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#3751949 - 03/16/13 04:34 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Lieste]
piston79 Online   sleepy
Member

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 872
Originally Posted By: Lieste
Only because there isn't an approach from the south to Sinop - you'd have to make a longer route to hit it from West Or East... While you can just head north in a straight-ish line via DETOS UW-99 ODIRA.

Departure practically due south. Of course ~ with relations being poor between Israel and Syria/Lebanon, there might routinely be a large detour over the Med, making SINOP slightly more probable... but I'd still favour DETOS/UW-99.

Another consideration indicating a turn at ODIRA is that the plot has the aircraft someway south of the nominal corridor ~ this could be the result of an early turn intended to make up time?


Some additioonal info:

1. Press release (google translation from russian):

Quote:
Plane, say local experts from turkish Flight Services Control, at 12:29 local time (13:29 MSK) on Thursday passed the airport flight information zone Samsun on the Black Sea coast, in 12.40 - left the flight zone of Turkey


Source

2. Press release from "Siberia" 1:

Quote:
OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT of Siberia
Flight details SBI1812
The Tu-154 (RA-85693) was Flight SBI 1811/1812 from Novosibirsk, Sochi-Tel Aviv-Novosibirsk. On the way to Israel, landing in Sochi was performed in order to refuel.
The actual timetable (time UTC):
October 3, 2001
SBI - 1811 Novosibirsk - Sochi - Tel Aviv (DST 0909 - Vol 1338/1500 - TLV 1700).
October 4, 2001
SBI - 1812 Tel Aviv - point Rabit (TLV 0800 - RABIT 0944).
Estimated flight time based on actual weather:
Novosibirsk - Sochi = 4 hours 38 minutes, Sochi - Tel Aviv = 2 hours 08 minutes.
Tel Aviv - Novosibirsk = 6 hours 00 minutes.
The actual flight time:
Novosibirsk - Sochi = 4 hours 29 minutes.
Sochi - Tel Aviv = 2 hours 00 minutes.
Tel Aviv - RABIT = 1 hour 44 minutes.


Source

3. Press release from Siberia 2:

Quote:
Official Statement airline "Siberia"

NOVOSIBIRSK, October 6, 2001 (12:00 local time).

Unfortunately, the media may be full of inaccuracies and distortions. Most often distorted by the following:

1 The Tu-154 (RA-85693) Campaign followed the flight number 1812 from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk landing directly without intermediate in Bulgaria. Flight plan did not envisage such a landing.
2 Flight number 1812, adopted in accordance with the Russian civil aviation terminology, is a "charter on a regular basis." Departure of this flight from Novosibirsk is year round on Wednesdays. The first flight of "Siberia" in Novosibirsk - Tel Aviv was executed in 1995.
3 The exact title of Victor Alexeev, located in the crew of Flight number 1812 - The head of flight safety inspection airline "Siberia." It was not the deputy director general of airline "Siberia."
4 The exact title of Vladimir Tasun, head of the operational headquarters in Novosibirsk - the head of the West Siberian District Interregional Territorial Administration air transport ministry.

The airline "Siberia" will provide further information as it becomes available.



-------------

Now, looking at map, that it could come up straight from ERGUN nav.point:

,

but "Siberia" also stated that the plane followed strictly the air roots (which is contrary to court documents....

Now should find out what is "airport flight information zone Samsun"...


Edited by piston79 (03/16/13 05:16 AM)


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#3756712 - 03/24/13 09:58 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]
piston79 Online   sleepy
Member

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 872
Originally Posted By: piston79

2. Press release from "Siberia" 1:

Quote:
OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT of Siberia
Flight details SBI1812
The Tu-154 (RA-85693) was Flight SBI 1811/1812 from Novosibirsk, Sochi-Tel Aviv-Novosibirsk. On the way to Israel, landing in Sochi was performed in order to refuel.
The actual timetable (time UTC):
October 3, 2001
SBI - 1811 Novosibirsk - Sochi - Tel Aviv (DST 0909 - Vol 1338/1500 - TLV 1700).
October 4, 2001
SBI - 1812 Tel Aviv - point Rabit (TLV 0800 - RABIT 0944).
Estimated flight time based on actual weather:
Novosibirsk - Sochi = 4 hours 38 minutes, Sochi - Tel Aviv = 2 hours 08 minutes.
Tel Aviv - Novosibirsk = 6 hours 00 minutes.
The actual flight time:
Novosibirsk - Sochi = 4 hours 29 minutes.
Sochi - Tel Aviv = 2 hours 00 minutes.
Tel Aviv - RABIT = 1 hour 44 minutes.


Source


Here the probable root of Tu-154M from Ben Gurion to ODIRA (credits to Lonewolf357). thumbsup




Total distance from Ben Gurion to crash site - 1419 km, time of flight - 1 hour 44 minutes, average speed - 817 km/h (looks plausible)


Edited by piston79 (03/24/13 11:47 AM)

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#3756767 - 03/24/13 12:08 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]
Lieste Online   sigh
Member

Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 1271
That track still turns south of ODIRA, yet isn't on UW99. I'd expect it to be flight along UW99 via DETOS with an early turn, to make up time perhaps, or a direct route, without turn from ERGUN, not via DETOS and UW99 at all... Being slightly East of UW99 then south of the continuation of marked route UW96 as drawn seems relatively unlikely.

I'd personally favour SIV-DETOS-UW99-earlyturn-UW96, but if there is specific information confirming being out of track position on the inbound leg to ODIRA, as well as the range indication that it was south of track 'outbound' towards Sochi.

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#3756830 - 03/24/13 02:33 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Lieste]
piston79 Online   sleepy
Member

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 872
Originally Posted By: Lieste

I'd personally favour SIV-DETOS-UW99-earlyturn-UW96, but if there is specific information confirming being out of track position on the inbound leg to ODIRA, as well as the range indication that it was south of track 'outbound' towards Sochi.


Yes, you're right, I just didn't do it well... frown

The information I've got recently (check couple of previous posts) is as follows:

1. According turkish experts - at 12.29 it passes Samsun, at 12.40 - it leaves turkish aerospace.(press release)
2. At 12.39.20 the ship called North-Caucasian center of ground controllers for passing ODIRA point.(internet - http://www.airdisaster.ru/reports.php?id=8)
3. It was outside the flight path and after radiocall from "Adler" airport it goes to the B-145 (clearly visible between 12.41 and 12.44 on ploating board)(court documents).
4. According a press release from "Syberia" the ship strictly follows the navigation roots (which is a bit contrary to point 3).(press release)

.......

I wrote to turkish authorities about more details for it's path, but no answer...

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#3763701 - 04/06/13 04:44 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]
piston79 Online   sleepy
Member

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 872
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

The strongest contributors to RCS are engines, so Tu-154, with three of them, should be somewhere between Tu-16 and Il-76. Strictly my IMHO.

I would guess the Tu-154 RCS around 42sqrm.
That gives 280km of 10dB lockon range for the GSN...
eek2




Click to reveal..








Quote:
Here some info for the Tu-143... :

http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10610.html

RCS stated is 0.25 -0.35 m2...(!)



So:

RCS(tu-143)/range^4=RCS(tu-154m)/range^4

42 sq. m./280^4 = 0.3 sq. m./x^4


thus make ~81.4 km range for Tu-143 (Reis) with 10 dB signal/noise ratio (IMHCalculations). Same ratio for Tu-154M would be achieved at say ~275-280 km.... Here, where target and Tu-154M should have been when RPN illuminates "something":



Here, when the missile was launched (both objects are within the range of min 10dB signal over noise strength...):


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