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#3583715 - 05/31/12 07:53 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Silver_Dragon]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 4313
Not possible since it was not CA's goal. But it will function adequately to provide you with plenty of fun to begin with. Maybe Hpasp will be interested in creating accurate SAMs for DCS and maybe DCS will be interested in helping. Who knows smile

DCS: Hpasp's IADS biggrin

Originally Posted By: Silver_Dragon
Rudimentary and no properly simulated.... but open to make 3rd Party addons..... ¿DCS: 3rd Party SamSimulator?
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#3583760 - 05/31/12 09:42 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
JWNoctis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 40
Yes...and it might be useful to add some accurate first-hand information, instead of age-old western intelligence, from technical manuals like those we've seen around here and the simulator's documentations to various other simulators out there.

Plenty of them are still modeling SA-75M(SA-2F) as an advanced version of S-75M3(SA-2E), with 2K11(SA-4) and S-200(SA-5) as systems combining command line-of-sight with terminal active radar homing a la AIM-54 Phoenix.

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#3583787 - 05/31/12 10:48 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Silver_Dragon]
Amidkor Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/28/11
Posts: 46
Loc: Russia
Originally Posted By: Silver_Dragon
We need a jump to 3D..... today DCS present combined operations and see them....

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=89379

How made DCS mods - http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=202

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#3583791 - 05/31/12 10:57 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: JWNoctis]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 4313
This doesn't have much to do with intel. ED does aircraft simulations, basically.

Originally Posted By: JWNoctis
Yes...and it might be useful to add some accurate first-hand information, instead of age-old western intelligence, from technical manuals like those we've seen around here and the simulator's documentations to various other simulators out there.

Plenty of them are still modeling SA-75M(SA-2F) as an advanced version of S-75M3(SA-2E), with 2K11(SA-4) and S-200(SA-5) as systems combining command line-of-sight with terminal active radar homing a la AIM-54 Phoenix.
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#3583814 - 05/31/12 11:57 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
JWNoctis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 40
I know, but I was talking about things like, say, H3ANW with its various databases, the upcoming Command, and some Falcon 4.0 mods, to name a few.

And I wonder...Does those technical manuals constitute "reliable, published sources" on Wikipedia? Some of those articles about these systems could really use a revamp--Most of those are based on released blue intel.

Anyway, it would always be nice to have some human-piloted targets adversaries!

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#3583836 - 06/01/12 01:21 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: piston79]
Lonewolf357 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 169
Originally Posted By: piston79


Piston79, thanks! Although I frequently visit Dr. Kopp's lair, this graph somehow slipped from my attention! It is really interesting.


According to it, the old 30N6 has inferior range to even the SNR-125, and even the 92N2 (of S-400) will detect F-22 at distance not greater than some 30 NM. If this is so, then these systems will actually have a hard time dealing with modern Stealth aircraft and cruise missiles, such as JASSM...

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#3583873 - 06/01/12 03:08 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Lonewolf357]
Hpasp Online   grunt
Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357
Originally Posted By: piston79


Piston79, thanks! Although I frequently visit Dr. Kopp's lair, this graph somehow slipped from my attention! It is really interesting.
Click to reveal..


According to it, the old 30N6 has inferior range to even the SNR-125, and even the 92N2 (of S-400) will detect F-22 at distance not greater than some 30 NM. If this is so, then these systems will actually have a hard time dealing with modern Stealth aircraft and cruise missiles, such as JASSM...


These are mostly speculations, but we can narrow the S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B) capability against Stealth down, based on reliable information...
... as all we know...




...the S-300PS/PMU battery main Target Acquisition Radar is the ST-68U 36D6 19Zh6 (Tin Shield)...


... and its capabilities are public.
(operating manual from here...)
http://rtv-pvo-gsvg.narod.ru/books.htm

It can detect a RCS=0,1 sqr-m target from 145km. (page 10)

So after doing the math...
F-117A detection range would be ~50km (the only reliable info, calculated from the actual P-18 detection range beside Simanovci '99)
B-2A detection range would be ~40km (just guessing the RCS)
F-22A detection range would be ~30km (just guessing the RCS)

But...

... if we calculate the metric wavelenght 55Zh6 Nevo-U (Tall Rack) CVLO target acquisition radar also into the equation, than the picture is quite different...
... read more here:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?d2nrwg0wmmyudi9

thumbsup


Edited by Hpasp (06/01/12 05:21 AM)
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Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3584014 - 06/01/12 09:07 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
Lonewolf357 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 169
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


These are mostly speculations, but we can narrow the S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B) capability against Stealth down, based on reliable information...
... as all we know...

...the S-300PS/PMU battery main Target Acquisition Radar is the ST-68U 36D6 19Zh6 (Tin Shield)...

... and its capabilities are public.
It can detect a RCS=0,1 sqr-m target from 145km. (page 10)

So after doing the math...
F-117A detection range would be ~50km (the only reliable info, calculated from the actual P-18 detection range beside Simanovci '99)
B-2A detection range would be ~40km (just guessing the RCS)
F-22A detection range would be ~30km (just guessing the RCS)

But...

... if we calculate the metric wavelenght 55Zh6 Nevo-U (Tall Rack) CVLO target acquisition radar also into the equation, than the picture is quite different...
... read more here:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?d2nrwg0wmmyudi9

thumbsup


0,1 sq. m from 145 km?! Holy cow, that's a POWER!!! It looks like Dr Kopp made it all right in this graph:

It looks like it has even longer range against low-RCS targets than mighty 64N6 Big Bird!
I wonder, which RCS figure for F-117 did you used in your calculations? If I gonna take my favorite 0,0034 square meter figure for F-22, it would give me a range of between 30 and 40 nautical miles (!) according to this graph (there are two lines belonging to 36D6, perhaps different versions of it). By the way, what was a detection range for that F-117? In SAM Simulator, it's somewhere around 30 km, is it realistic?

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#3584037 - 06/01/12 09:42 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 4313
This is 'straight up math', however - you can expect losses in RL radars. Hpasp's calculation is probably most accurate since it automatically accounts for the losses of one radar at least.

Also, once jammers enter into play (And they will, since each F-22/F-35 is practically its own stand-off jammer) you can see that range shrink into uselessness. It's important to keep in mind that as neat as things look on paper, in reality warfare uses a lot of assets that will not be friendly to your operations.

In addition, the required sensitivity is so great that it will be relatively easy to make a stealth aircraft 'dissapear' again. That's the real strength of a stealth aircraft.
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#3584050 - 06/01/12 10:03 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: GrayGhost]
Hpasp Online   grunt
Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost

In addition, the required sensitivity is so great that it will be relatively easy to make a stealth aircraft 'dissapear' again. That's the real strength of a stealth aircraft.


Physics is tough for both parties...
... if you reduce your plane radar cross section by half, you achieve only 16% reduction in detection range.
biggrin
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup

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