terrain slider back to 3.. The jaggies at the edge of the screen have dissappeared.
I only get a brief hint of one if I turn my head super fast, but I don't do that in game so I think I'm happy, lol!

You'll learn to play with that. I did and stop bothering with it.

That was my 'solution'. At 2 they don't happen at all. At 3 they are barely noticeable and at 4 and 5 they get much more pronounced. Either that or learn to turn your head really slow with TrackIR.

Hellshade

.

Trooper117, for what it's worth, here is a link to a thread I started over in our CA OFF forums back in February outlining my system and settings. Also, if you do a search for "white triangles" and/or "white jaggies" in that forum you will find quite a bit of additional info on the subject.

Pushing OFF to the Limits with Older Systems

Cheers!

Lou

.

Cheers Lou!

Trooper117,

The white jaggies with TrackIR can be reduced by reducing your fill rates. That means lower graphics settings.

In my case, they become nearly non-existent if I disable my ATI card's standard AA and use morphological AA only. Morphological AA is post-process AA, and I get a lot of the eye candy without big demands on my graphics card. I believe that nVidia is working on a similar process, but not available yet AFAIK.

One trick that can help the jaggies is to go into the TrackIR software and reduce the motion control speed (range is .1 to 5). Reduce it to about 0.8 or less.

Hi Trooper117,

Sorry to hear you are having some probs.
I have a GTX 570.

Slider settings are 54355.

I use an unmodded P3 (HitR).

I too get white/blue jaggies but their incidence seems
inconsistent and not, at times, related to settings.

I have completed DH5 missions in 1917 with hugely detailed
cloud-scapes and terrains and quite large EA formations,
absolutely no jaggies over airfields or anywhere else.
On the other hand I have had 1917 Pup missions with clear skies
and snow covered terrain that were plagued with jaggies.

It's a sweet mystery to me as to why.

The only thing I will tentatively hazzard is that jaggies do
seem to settle down once new settings have been allowed to
"bed-in". At least that has been my experience.

Oh, and do check that your settings are the same across the
cfs3config.exe, offmanager.exe, and Combat Flight Simulator 3
files in the Nvidia Control Panel. Can cause probs if not.

Hth

.

Another trick that's been known to work for some folks is to bring up your task manager and set priority for TrackIR and OFF. Here is a link to the CA forums where I described how to do this:

The Solution to TrackIR Screen Tears & Jaggies

Lou

.

Hi Hellshade, that's an interesting idea. How is it done, where can one set the distance that the fog starts?


I'm asking because, despite recently upgrading to an NVidia GTX 560 with 2Gb RAM, and despite hopeful initial appearances to the contrary, I am _still_ experiencing the jaggies when panning fast with TrackIR 5. This still happens even when I fiddle with the TrackIR speed and smoothing parameters.

BUT - I don' think this is actually TrackIR-related, for two reasons. When I use the keys (not TrackIR) to "pull back" the cockpit view, I briefly get the jaggies on both sides of the screen. Perhaps more importantly, the jaggies are at their worst over an airfield, when close to another aircraft, or on a clear day. As these conditions reduce, so the jaggies reduce. When not over an airfield on a partly cloudy day, they seem to go away. On a really filthy day, they are never there.

So it seems that they may be caused by the system trying to draw too many objects all at the same time - I think that's well-recognised - but the more clouds that are around, the fewer things need drawing so the less the chance of jaggies?


Hence my interest in adjusting the fog limit. Seems to me that if one could have overall visibility constrained to, say, 30 miles (instead of the maximum 70 miles that I think OFF allows), then one could set Terrain and Scenery at 4 or 5 and maybe have the best of all worlds?

Apologies of course if I'm restating what others have already discovered, we are all progressing along this path at different rates!

Thanks

Mike

A high setting for "Terrain Detail" can go too far for some video cards - they seem to show
so much detail then, that the outlines of the details (or whatever) makes the patches black.
Maybe we need to experiment more.
But for me, "Terrain Detail" on 3 is perfectly fine; and not too grainy from the air, like 4 or 5 can be.

"Scenery Detail" seem to be 3D objects on the ground.
When I raised it to "5", I suddenly also saw hedges, which I hadn't seen before with lower settings.
Here also: lower is not a big loss - you just miss some additional things.
But if you need performance - give the hedges a miss.

That's so great about OFF - you can adjust it to your system, and it still looks great.

Workshop -> Graphics Config -> File -> Custom Settings -> Window -> Texture Info -> Fog Start.

Bump it down a few notches until you get the fog start distance that works for you. I find it to be a nice help, myself.

Hellshade

Thanks HS, now I know why this is news to me, every time I try to access Workshop-> Graphics Config I get thrown out by an error message telling me that DirectX 8 is requiired but not found. Tried everything including complete reinstall of CFS3 and OFF/BHAH plus HITR, but still get that message. Funny that, considering DirectX 9 is installed and working fine (otherwise surely OFF wouldn't work at all?). Is there another way of effecting this change, eg by directly editing some fiile?

Thanks

Mike

Mike try installing the full DX9 -this has extra dlls in - rather than the webinstaller thing

Further to my last, I've tried changing the Fog Start parameter by running CFS3Config.exe directly from within the "CFSWW1 Over Flanders Fields" folder, but it won't stay fixed at what I change it to (and yes I am exiting the program using "exit" from the "file" menu). Actually I had tried this method some time ago, but gave up then because of the non-permanance of the change I was trying to make.

Clearly it works for you Hellshade, I wonder what you did that's different? And as before, if I can't get the utility to change the data, where is the data file so I can try changing it via editing? (Thinks - I wonder if it's set to "read-only" on my machine, that would block the change I'm trying to make).

Thanks again

Mike