Following up Ray's comment ...

Many have wondered what would have happened of the July plot had succeeded.

These were my ideas ...

In the Wolf's Lair Adolf Hitler lay dead.

In Berlin the Army was completing the round up of the SS.

General Beck had had been sworn in as Chancellor .....

What was the result?

The July Government's peace offer to the western allies was unacceptable
The war had to continue because the new German government had to defend itself and its home territory.
The defence was rather more efficient because:

1) The military were now in charge of the campaign which was conducted logically and efficiently
2) Speer continued with the rationalisation of the economy unhindered
3) The end of the Jewish persecution freed up enormous resources which were now available for conduct of the war
4) New policies in occupied eastern territories (Ukraine etc) brought hew allies against Russia
5) New industrial policies switched priorities to king tiger tanks, Uboats, jet aircraft & bombers, atomic weapons and V3

The situation is that Germans achieve atomic weapons and can deliver via V3 to US. They demonstrate use in Russia by taking out Stalingrad.

They now threaten use in UK/US.

What happens?

Moggy DCM

Hi Peter,

Interesting "what if". Certainly a couple of documentaries I have seen and books I have read suggest that SOE/MI5 or MI6/SIS - whatever you want to call them - had looked at asassinating Hitler and thought there was a reasonable chance of a sniper taking him out when he went for his daily walk when staying at Berchtesgaden. However it would likely be a suicide mission and by late 1943/early 1944 was cancelled, apparently because it was though either that killing him would make him a martyr and stiffen German resistance, or more probably because our intelligence services using Ultra had decided his meddling with the army actually worked to our advantage.

Whatever the case, your scenario could be correct, but equally so could the one that with Hitler and presumably Goebbels, Goering and Himmler out of the way and the army in charge, they might have decided they were on a hiding to nothing and negotiated peace. We will never know.

Cheers,

Pete

Interesting thoughts, but in mid 1944 the allied already was incredible strong, while the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe was surrounded and almost destroyed.
In mid 1944 there was already a to big education gap. You cant win a war with bad educated rookis, it need at least two years to train new worthy pilots and tank commanders, still they miss experience and would get slaughtered by the hordes of experienced enemys.
Fuel was another big problem, same like missing other resources, like alloy and cupper.
If the putsch would have been in early 1943, before Stalingrad and El Allamain, maybe.
Actually iam happy that the putsch wasnt successfull, germany still would have lost the war, but then the Militair, not the nazis would have got spoken responsible for this. Another "Dolchstoß myth" would have been born, like after WWI. The old and specialy a new generation of Nazis would claim that the war only was lost cause the Generals killed the so great Führer.
Still there are stupid people who denie the holocaust.

Interesting thoughts chaps. I think it comes down to how much a rationalisation of the war fighting by the professionals (retreats in good order and no more fighting to the last man orders) and a radical reordering of economic and industrial priorities would have enabled sufficient delay of the allied advance to create other technical/stratiegic possibilities.

The debate goes on about a potential German atomic weapons capacity. But this is clear. If Heisenberg as he later claimed, delayed the programme because of the nature of the Nazi regime, post-July he would no reason to continue the delay, and once Germany had a nuclear weapon, a conventional end to the war would have been unlikely.

Heisenberg was as keen as others to get a "nuclear burner" running. His emphasis was on a source of energy rather than a weapon. Germany was years behind in the developement and could not have caught up by a coup.

Germany was monitored by aerial recon and any large facility for isotope sepatation would become an immeadiate target. Heavy water supplies were severed by allied special ops. Graphite was not even under consideration.

And most of all, Heisenberg was a theoretical physicist, who was trying to figure the matter out the way a theorist does - which is not fast!

They would not have had a bomb. Not even in 1946.

We would have had the bomb as well , the Japanese were on their last feet at this stage so we could have saved them for use in Europe if need be. The allied bombing effort would have more than likely zeroed in on any nuclear facilities the Germans had, i dont see how they could have come out on front still. May have prolonged hostilities but the end result would not be much different.

I think the only way the Germans could have made a big enough history changing difference is to knock Russia out of the war before the Normandy landings and really before the end of 43.A nuke on Stalingrad would not have been enough to make Stalin quit imo.

There is a much overlooked and very difficult to forecast option: What if Germany had not started the war? How would the world be today?

With Hitler in power a war was probably inevitable - his very raison d'etre was the claim to living space in central and eastern Europe. Had he simply gone against the USSR the rest of the world would probably have passed by on the other side. No enthusiasm in Britain, France or the US for propping up the Bolshevik regime. Not impossible that Germany would in fact have had tacit support, or even active support from international volounteers. USSR too.

He still had the opportunity to do this after conclusion of the campaign in Poland. It was plain that Britain and France under Chamberlain and Daldier were not going to take any serious offensive action unless attacked. Hitler could simply have ignored the western allies and thrown most of his resources against Russia. Had this occured I have no doubt that the USSR would have gone down - or retreated into the Siberian forest which amounts to the same thing.

With the passage of time Germany would have become a nuclear weapons state and the result would have been stalemate probably existing in one form or another to our current time. The passing of the Nazi old guard, economic realities and the need to trade would probably have brought about some form of detente by this point.

Thats way too many what ifs

1. If Germany would not have started the war...There would more than likely have not have been a war No one else was looking for so called living space.

2. Britain would possibly still be a force to be reckoned with on the world stage.

3. America would possibly not be the dictator of so much that it is ( although that era is clearly coming to an end )

4. Russia ..well, thats a wild thought, constant bad leadership, who knows ?

5. Tirpitz holed up in a fjiord somewhere still annoying Churchill

"3. America would possibly not be the dictator of so much that it is ( although that era is clearly coming to an end )"

To be replaced with whom?

China?

Good luck with that.

Our last dictator in germany dont got replaced and we are quiet happy with it.

Yeah, you're lucky it turned out as well as it did.



As for the waning powers of the USA, if I were in the Pacific region right now I don't think I'd be too happy about the possibility.