A Review of Desastersoft's Cliffs of Dover add-on Wick vs. Dumas by Fred "HeinKill" Williams

http://SimHQ.com/_air14/air_524a.html

Wonderful write-up HeinKill - thank you!

I think I'm going to give this a go. It certainly looks a challenge..

A fantastic amount of work has gone into it, but as I emphasised in my review, it is not for the feint hearted. You really have to like flying with complex engine management (which many on these forums do) to get anything out of the new career system. I found that my normal realism settings (ie just about everything full real except CEM and outside views) gave me a 'realism penalty' of 300%, which meant that if the mission target was to destroy 3 enemy aircraft, I would have had to destroy nine to get the same career points!

Using outside views seems to carry a particularly hefty penalty, and the manual also warns you to use only cockpit views for maximum career points. But I don't have track IR, and panning around with joystick hat is just naff, so yes, I use outside views.

That was a little disheartening as I was really looking forward to a career system along the lines of RoF, which lets the user decide how they want to play it, rather than enforcing realism settings.

But I can imagine if you are into CEM and have TrackIR, you'll love this add on!

Many of the missions are truly hard core, requiring you to navigate to an intercept point using compass and dead reckoning, which for me meant some missions where I missed the intercept and ended up just enjoying the view - though this was not too frequent because Desastersoft appear to have mastered the use of triggers, so that if you can get within distance of the battle area, the enemy aircraft are spawned.

When I put it to Thomas Voss that this hard core policy meant he was limiting the appeal (and therefore commercial return) on his products, because they were less appealing to casual simmers (ie not 'full real types', he said, "Yes, I know, but that's the way we do it, money isn't everything." Which you have to respect I guess.

One of the really great things for 'casual' simmers though, is that you don't have to play every mission in a campaign. The Desastersoft campaign interface lets you choose any mission in the package and fly it as a single mission. This is how I have been getting most fun out of it.

That, and peeking under the hood to see how they have constructed their missions! Mission developers who are into scripting, could no doubt learn a lot from looking at how Desastersoft designs their missions.

H

Bloody interesting review, Heinkill.

This is the product (and review) that's finally making me buckle up and buy CoD. I'm still a BoB2 lover at heart, but I've been itching for a reason to try CoD but could never see a reason (I'm strictly single player, so the bad campaign plus bad AI just killed it... now even if the AI sucks, the mission realism will be worth it).

I just hope I can use my printed Ordinance Survey maps for these missions, otherwise I hope I can use my kindle to read the new map.

Thanks again,

Itkovian

Very nice review, I'll have to check out that demo.

Always been frustrated with the Cliffs of Dover ai (even after tweaking the ai in the mission builder as per some recent threads). With this it sounds like playing as they designed it, staying in cockpit view only, navigating, dead is dead, etc. I might not notice it as much.

also, any idea why he named the company Desastersoft? Desaster means Disaster in English, right?

Great review Heinkill

I've had Wick v Dundas for about a week now and it's given CloD a whole new lease of life. Well worth it and I'm looking forward to the English version of 'Channel Battles'.

Loved the review HK, I'm dying at work now, can't wait to get home and buy this!

I did learn a couple of scary things, (I knew one already though):

1) you are a RAF flyer at heart

2) you don't go full real all the time?!?!
(Now I understand the difference in settings/AI routines when I play through your campaigns!)

Great write up.

I'm still a BoB2 guy, but this is one step closer!

It looked fantastic until I got to the part about the realism penalty for the career. Yeah, that's a deal-breaker for me. I don't fly full real, so that would mean I would have to outscore the highest Allied aces before I even got a minor medal/promotion... No thanks.

I find myself disagreeing with their statement on the most fun you get from a sim is playing full real. For me it is getting immersed in an accurate representation of the era, aircraft and weapons, but not having to worry about complex engine management and things like that. That I prefer to "simulate" by assuming my in-game avatar can manage it on his own.

I'm in that middle ground between hardcore simmer and arcadey flight crap gamer. A sim just won't appeal to me if it doesn't have a good "game" component to go with it. (pilot promotions, medals, tracked stats etc are a good start) Likewise an arcade flight game fails if it doesn't have some of the attractions of a sim. Like accurate aircraft and weaponry. (example being no FW-190s or ZEROs in a Battle of Britain game)

So yeah, I was seriously interested in this to add some of that "game" stuff I like to CLOD, but not anymore.

Try it and go baby-steps in upping the difficulty. I'm not sure if you fly online at all, or intend to, but since release, the vast majority of online players gravitate towards the full real servers. In fact, most times, 100% of the online population are on full real servers, and I've never seen a icons on or open views server with more people than ATAG has at the time.

It's a steep learning curve, but only for a short while until you get used to it. It probably took me a month back in IL-2 to become a full real flyer, but once you step off that cliff, you'll never go back.

Now I have a reason to buy CLOD, Looks great, will have to get.

Hehe, yes Tom is a man who doesn't do half things sim-wise. I remember when he was flying in the original Il-2 IOW and he "died" he gave himself a two-day timeout.

Really informative article Heinkill. Thank you.
Your original COD review helped me take the plunge with this sim and i might just try this.

I'm keeping a weather eye out for the 2.12 BOB2 update too.
S

Thx, not to go too far O.T. (but I will) BOBII patch 2.12 is progressing well in beta testing. We have a stable code base now with all the changes working to our satisfaction. Now we need to merge with new landscape and objects, retest the merge, compile and test the installer and we are good to go. Still on track for a summer release...

Back on topic - I got a PM from a person who believes I made too much out of the fact the career system rewards realism (or penalises non-full real settings). As they point out (and I agree), the new Desastersoft campaign system is still better than the default campaign system because:

a) you can play any mission you wish, if you don't want to play it all through, or, if you want to go back to a favourite mission
b) the system tracks where you land, and if you are wounded or not and grounds you appropriately
c) using some clever scripting, the 'ground controller' gives you radar/RDF vectors to the enemy

So even if you don't play full real, you get these benefits over the existing (or rather, non existing) campaign that ships with CoD

T

Comment from Desastersoft, for the record:

Hi Freddy!

Reading your review ;)-

One Thing is wrong: We had no influence on your difficult settings or any Game Settings! Whatever happened there, it belongs not to WvsD Add On

Cheers

Thomas

Which is strange, because after I installed WvsD I went into the realism menu to check my settings and all the boxes were unchecked. Apparently just coincidence, which does happen!

Impressive that third party content can be so well-integrated into the default UI.

I'm sold. Even your "could be better" items are positives in my view.

Sure, don't get me wrong. I just believe there is a middle ground which lets the user choose the degree to which they want to be penalised for not flying 'full real'.

The Desastersoft approach is to penalise players who don't fly full real by awarding them fewer points per kill (or requiring them to score more kills to get the same career points), than those who do fly full real.

Desastersoft argues that this is more 'fair'...why should you get the same points for a kill if you are using external padlock to keep your enemy in sight, rather than in cockpit views?

Fine, but the level of penalty effectively makes the career system irrelevant for non 'full real' flyers, because if you get a 500% penalty on your realism settings (and I am not talking arcade style 'no damage, unlimited ammo' but rather full damage, stalls and spins, map icons, limited ammo, external views), it means instead of needing two kills in a mission, you need 10!! Sorry, but that is just unachievable.

And in my opinion, the realism penalty is pointless when it is offline play! This is offline competition, not online with a leaderboard that garners bragging rights, so the player is only competing against themselves.

I would argue the best approach is to create a career system which is scalable, and encourages players to take on the full real challenge, while allowing them to enjoy the career system to the max, no matter what their preferred realism settings.

The Desastersoft approach is to say unless you fly full real, we are going to penalise you, and make it harder (darn near impossible) for you to be promoted and get medals.

I simply didn't/don't get that.

Sorry, i wont get in that, but your Statement is Wrong Freddy.

You do not have to get 10 Kills in a Mission in that way. Thta is impossible. Kill counts and Promotion Points are NOT counted by Mission. They are "Over All" the Campaign! Thatīs a big difference. Also the Mission Win ability is not up to your choose of Difficult settings. The Penalty ist EVER to the whole Campaign. Not to a Mission.

Please no Roumors.

Cheers
Thomas

I have to say, I'm with Mr. Voss on this one, even though I think "Anthropomorphic Controls" should not be included, as there's definite hardware issues that force a lot of people to play with this off. My X52 has enough play in the rotaries, and slider, that I can't use Anthro and consistently do anything...

I stand corrected and duly apologise for my misinterpretation.

However do I still understand it that to win the Wick campaign, instead of 43 kills, a penalty of 500% would mean you need >200 kills to win the campaign?

H

Freddy, i do really not know who told you that. We ever talked about Medals and Promotion, not winning Options. 43 is 43. If you have in Full Real Iron Cross, you have to kill 5 Enemys. With 500% Iron Cross at 25 because of Arcade Gaming. Thats all.

hi thomas

thanks for the clarification. you have just confirmed that at full real settings, an iron cross requires 5 kills, but at what you call arcade settings, it requires 25.

that is exactly what i pointed to in my review, and which in my opinion, reduces the attractiveness of the career and medals system for anyone except full realism simmers.

yes, the career system still works, but the penalty is so high it is not attractive to players who do not fly full realism. 25 kills for an iron cross is simply unachievable by most casual simmers, and those are the ones using lower realism settings.

i fully recognise your hard core philosophy and your right to optimise the game for players who enjoy full real simulation play. it is your product, and your right to leave money on the table by not opening your career system to be accessable or attractive also to those you call arcade players.

but there are many who do not fly full realism as you define it, and therefore i highlighted this element of your career system as a possible concern for those players. i still think it is a valid point to make.

It is a valid point Heinkill

The full real approach is just simply not a fun way to play offline. I do play with most full real settings but i always leave my camera views open as i like to take outside screenshots, so because of that i will incur a penalty ? makes little sense. If there was a way they could make a novice, intermediate and full real campaign then that would be a better option. But having to despatch 25 for the Knights Cross because of some unticked personal preference options seems extremely harsh.

That aside it looks a brilliant bit of kit and something that CloD was sorely lacking.

But remember, awards are not the goal of the campaign, successfully completing missions, and surviving are. Microsoft has done a terrible thing with the proliferation of X-box Achievements throughout the gaming industry.

Exactly... I haven't got more than ten missions into the Wick campaign in two attempts so far because I died (crashed on landing with damage, and spun in at low alt during a dogfight) so medals are the last thing on my mind so far! Surviving would be reward enough!

Yes but it would be nice if you survived the whole campaign..maybe only getting 6 kills and thus also the knights cross.

Thought I would check out the recent WvsD patch/update and see how the radio commands now work. Made a little video, of a typical Wick vs Dundas mission. You'll see the wonderfully busy airfields, nicely scripted mission, and a little surprise - the mission is ostensiblty to bomb Rye RDF, but...well, as you'll see...the radio commands allow the mission designer to change things up for the player!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNJGzpHNb0M

Recommend watching full screen HD so you can read the radio text.

This is a very nice recreation of a historical mission by EpG 210 which put a broad span of British radar out of action...for about 24 hours. Mobile stations were up within hours and the RDF masts back on line the next day.

Mini version here, but you won't be able to read...

That's a nice video HeinKill - perhaps repost it in the Screens/Videos forum as well, it deserves more views

I hate to correct you, but even full real, you would not qualify for a Knights Cross with 6 kills. I believe that the lowest score ever required was 20 kills, and that was bumped up later in the war. I kind of agree at 6 kills you should at least have the Iron Cross 2nd class, which at times was rewarded on the first kill, and later awarded on the 2nd.

Still, this is a minor sticking point for an excellent addition to our broken game!

Yes that would make more sense Cheesehawk 2nd class , if only for surviving the campaign with a few kills. I agree that it is an excellent addition, bodes well for future immersion in offline play.