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#3575461 - 05/19/12 06:13 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 871
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maybe I am confused because when we (FCO) transfered the tracking to the AI trackers, green RS lights are lit all the time (probably because they show us (FCO), that we are not in bussiness and not only that the system is in RS) and it seems that there is only RS (which I wrongly tought that is AS. The point is that I cannot distinguished when we are on RS or AS...  About the killing zone - the pictured showed the killing zone in T/T mode of the missiles against a different speeds of the target. It is clear that SA-2 cannot achieve more than 16 km height against target faster than ~800 m/s.
Edited by piston79 (05/19/12 06:15 AM)
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#3575467 - 05/19/12 06:36 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 1268
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That should already be present - T/T requires an increasing LOS rate that should exceed missile capability at some point, as the LOS rate increases due to increased elevation angle (and thus crossing angle) and reducing range (ditto). At the same time the missile performance is reducing because of falling velocity and air-density.
On the other hand a lead-pursuit course has no limitation - so long as the missile can reach the target altitude it is possible to 'park' the missile ahead of a non or poorly manoeuvring high speed aircraft.
I think these 'limitations' are also not sharply defined, but describe probability and energy contours - the performance "outside" the envelope may not be significantly worse than inside, but be considered inefficient.
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#3575474 - 05/19/12 06:56 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: piston79]
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Member
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Hungary, Europe
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maybe I am confused because when we (FCO) transfered the tracking to the AI trackers, green RS lights are lit all the time (probably because they show us (FCO), that we are not in bussiness and not only that the system is in RS) and it seems that there is only RS (which I wrongly tought that is AS. The point is that I cannot distinguished when we are on RS or AS... In reality, the Manual Trackers should shout "Epsilon AS!", "Beta AS!", "Range AS!", when they switch from RS. No other feedback for the FCO.
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3575481 - 05/19/12 07:28 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Lieste]
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Member
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Hungary, Europe
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That should already be present - T/T requires an increasing LOS rate that should exceed missile capability at some point, as the LOS rate increases due to increased elevation angle (and thus crossing angle) and reducing range (ditto). At the same time the missile performance is reducing because of falling velocity and air-density.
On the other hand a lead-pursuit course has no limitation - so long as the missile can reach the target altitude it is possible to 'park' the missile ahead of a non or poorly manoeuvring high speed aircraft.
I think these 'limitations' are also not sharply defined, but describe probability and energy contours - the performance "outside" the envelope may not be significantly worse than inside, but be considered inefficient. This is why HABU always flying a curve in the firing zone of the SA-2. (lead point is never stable) 
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3575515 - 05/19/12 09:36 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 1268
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Besides SA2 "Dvina" did hit the Habu (at least) once. So it is not an impossibility. How much better it could have done with better understanding of the performance/targeting requirements is not certain, but immunity is confirmed as unavailable. The light damage received could have been more serious had it hit a critical component, rather than an unimportant area of the wing fillet.
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#3575742 - 05/19/12 06:07 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 871
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Besides SA2 "Dvina" did hit the Habu (at least) once. Yep, but bet it is not in T/T mode... As the pilot itself describes the missile path - definitely not T/T... but immunity is confirmed as unavailable Still they not afraid to overfly Libya no matter presence of "Volhov" In reality, the Manual Trackers should shout "Epsilon AS!", "Beta AS!", "Range AS!", when they switch from RS.
Same with NEVA (where FCO is a range tracker), but still he has a light on his panel.... How it is on the SIM (how AI behaves in the SIM?)...
Edited by piston79 (05/20/12 03:27 PM)
Edit Reason: SA-3
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#3576628 - 05/21/12 10:07 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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farokh
Member
Registered: 04/22/12
Posts: 611
Loc: IRAN
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What officially happened to the Shilka?Systems currently simulated are too complex to be operated by terrorists. I would really like to avoid the SAMSIM to be called a "Terrorist Training Tool", and the Shilka is only requiring few people to shot a plane... ... also its not a SAM.  I was able to extract from this piece is a joke ....i thinked talk about this at older page!! i most repeat because i thin u guys forget it for future!!! terrorrist at east or west wourld never used for themself operation!! because shilka loock like a big machine so doing hiding for this system away from nato eyes is so harD !!! so we can extract a new result! trorrist never used shilka because this system is like a big machine!!! themself use always ilga or stinger .... some like theesee because this systems is very easily to use than shilka .. shilka is a big machine like a tank ! and cant no where hided from weseals nato pilot !
Edited by milang (05/21/12 10:10 AM)
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#3576705 - 05/21/12 01:05 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 1268
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ZSU23-4 and all the other mobile AAA/tactical SAMs are autonomous units - one or two men can operate the weapons system, a third can make it mobile and effective from the short-halt.
This is very different from the massive fixed infrastructure or column of vehicles needed to employ any of the existing SAM types.
A single vehicle is fairly easy to place into a hide position, and with optical channels and possible employment in 'non-warzones' where SEAD is non-existant it could be a serious threat.
Additionally the training in how to target a given target (sight picture, lead angle, range etc, would also apply to the ZU23, and to a lesser extent the ZU4, which are much more common and 'tactically' diverse than an AFV.
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#3576765 - 05/21/12 02:26 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Junior Member
Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 89
Loc: baltics
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I think if there would be terror act against any plane (I hope it will never happen) that would most likely be manpad, especially now when huge amount of ilga's/strelas were looted from Gaddafi weapon stores by "rebels" and went to black market / over borders.
As i remember there was chinese airforce footage where they were using LockOn as training simulator. In ED forums devs admitted that they weren't aware of that. Who knows, maybe some air defense forces now are training on SAMSIM.
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