Hi

I don't understand why all the joysticks I can find are center sprung.

Most real aircraft don't have center sprung controls.

This is because it would be almost impossible to control them.

As I understand it some fly-by-wire aircraft have center sprung or pressure sensitive controls, and that might make sense given the computer is flying the aircraft and the pilot is just directing it.

Flying a helicopter with a center sprung joystick is nigh on impossible.

The reason is simple to understand:

Imagine you are holding a right deflection.
This requires a force equal to centering spring force to the RIGHT.
In a real aircraft it would require almost no force to maintain a right deflection, because the controls on real aircraft are designed to "balance"

So it is wrong already, now see what happens next ...

Now we wish to ease the stick to the left.

Because of the centering force instead of applying a force to the left (as in a real aircraft) you have to reduce the force you are applying to the RIGHT!
This is not the same at all!
In fact it uses the exact OPPOSITE muscles that you would use in a real aircraft.
So that is completely wrong also.

Now it gets worse ...

When the joystick is centered it is almost impossible to make small corrective adjustments.
Because you are always fighting the springs.

So whilst it is POSSIBLE to flight sim with a center spring joystick:
a) it isn't realistic
b) it is MUCH harder than real life
c) it is dangerous to fly a real aircraft afterwards (very)

On the DCS Black Shark forums you can read endless discussions about how hard it is to fly the Black Shark.
But it is actually one of the easiest helicopters to fly!
They don't realise that it is the JOYSTICK that is the problem ... not them!
With a correctly designed joystick flying the Black Shark is very easy (and very enjoyable!)

IMO pressure sensitive joysticks are also useless in this regard.

So how to get a correctly designed joystick? I wish I knew ... this is what I have managed so far:

a) Take a Saitek AV8R, replace the center spring with a piece of sponge
b) Use a Microsoft Force Feedback 2

Neither of these is perfect, although with a force feedback capable simulator (Condor, Black Shark, etc)
the FF2 is very good.

I have a theory as to how this ridiculous situation could have developed:

a) products are designed to sell, not be used
b) most people buying joysticks either aren't pilots or don't understand how aircraft controls work
c) the largest % of the market is for fighter simulators, which are fly-by-wire and so it doesn't really matter
d) many serious flight simmers use yokes

The reason I am posting:

- How do I obtain a joystick that is truly suitable for flight-simming? (Gliders and helicopters mainly)
- Does anybody else agree with my viewpoint?
- the CH Flightstick Pro is described as having a "unique centering system" // Is this what I am looking for?

Thanks in advance

Amazing Factory

Yes, but in these are aerodynamic forces acting over the control surfaces...

Some time ago Tarmac Aces - now out of busines - make a joystick (universal base with many grips options) that act like you
desire, since use hidraulic dampers instead springs, the lever stay where you leave. But now "is history".

Maybe you find the same system in this low production stick dedicated do helicopter simulation - but they are expensive.

Edit - sample: http://www.maxflightstick.com/MaxFighter_Standard.html

Or maybe the (expensive) Paccus Hawk Hidraulic Force Feedback acts in the same manner...



The only difference in this is to have one spring for each axis - X and Y - so you have a pronounced axis transition.
Their gimbals are built similar to R/C radio gimbals - another sticks use the same system. And they have the same "spring center force".

User modified Saitek stick with dampers to fly Black Shark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sle-xYRj2wo

Sokol1

Well, You could be right about helicopters, but on fixed wing aircraft, there is a centering force indeed (during flight). This force is changing with the IAS, and it is a very important input for the pilot.

Sokol1: thank you for that informative post

Regarding aerodynamic centering forces:

control surfaces on fixed wing are designed to (mostly) balance these forces out
for example elevators might hinge some distance back from leading edge:

<---O---------->

so during low-g flying you would never feel any centering force

this avoids pilot fatigue and pilot induced oscillations

furthermore IRL these forces increase smoothly from zero
as opposed to these center sprung joysticks which often require a large force simply to deflect at all!

Unfortunately whilst the majority of joystick purchasers remain ignorant we will all be stuck with this useless junk
(or paying through the nose)

This combination of useless hardware and low quality and badly designed flight sim software really destroys the whole experience for me.

(At least Condor + FF2 is a decent combination)

Not strictly true.
You always have a centring force. This is to a zero hinge moment, rather than to zero elevator deflection, and increases from small values at low IAS to larger values at a higher IAS but it is present.
Complicating this is a frictional force in the system that with many early types greatly exceeded low speed, in trim centring forces needed for the minor deflections used in steady flight - this made (for example) the Hurricane difficult to fly at a predictable AOA and speed at low speeds, as the trim caused hinge moments that were smaller than frictional force for large departures in attained speed.

If you (mis)set trim to an AOA different to the one required for the current speed and 'g' loading then there will be a significant centring force that the pilot must resist to keep the current flight path.

Aircraft centring forces are usually much higher even near the centre than our 'flightsticks', but while the PC stick has a very limited increase in force those in an aircraft increase to 'pilot strength limits' when operating near the higher speed ranges, and when far off trim.

Well programmed (which is rare, IMO) the MSFFB2 or similar sticks can cover some of the limitations and performance characteristics of a real system, but it is strongly limited by low stick forces and a relatively small "throw" over too wide an angle.
The tendency of the elevator to "float" reduces longitudinal stability compared to the normal 'irreversable' centre used in PC sticks, so the absence is noticeable.

There is centering force, at least it is my IRL (glider and small prop) experience. Of course it is very low at cruising speed but in flight the stick wont stay in a deflected position, it will return to neutral. If it was not like this, why would we need a trim?

In a normal casual flying situation you only make small corrections on the stick, so the forces are very low, but if you make bigger deflection you will notice them at once.

The hinge placement on the elevator is to reduce the forces but not to eliminate them. (just look at the two arms of moment and it will be obvious)

The consumer joysticks on the market are POS, it is no question. The biggest problem for me is the short stick, what makes the precise flying very difficult and make the centering forces very sudden and unrealistic. That is why I ended up building one on my own:)

cheers
MM

Yes, maybe I should have said:

The control forces in real life aircraft HELP you to fly the aircraft
whereas the centering forces in these joysticks HINDER you.

For my purposes (gliders and helicopters) I fly with finger-pressure so all I need is a joystick with no spring that can hold its deflection when I take my hand off.

How can we bring this to the attention of Saitek, CH, Logitech, ThrustMaster, etc?

Well as long as 99% of the flight simmers are happy with their current products they wont change anything.

I think flight sim community badly needs a company like Fanatec for car sims. Which would make premium, realistic devices, at a high but acceptable price. The tarmac could have been that but unfortunately they failed for some reason.

I got a reply from Saitek:

We are always looking to improve the range, but we also need to take into account the marketing value of products as well.
Your comments are very useful and maybe we can look into a hybrid controller that has spring force which can be deactivated so the stick/yoke/collective is 'sticky'.

Your inquiry has been forwarded to our development team for reference.

AF:

I really don't know where you get this idea....

If you have a (non FBW) aircraft trimmed for straight and level and you apply pitch or roll input, you will have to continually apply pressure to hold it in that position - just like our gaming joysticks. In fact, somewhere there's cockpit video around from an L39 (from the Patriots team) where he's using both hands to hold the stick to one side. If you let go of the controls, they will quickly find an aerodynamic center.

What _IS_ different is that the amount of force needed to hold a given stick position (and therefore control input) will vary with airspeed - the faster you go the harder it is to hold an off-trim stick position.

I can't say "I guarantee no aircraft will...." but I am not aware of any non-FBW aircraft that, if you input a right roll input for example...will "balance" itself to that point and not try to push back to a non-rolling condition.

I've flown small aircraft in real life (Cessna, Mooney)...and I fly online very often with people who are full time airline pilots. Your statements are...bizarre to us.