http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...s?newsfeed=true

Take aim ..... fire!

Moggy DCM

I think the headline is missleading, no more new memorial at all only cause its 70 years ago is nonsence.
If there are new informations about single persons or groups, of course there should be a memorial to remind the people. Even 1900 years later, like in the case of "Arminius and the Cheruskers", who defeated the roman troops around the "Teuteburger Wald".

But Hmm, a memorial for the Bombercommand?? At least its a little more tastefull than the Bomber Harris Memorial, i wouldnt build one for both.
Of course the soldiers in this groups fought brave and well with the best in mind for their country, but the tactic to make civilians the main target, in the hope to demoralize them, or even worse just for revenge, brings this force rather close to the Wehrmacht.
Maybe, if we wait another 70 years, we will see new memorials for the DAK or the Wehrmacht forces helping to defend Finland??
Realy i wouldnt want that, in this case i would say, its 70 years ago, but dont forget the bad things they did or was invulved.

I like memorials, if they are for single persons or groups who fought brave and honourable agains other soldiers or circumstances. I also like memorials to remind massacres, killed civilians etc. But i dislike memorials for groups who had civilians as main target or who had no problems with killing civilians for other reasons. Only cause the Waffen-SS fought very brave they wouldnt get anything from me, in oposite to their victims.

Imho a "Dresden memorial" in germany and a rebuilded "Fraunkirche" with help of the british goverment dont fit to an "Bomber Harris Memorial". Its like buldings a "Luftwaffe Bombergruppen Memorial" in germany. Also this soldiers faught brave, they also thought they have to do it for the fatherland, but Guernica, Coventry and London imho disallow that.

They better should create a memorial for all victims of the bomberwar, then the brave fallen soldiers can stand side by side with the victims on the ground.

Just my opinion.

Knegel

There are of course memorials in the Baltic States to those who fought in the "foreign legion" of the SS against the invading and occupying Russians. That's a reminder that there are other points of view about the second world war.

Britain did of course contribute to the rebuilding of the Fraunkirche, and Queen Elizabeth made what was interpreted as an apology for Dresden, though perhaps an apology for Hamburg might have been more appropriate since twice as many people were killed in that city.

I recently wrote that the further you get from the western front the more morally ambiguous the Second World War actually becomes.

In the 1960s you didn't question why British soldiers were fighting in the Libyan desert, or indeed in Iraq. To the generations who have grown up since with no Imperial assumptions, that kind of omission needs to be dealt with.

The Bomber Command memorial as I understand it is not a Bomber Harris memorial, and I suspect many of the surviving BC veterans would be glad. Its a memorial to the aircrew. Respected though Harris was, he was not loved for his WWI attitudes to his own men, including a complete refusal to recognise shell shock. Patton was suspended for slapping two GIs. No action was taken against Harris for humiliating hundreds of RAF aircrew and relegating them to cleaning toilets for the rest of the war for the offence of combat fatigue - what we now call PTSD.

Hi,

there are for sure no memorials for the SS or other german troops in the baltics, after an initial happyness about the withdrawal of the russians, they fast saw that it was more a new occupation than a liberation. Many times i was in the baltics, i never saw such a memorial.

In Finnland its a little different, but afaik also there is no official memorial specialy for german troops, for this the german troops made to bad things to the Finns after Finnland ended the war with russia. Though, the piece with russia wasnt realy wanted, rather forced and most i met in Finnland are sorry that they had to fight their long time allieds. In museums they remind to the fact that germany was the only non-scandinavian country helping them to defend and re-occupy their homeland after the losses in 1939, but i wouldnt count that as war memorial. In this museums they also write that they dont got anything from germany for free. They had to pay the "old" bf109G´s and other meterial they got and that germany also didnt help them in 1939.

Hamburg also was horrible, but Dresden was at a time when bombing big citys lost all sence. There was nothing to gain anymore. In 1942/43 there was the somehwat valid argument that bombing civilians might destroy the will to win, already in 1944 it was clear that this tactic just motivated the germans to work harder, the same result that the bombing of english towns had to the british people.
The only influence to the war of bombing civilians was the fact that defending this attacks did bind resources. On the other hand, the increased motivation brought the english people, same like the germans, to show an incredible performence and inflexibility, resulting in the oposite what the attackers wanted and made the war harder and longer than needed.

Afaik a few years ago they did offer a "Bomber Harris Memorial", thats why i wrote "At least its(this new memorial is) a little more tastefull than the Bomber Harris Memorial...", still imho its not good. Its true that we sometimes have to make bad things to get rid of even bader things, or just cause we dont know it better, but i wouldnt be pround about it and wouldnt want to point to this as something good.

Here's some information about at least one "foreign legion" memorial in the Baltics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_of_Lihula

There are plainly active SS veterans associations:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...ia-6166026.html

The only Harris memorial I know of is his statue which stands facing Lord Dowding outside the RAF Church St Clement Dane in central London.

Moggy DCM

Thats NOT a "foreign legion" memorial!!

"To Estonian men who fought in 1940-1945 against Bolshevism and for the restoration of Estonian independence."
They dont show a german soldier, but a estonian one, even before the war they did use the German style helmet, like many other countrys around the world.

The Estonians, same like the Lithuanians and even Bellarussians who wanted to fight for their country in an regular army, mainly did that in a Waffen SS unit, cause they wasnt allowed to be a part of a regular german Wehrmacht unit and the own country´s Mitlitary infrastructure wasnt existend. This Waffen SS units you cant compare with the german Waffen SS units, where Nazi fanatics took young boys to make them fanatics with special training and material. Though, like many who want to free their country, this soldiers often was fanatics, not Nazi fanatics, but national fanatics.
Edit: The fighting Waffen SS units also shouldnt mixed up with the other SS units, responsible for killing jews etc.
Of course i agree that its badly wrong to create a memorial for obvious killers, like they did in Estonia (Colonel Alfons Rebane). Still Estonia got attacked and occupied by Russia and the official Memorial is more a reminder to this occupation(still denied by the todays russian goverment) and to show that estonians did fight for their freedom.
The strangewise still growing Neo-Nazi groups around the world(specialy in Russia) are mad anyway.

Must be the Harris memorial i had in mind, when it got placed many people in germany was upset.

It's the memorial I was talking about, you may have misunderstood, or perhaps I did not explain clearly. I was talking about people in the Baltic states who fought in the SS non-German units exactly as you set out. I wasn't making any comparison with the Germanic SS, or frankly even mentioning them. My reference was to those you mention who wanted to fight against the Soviets for the independence of their own country, and the only way they could see to do that was in the Waffen-SS "foreign units"

The point I was making is that there are other views about the second world war, and that is something we seem to agree about. I find it interesting that some people's views of the war are still set in a 1940s propaganda frame. The fact is there were a number of different wars/conflicts going on, and they are not all easily lumped together.

To return to Harris; many people are upset by his statue. It is regularly vandalised. I suspect it would not have bothered him much.

Thanks for the discussion.

Moggy DCM

I strongly agree with you.

I just was making the point that the memorial you mentioned is not a memorial to remined to the "foreign legion" or even "Waffen SS" in general. Not all baltic poeple who faught faught in the Waffen SS, they also faught in the Finnish army and there also was Partisan groups, fighting against russians and also germans, even after the war. Its more a general home defence memorial.

Iam not aware of a real "Waffen SS" or "foreign legion" memorial anywhere, that would be most tasteless, cause special groups of this "foreign legions" was more like the German SS, slaughtering civilians.

btw. i dislike that most people only talk about antisemitism in this relation, russians, homosexuels, handicapped people, political prisinors etc got slaughtered as well.

I agree with a lot of the posters at the original linked site. A memorial for the all of those who served and gave their lives within Bomber Command is well overdue.