How much money would it take donated to 777 studios to get the tail gunners fixed? Just looking for a ball park figure Jason cause I am willing to do a donation drive to get this fixed asap!

Oh, right...you mean the "overshoot-spin-around-and-get-stuck-facing-the-side-of-the-aircraft-instead-of-at-the-enemy" tendency of the rear gun position in 2-seaters or bombers...

Yeah, I love it, too.

When I think of fixing gunners, I think of "make them unable to put a bullet between my eyes from 200 yards while pulling 3 Gs".

Tail Gunners seem fine to me.

Sure, I've been bloodied up and/or oil leaked...but that only happens when I press a poor attack, they're easy enough to avoid.

...even from the other perspective, without using my 2-seater's fixed-forward, my gunner always averages around a four percent accuracy rating.

HARDLY A SNIPER IN ANYONE'S BOOK!

...conclusion?

Folks just need to quit flying so straight when attacking the heavies!

Nutin' is what I would consider broken.


meh...

*shrug*

Try flying a two seater a while. They aren't the snipers that most people seem to make them out to be. I survive MUCH longer when I have a good human gunner instead of the AI gunning. Yes, every once in a while they seem to make an impossible shot, but I've seen the same happen with front guns on fighters too. My AI tailgunners usually average between two and five percent accuracy. A friend and I were just on the Syndicate server and he flew gunner for me. He had FORTY PERCENT accuracy.

There's a mod to affect tail gunner sniping here is this what you meant?

Currently our rear gunners do not have to manually reload their weapons, which was a big deal for the Lewis gun (every 97 rounds), and sort of a big deal for the parabellum (every 250 rounds). I don't see that as a small detail that is missing.

Complaints about AI snipers just come back to the fact that we fire friggn' laser beams in RoF, not bullets.

I dont mean the sniping. Anyone who has flown one or gunned in the back knows that the only sniping is from the AI.

What I am talking about is this.



The problem is that you do not directly control the gun. You control an aiming point that the gun swivels to at it's own leisure. If you place that aiming point (which you can not see in realistic mode) in a position where the gun can not aim to then the gun freaks out and points to a direction randomly away from the invisible aiming point. Then you run into the situation where the gun is no longer tied to the mouse because the pointer for the mouse is an invisible aiming point nowhere near where the gun is aiming. So you are frantically trying to get the gun to swivel back to where you were aiming and then the mouse locks up and the gun wont move.

I propose that the "wasd" keys control the ring movement directly a and d would turn the ring left and right and the ring would swivel freely instead of locking up after 40X degrees of rotation. The w and s keys would control the vertical height adjustment at a slower speed (while locking the gun movement so that you cant adjust the hight and still shoot the gun.) Then the mouse would control the gun directly as if in a first person shooter. There would also need to be some dispersion added for any sort of g-force from the pilot.

The problem with the current tail gun system is that it is not intuitive. You are not moving the gun when you move the mouse you move an invisible pointer which can get caught on things, lock up or send the tail gun veering off in a crazy direction unrelated to the invisible pointer.

I would rather have the gun movements directly controlled by the player and have the guns less accurate as would everyone I have talked with about this problem.

I understand that these guns were not easy to use but they were also not as defunct and what we have now. I have in fact used a very similar system mounted on the top of a truck bed and it was very easy to use and the gun always pointed where I wanted.

I am also serious. I am willing to pay money to have this problem fixed. I have bought the game (iron cross and a few cl2/dfw/gothas) for about 20 people the last 2 months and each one has pretty much walked away from the game over their hatred of the tail gunners. No one wants to gun for them because the gunner position is so unintuitive. This is a broken feature of the core game. When it first came out I chalked it up to needing refinement or patching but then it was never readdressed.

How much to readdress it? Or is this something that will never change? Because if that is the case you are loosing out on a large group of potential customers who fly bombers and 2 seaters.

I am also completely fine with adding more restrictions to the gunners. They need to not all be 500rd belt driven guns with the belts hidden in 50rd drums.

Also while we are at it the gunner needs to be able to use the 2d instruments for the clock, compass as well as be given access to some more advanced instruments like a pocket altimeter and Anemometer as well as access to the flare pistol.

Generally speaking the gunner needs to be able to navigate the plane and give enough information to the pilot inside the bombsite so that he does not have to jump in and out of the site. I would prefer even more if the gunner (where appropriate) did the bombsite but I dont think that is possible at the moment.

Maybe release a field mod pack for the gunners that gives them access to some extra instruments. They do need at least the clock and compass though in the 2d instruments.

Hmmm, that sounds like hyperbole to me.... - Do your friends only want to be gunners? - They don't actually fly the planes?

Out of the 17 copies I have bought the only people who have stayed are the people who also fly fighters. I cant get the rest to play or buy more planes because they don't feel that the tail gunners are useful. The AI is bunk and gunning for someone is a lesson in patience because of the listed reasons. The bombers are just not fun to fly by yourself and if none of your friends want to gun for you then you are left with random strangers who tend to reenact scenes from Indiana Jones movies more than they help.

Flying a bomber is a community experience. That is why you had large warbirds, aces high and il2 bomber squads. They enjoyed flying and gunning for each other. A 2 hour flight is nothing when you have friends on TS to joke with but if you remove the gunners through a poor experience then you remove the bombers. That is just the nature of the beast. Many of these people dont like fighters and dont want to fly a plane with the AI gunners.



That is 6 people who wont play rise of flight and who wont buy the bombers or 2 seaters because of issues with the gunners. I have other keys (second amazon account, fspilotshop, and paypal so people can buy straight from rof.com) I bought as well and most of them feel the same way. I cant even get them to play a game I bought for them because the bomber experience is so poor and the only real complaint I hear is the abysmal gunner support. They dont want to fly alone and no one wants to gun so they dont even log into the game.

On the plus side the people who like fighters love the game and I can normally get them to fly 2 seaters and bombers or at least escort me.

If I knew 777 studios was willing to revisit the gunner model and I had a reasonable price I would be more than willing to donate money to get the gunner model changed. If I cant donate I could at least buy x amount of plane gifts or ice keys and give them out.

*maybe I am just being irrational about this and it isn't worth wasting time on. Personally I feel the gunner is a core feature that is broken and needs fixing. I also know of a lot of other people who feel the same way.

Guns aim just fine if you don't put your cheek on the sight.

So it works just fine as long as you dont look down the site.

That is pretty much an acknowledgment that it is broken.

I don't know if it's broken or not, but I'm pretty certain that observers were not able to hold their head directly behind the sight as they fired at all angles. The "nestle up" view is pretty arcade.

How exactly do you want the gunner controls changed?

I agree that the system is broken to a degree but if anything MP people seem to want gunning from the back seat to be made harder rather than easier. If you take away the current limitations on movement speed then gunning from the flexi mounts will be very very easy. I suppose you could increase the dipersion to extreme levels then people will just complain they can't hit anything.

What I would like to see is

1) The traverse problem fixed, where you get stuck facing front and have to press F5 to re-set.
2) A "brace" key added. Meaning that if you don't sit down when your plane goes close to inverted then you risk falling out.

I want to control the gun directly. Imagine playing a fps where the gun lags 1/2-1 seconds behind your mouse movements. No one likes that and I cant for the life of me figure out why its acceptable in rof. Using a real ring mount is no where near as hard as using the in game system.

I am not saying to speed up the ring movement either just make it so that the player controls when it moves and how much. There are a few problems with the current system because the ring movement is 1) limited to 270 degrees of movement and 2) automatic depending on where the gun is facing.

The first limitation can obviously be fixed somehow because the gun can already make an unlimited turn. If you reach the limit all you have to do is turn the other direction fast enough and the gun will turn opposite how you turned.

the second limitation has to do with the automatic movement system. There are times when a place is sitting behind your tail and you can reach them if you rotate the ring left or right and then face the gun there but with the current system it is not very intuitive since you can not directly move the ring.

As for accuracy and dispersion... that really should be a setting that can be altered by a server along with AI values. You are never going to find a balance where accuracy is agreed upon by everyone. To be fair though I dont think accuracy is that much of a problem. The problem I have lies in the fact that the gunner is almost unplayable and certainly not fun to use with it's current flaws.

I agree with Master. Something really needs to be done. My buddy and I love to multicrew and the machine guns are a game ruiner at preset. He gets real fed up real quick. If you nestle to the sight, it's even worse!

They know its jacked up and buggy, and they will never fix it. They either don't know how, or its too big of a coding problem to do it. Screw em, let em go the way of the dodo bird. If they aren't selling you a plane, or adding useless eye candy, they aren't interested in fixing real game play problems.

OK, I take your point Master. I had no idea gunning was such a big part of the game to some.

Exactly. So we can go play one of those other Great War air combat simulat.... oh.

Oh, really?

Their business model does not really give a lot of room for engine modifications that wont bring in more paying customers. I hope that they can see that fixing the gunner would bring in more customers though.

Right now any free account can gun for someone. First thing that they do is learn that they can blow their own wing/tail off. That ends with the pilot cussing them out and either locking them out or kicking them out of the next flight. Then they learn that the whole gunner system is extremely screwed up in that when you least expect or want it to, shooting at an enemy plane, it acts the worst and prevents you from doing the only thing the gunner CAN do and that is shoot the enemy.

So you come out of your demo of the game thinking wow if the gunner is this screwed up why should I even stay let alone buy things for this game.

How is that a good thing for the sim? How do you expect to recruit paying customers like that? My mind is baffled at how this has not been fixed for so long.

The vast majority who come to RoF are interested in flying, not playing a FPS in the air. Still, you are right that it could be a turn off for some.

Some have said that RoF has gone overboard with graphical enhancements instead of improving the simulation side of things. Hopefully that will change in the future. We're still hoping for correct wind vector resolution, Lewis and Parabellum guns (a big deal for those who like to gun from the observer's seat), flight model reviews, and so on. Maybe Luke knows something we don't know, but for now I haven't seen indication that these things are going to be improved in our beloved sim.

Hey, you have stated your case and you seem to have a good one, so don't ruin it by becoming unnecessarily whiny and repetitive. There's a fine line between raising a valid compaint and getting into non-productive incessant whining (like some sad gits have done in the past). No need to go down that road.

As I am sure you realise there ARE very many balls to keep in the air when you are the developer of a fringe sim with a rather small customer base. Respect that they have priorities. I am sure they have noted your issue down, now it is time to step respectfully back and let them deal with it as they seem fit (imho). Anything else is just not productive...

IMHO, they've done a very good job of balancing improvements to the underlying engine with profitable content (ie. things they can actually sell in order to stay in business).

However, it would be great to have additional controls for the gun rings, better modelling of g-force effects, wind - and especially - gun recoil, on how easy it is to move the gun.

Lets fix the gunners, so when the plane is rolled inverted they fall out. Or when the pilot yaws like he has restless leg syndrome they knock themselves out with the weapons. Or when the pilot pulls back too hard the gunner is too busy trying to not go through the belly side of the plane's fabric. or.....

The observer/rear gunner is broken, just less in the direction some want it to be "fixed."

Sure ?

You either have information we don´t have, or you are talking b...sh.t. If you have free time, make a list of all fixes of "real game play" they made in the last 3 years. It will not fit on one page.

You think the real gunners of WWI were all suicidal idiots? - They strapped themselves in for combat, so they wouldn't fall out. They trained hard to be able to defend their plane in turning combat, because, ehhh, their life actually depended on it, you know?

Frey, he was just making a point...

Yes, I was trying to show that there are all sorts of things wrong with the rear gunner but people only want the ones that make it easier.

However, I have read several books where planes hit atmospheric conditions that caused some extreme maneuvers that left the observer/gunner hanging onto his weapon or dangling over the side.

I am more then accepting of things that adversely affect the gunner as long as we can also fix the core problems with the gunner.

This kind of appeal to common sense is not a valid form of argument, especially when dealing with events from 100 years ago during the dawn of aviation. The remark about "training hard" also belies the reality of WW1 air crew training, where boys were thrown into combat with less than 20 hours of flight time.

Anyway, there was a huge discussion about this at the RoF forum. Historical evidence is that gunners were not always strapped in, and some were thrown from the aircraft. One anecdote in particular describes the gunner aiming with one hand and holding onto the aircraft with the other when the aircraft was in a turn.

If this seems crazy, remember that these guys weren't wearing parachutes, and their aircraft were doped with highly flammable resin.

A point Master also brings up is a way to address fixing core game problems. Right now there may not be incentive to do so because there is no income to pay for such things. It makes sense to make a new plane or field mods because they can sell them to pay for the development. But how can they fund the time needed to improve core features of the game? Not only gunners being fixed, but a better interface and squad features etc.
So if it takes some dedicated supporters to help fund this, is that possible?

As far as the guns, there are only two things a new player can do when they first get the demo. Either fly one of the provided fighter planes with the demo, or gun.
A new player will take some time to get good flying the fighters. So they will want to try the other one thing they can do which is gun. Everyone I talked to runs into the same issue with the weird gun control. It doesn't feel realistic at all. If it's going to feel so detached from feeling your are actually controlling the gun, then you might as well add unrealistic accuracy instead and have a better feel of control of the gun itself. This would be less of a turn off to new players and vets as well.

I would also contribute to the development of fixing these core game problems that are being overlooked if that's a possibility.
Maybe it could be funded by selling something like a small custom personalized patch or insignia that you could put on your plane. Something that would also show you are a supporter. I would pay $100 for an approved personalized insignia that I could add to my fuselage for instance.

100 bucks is a way too steep but other than that I think this is a really good idea!
What I would pay 100 bucks for though is a livery editor alà Forza Motorsport 4, basically you just form layers out of squares, circles, triangles etc and create your own logo`s and themes (In this case you can make your own lozenge pattern for example) put them on the vehicle (And the layers are saveable in a reference folder for future use on any other vehicle if you so wish): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0ntfmgbhOY&feature=related
This would completely eliminate the need for any skin approval and anyone with a bit of patience can paint up their aircraft exactly the way they want, and with the colors available to the players decided by what the devs would deem non useable for any sort of super stealth paintjobs there`d be no risk of exploiting the editor.

Oh and ya, gunner needs fixin`! (Doh)

The FM editor would be nice but honestly I think if we started with something more like RedBaron 3D had it would go over better.

Also, 100 bucks for a FM editor would be awesome. One thing you run into though is that if you allow both sides to customize their paints some people will go crazy with it and it will be hard to tell if it was an allied or cp plane. You could lock the insignias on the wings and tail but even that might be too much as you could overload the plane skin.

I think a RB3d editor would be a better choice. Give a bit less customization and still retain the feel for a personalized plane.

I just saw this post in the Screenshots forum:



Improved turret?!? Could this mean they are fixing the lousy turret controls?!?

I think he just means the turret upgrades IE special turret guns.

No I mean what I say. The turret no longer flips out when Nestled to Gunsght.

Did you not see my video?? So attentive everyone is.

http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=30284
http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=30284

Jason

FM editor will never happen.

Jason

Aye, and it's very nice indeed. It makes for a much for fun gunning experience.

I don't particularly feel the gunner controls are that bad.
You just need to have good control of the mouse.
Throwing a gun around in the back of one these planes wasn't easy.
If I could just point and click I'd be disappointed.
But as it is now you can "feel" the weight of the gun. Takes skill to fill the rear gunner role.
Just as it should be.
I just wish the AI had a hard time with it too.

Most excellent news!! This will make me and my friends who like to be my gunner very very happy.

Is this (gun fix) in the next patch? I just tested it, and its still screwed up.

This is pretty cool.

It's coming with the weapons mods, I think in June.

Yes it is planned for next update. We have not changed the Reticule View of the gunner position, only the Nestled View because that was the one with the big problem and I found out the one most users prefered. We still model the weight and inertia of moving the gun around and you can still glance over your shoulder with TrackIR, but it remains a bit sluggish as before. 90% of users don't care about that anyways in Nestled View. Just use your mouse and you should have no problem picking up and tracking targets in Nestled View.

There are still ways I think we can improve all gunner mechanics, but it requires a huge re-write and re-design that we don't have the time or resources for at the moment. Maybe someday, but now you can be a gunner and be effective without the gun locking up and doing odd things.

Let me also say that this is still in beta and anything can happen in testing.

Jason

Thanks Jason,

I hope Your team will make something to add more realism for gunners mechanic beacuse what could do gunner now in game is far from these.

Actually there are 3 main things which are against historical realism in ROF :

- unrealistic gunners effectivness and resistance for bullets. Gunners could shot from non realistic angles, during all manouvers and wear bulletproof west

- unrealistic shoting effectivnes at long ranges >300m

- some very questionable Flight Models

Correct these things and ROF would be the most realistic PC simulator i have ever played.

BTW i wonder what happend to FM revisions for older planes casue in 2 last patches there were not FM's fixes?

One way to improve the gunning experience would be to finally fix the lock joining button for MP. There is nothing quite like having locked the gunner position, yet still finding yourself magically teleported out of the gunner position while in the midst of combat.

Beyond frustrating at this point.