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#3582638 - 05/30/12 06:23 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
piston79 Online   sleepy
Member

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 868
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
You weapon is what "your" leader bought...


Here my list to "my leader":
http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/air_def/air_def.pdf

For PMU1 is stated 300 km detection range (but true 83M6E Command and Control System)... So, the mistery remains...

....Aaaand today's inteligence report: wink

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/maxwell/mp30.pdf


Edited by piston79 (05/30/12 06:49 AM)


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#3582649 - 05/30/12 06:47 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
farokh Online   cowboy
farokh
Member

Registered: 04/22/12
Posts: 605
Loc: IRAN
guys biggrin this is my training video sa-4 ! i make it with camatsia program

of course i did it around 1 year ago ! but i upload this at rapidshare now yep

https://rapidshare.com/files/339575081/capture-6.avi

enjoy thumbsup


Edited by milang (05/30/12 06:57 AM)

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#3582682 - 05/30/12 08:41 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: piston79]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 4311
Out-dated. Does not take golden eagles into consideration.

Originally Posted By: piston79

....Aaaand today's inteligence report: wink

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/maxwell/mp30.pdf
_________________________
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44th VFW

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#3582714 - 05/30/12 09:58 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: farokh]
Hpasp Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1708
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: milang
guys biggrin this is my training video sa-4 ! i make it with camatsia program

of course i did it around 1 year ago ! but i upload this at rapidshare now yep

https://rapidshare.com/files/339575081/capture-6.avi

enjoy thumbsup


Just upload it to Youtube, and I will share it in the SAMSIM website.
Nice shot.
thumbsup
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup

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#3582718 - 05/30/12 10:12 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Lonewolf357]
Hpasp Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1708
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357

By the way, does anyone knows what is the output power of 30N6's transmitter? Looks like this data is still classified, I was unable to find it. Only for S-300V's 9S32 radar data is available, but from highly unreliable source. It states an average power of only 13 kilowatts and peak - of just 150. With that, it won't be able to track stealthy targets at distances beyond 25-30 km at best, so I highly doubt it.


IMHO:

As the main question was concerning Stealth vs modern SAMs (S-300P/Patriot)...

In the '70s during the development of these fundamentally-new, digitally controlled phase-arrayed, multi channel SAM systems were aimed to counter Jamming, ARM's, and Weasels.
The AN/MPQ-53 and 30N6 (Flap Lid of SA-10) designs answered these challenges, by significantly reducing transmitted power (negating side/back-lobe HARM shots), and narrowed down monopulse pencil-beams (disabling track breaking efforts).

When the Stealth appeared, during the '80s, both system (Patriot/S-300P) fire control radars needed a major redesign, to counter these new threat effectively.
The Patriot PAC-3 system received the AN/MPQ-65 set, while the S-300PM received the (Tomb Stone SA-20) fire control radar.

My educated guess is that...
Patriot PAC-1 and PAC-2
S-300PT (SA-10A) and S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B)
... has limited capability against Stealth, as they were designed against (TBM's, ECM, ARM's,and Weasels).

While on the other side...
Patriot GEM/PAC-3
S-300PM/PMU1 (SA-20A) and S-300PMU2 (SA-20B) and S-400 (SA-21)
... is ready to meet the Stealth challenge.
(as they are designed to counter it)

cowboy

ps: just like a speed bump... smash


Edited by Hpasp (05/30/12 11:55 AM)
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup

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#3582724 - 05/30/12 10:27 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: GrayGhost]
piston79 Online   sleepy
Member

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 868
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Out-dated. Does not take golden eagles into consideration.


If you have something more recent, Welcome... smile

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#3582754 - 05/30/12 11:22 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 4311
There's nothing out on the internet.
_________________________
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44th VFW

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#3582755 - 05/30/12 11:24 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Wolfhound]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 4311
Finally! Apologies, just took me a while to find it again:

http://pdf.aiaa.org/preview/1979/PV1979_91.pdf

Originally Posted By: Wolfhound
Do you have the name of the paper?
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44th VFW

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#3582806 - 05/30/12 12:56 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
Lonewolf357 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 169
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

As the main question was concerning Stealth vs modern SAMs (S-300P/Patriot)...

In the '70s during the development of these fundamentally-new, digitally controlled phase-arrayed, multi channel SAM systems were aimed to counter Jamming, ARM's, and Weasels.
The AN/MPQ-53 and 30N6 (Flap Lid of SA-10) designs answered these challenges, by significantly reducing transmitted power (negating side/back-lobe HARM shots), and narrowed down monopulse pencil-beams (disabling track breaking efforts).

When the Stealth appeared, during the '80s, both system (Patriot/S-300P) fire control radars needed a major redesign, to counter these new threat effectively.
The Patriot PAC-3 system received the AN/MPQ-65 set, while the S-300PM received the (Tomb Stone SA-20) fire control radar.

My educated guess is that...
Patriot PAC-1 and PAC-2
S-300PT (SA-10A) and S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B)
... has limited capability against Stealth, as they were designed against (TBM's, ECM, ARM's,and Weasels).

While on the other side...
Patriot GEM/PAC-3
S-300PM/PMU1 (SA-20A) and S-300PMU2 (SA-20B) and S-400 (SA-21)
... is ready to meet the Stealth challenge.
(as they are designed to counter it)

cowboy

ps: just like a speed bump... smash


Hpasp, this is very interesting, and certainly very plausible assumption! Thank you for this information!
Meanwhile I also made some (very amateurish) research. There is a lot more info about aircraft radars, even the newest ones, than about SAM radars, so I decided to make some comparison and interpolation of data. The Zaslon radar, of MiG-31 fighter (which is the same period technology as the S-300's 30N6), is stated to have average power output of 2,5 kW, and detect MiG-21 class target at 130 km distance, which means that a target with RCS of 0.0034 square meters (as I mentioned earlier, this figure was given as an average for F-22 Raptor by one man who supposedly have an access to restricted information in Russia) will be detected at about 20-25 km range, if my calculations are correct.
The latest Irbis radar, intended for Su-35BM aircraft, has an average power output of 5 kW and peak power of 40 kW, and is claimed to be able to detect a target with RCS of 3 square meters (MiG-21 class) at whopping 350-400 km. This means that F-22 will be detected at the distance of some 70-80 km. The Irbis is also lighter and more compact radar, than the Zaslon, which can only be installed on massive MiG-31. The Irbis is the same-generation system, as the S-400, so I might guess that performance leap from S-300PS to S-400 can be comparable to that from Zaslon to Irbis.


Edited by Lonewolf357 (05/30/12 01:00 PM)

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#3582831 - 05/30/12 01:42 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 4311
^^^^

But it probably has some issues when it comes to useage. In any case, I believe those figures are all for look-up cases in clear weather. This is significant because a look-down situation can drop the detection range by 1/3rd.

Also, there seems to be some sort of difference between detection and tracking that is not well explained, and tracking distances are shorter :/

In addition, IIRC, the IRBIS detects warships at 400km, but not fighters. Just IIRC. I need to find out why I remember something like that, but I'm pretty sure I saw a brochure of it that dispelled the 'detection of aircraft at 400km' deal. But ... memory can fail, so I could be wrong.


Edited by GrayGhost (05/30/12 01:45 PM)
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