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#3551117 - 04/05/12 11:53 AM
.50 Browning in game effectiveness
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Member
Registered: 05/12/04
Posts: 1204
Loc: Italy
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 On the contrary of what shown by above diagram (from Anthony Williams data - "Power" takes in account both kinetic energy and, where applicable, explosive capacity), I find in game power of Browning M2 the lowest among 12.7 mm. I never was able to explode or tear off in pieces any EA by this weapon and kills appear always "hard", even with P-47 firepower. Instead, Ho-103 seems in game the most powerful of this calibre. Is there any tweaking? If yes, why? GB
_________________________
Ardisco, colpisco, meninfischio ("I dare, hit and do not care about it!" - Written on a SM 79 "Sparviero" during Spain civil war)
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#3551384 - 04/05/12 04:41 PM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Member
Registered: 01/15/07
Posts: 1355
Loc: Indiana, USA
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There have been revisions in the UP Mod addressing this. AFIK, officially, there's no problem. It will be interesting to see where this goes since this subject has been beaten to death over the years.
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#3551474 - 04/05/12 06:49 PM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/03/02
Posts: 3436
Loc: Canada
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Whats your testing methodology in game?
My feeling is the Berezin UB is the most powerful, with the Browning .50cal in close second, the MG131 and Ho103 essentially tied (I wouldn't be surprised if the Ho103 values are copy/pasted from the MG131 due to a lack of references for the Japanese gun), and the Breda below that.
The only issue I have with the Browning is the bonkers belting. It has a mysterious HE round in the mix and a lack of API rounds although from what I'm told by several who play with HSFX with the updated .50cal belting, not much changes when you go to that version.
As for snapping wings off... it happens less with the .50cal but it does happen. It almost never happens when fired from a dead 6 position. Instead it's the high or low pass attacks where I see major structural loss like a wing or fuselage. It also is highly dependent on the aircraft I'm shooting at. Zeros and Oscars will dewing with ease. FW190s will not so easily.. usually he's a flaming wreck before I get a wing off. Bf109s I tend to see a equal mix of tail failure and wing failure when hitting them with .50cals but it again tends to be more fire damage that gets them.
Many of the complaints over the years with the .50cal have been justified but some have not. I think there is a certain expectation fed by cherry picked gun camera sequences and over exaggerated combat reports. Just a few years later in the Korean war, pilots complained about the upgraded M3 .50cal not doing enough damage to down MiG-15s. I realize the MiG-15 is a different kettle of fish from a FW190 but it's interesting how quickly opinion soured on the weapon.
Edited by IceFire (04/05/12 06:53 PM)
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- IceFire Find my missions at Mission4Today.
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#3551646 - 04/06/12 04:46 AM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Member
Registered: 02/02/01
Posts: 1653
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It depends on where you got your value for "power". As from below, the Olegish; power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells). IL-2 models ballistics and strike angle and explosion and shrapnel, not just 1 number for kinetic and explosive power. So they are saying that a Browning 50 cal HE bullet has equivalent of 1.48g TNT. Have any docs that say different?
Author:
Oleg_Maddox
Rank:
Creator of IL-2
Sturmovik
Date:
08/14/02 12:56PM
Here is the direct table of shells and bullets from source code of IL-2.
Comments:
power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells).
T - Tracer bullet
AP - Armor-Piercing bullet
APT - Armor-Piercing with Tracer
API - Armor-Piercing Incendary
APIT - Armor-Piercing Incendary Tracer
HE - High-Explosive shell
HEI - High-Explosive Incendary shell
HET - High-Explosive with Tracer
HEIT - High-Explosive Incendary Tracer
MG - M-Geschoss, thin-shell High Explosive
such line destinated the sequence of shells/bullets:
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API
Table itself.
==========================
Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API
API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018
AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0
Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP
APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002
AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0
HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148
Hispano-Suiza Mk.I
// HET - AP - HE - AP
HE/HET
mass = 0.129
speed = 860.0
power = 0.012
AP
mass = 0.124
speed = 860.0
power = 0
M4
// HET - (APT/HET)
HET
mass = 0.604
speed = 612.0
power = 0.044
MG 131
// HET - AP - HE - AP
HE/HET
mass = 0.035
speed = 710.0
power = 0.00148
AP
mass = 0.034
speed = 750.0
power = 0
MG 15
// AP - AP - APT
AP/APT
mass = 0.0128
speed = 760.0
power = 0
MG 151
// HET - AP - HE - AP
HE/HET
mass = 0.057
speed = 960.0
power = 0.0019
AP
mass = 0.072
speed = 859.0
power = 0
MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036
HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044
MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186
MG 17
// AP - AP - APT
AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 810.0
power = 0
MG 81
// AP - APT
AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 920.0
power = 0
MG/FF
// APIT - HE - HE - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 580.0
power = 0.0036
HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 585.0
power = 0.0044
MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 690.0
power = 0.0186
MK 103
// APT - MG - MG - HE
APT
mass = 0.502
speed = 752.0
power = 0.0
MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 900.0
power = 0.072
HE
mass = 0.455
speed = 800.0
power = 0.024
MK 108
// HEIT - MG
HEIT
mass = 0.455
speed = 500.0
power = 0.024
MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 525.0
power = 0.072
NS-37
// HEIT - APT
HEIT
mass = 0.735
speed = 900.0
power = 0.0406
APT
mass = 0.760
speed = 880.0
power = 0
NS-45
// HEIT - AP
HEIT
mass = 1.065
speed = 780.0
power = 0.052
AP
mass = 1.000
speed = 850.0
power = 0.0
PaK40
// HEIT
HEIT
mass = 6.800
speed = 770.0
power = 0.680
ShKAS
// APIT - API - T - API
APIT
mass = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0.0005
API
mass = 0.0096
speed = 871.0
power = 0.0005
T
massa = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0
ShVAK
// APIT - HE
APIT
mass = 0.096
speed = 800.0
power = 0.001
HE
mass = 0.0676
speed = 800.0
power = 0.0068
UBS / UBT
// APIT - AP - HEI
APIT
mass = 0.0448
speed = 850.0
power = 0.001
AP
mass = 0.051
speed = 850.0
power = 0
HEI
mass = 0.0428
speed = 850.0
power = (0.00114+0.00128)
VYa
// SIT - API - API
SIT
mass = 0.195
speed = 890.0
power = 0.0156
API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008
API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008
-------------
If you'll ask why some bullets has TNT, its because they had explosive in warhead.
Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games
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#3551663 - 04/06/12 06:12 AM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Member
Registered: 05/12/04
Posts: 1204
Loc: Italy
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According to list posted by Neal, it looks there are only two true 12.7 mm in IL-2 inventory: M2 and UB, plus the similar MG131. Since M2 and MG131 are listed having same "power" (at least about HE/HEI shell), I think there are only two 12.7 mm guns modeled in game: M2, simulating also MG131 and UB, placed also in lieu of Breda-SAFAT and Ho-103. If so, I believe this would explain many odd things... Thanks, Neil for the tip.
Cheers,
GB
Edited by Greybeard (04/06/12 01:53 PM)
_________________________
Ardisco, colpisco, meninfischio ("I dare, hit and do not care about it!" - Written on a SM 79 "Sparviero" during Spain civil war)
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#3552109 - 04/06/12 08:33 PM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/03/02
Posts: 3436
Loc: Canada
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According to list posted by Neal, it looks there are only two true 12.7 mm in IL-2 inventory: M2 and UB, plus the similar MG131. Since M2 and MG131 are listed having same "power" (at least about HE/HEI shell), I think there are only two 12.7 mm guns modeled in game: M2, simulating also MG131 and UB, placed also in lieu of Breda-SAFAT and Ho-103. If so, I believe this would explain many odd things... Thanks, Neil for the tip.
Cheers,
GB Why do you say any of that? The MG131 has a distinct set of entries from the M2. I don't see anything significant shared. As for the Breda and the Ho-103 none of those are on this list because this list is from 2002... a couple of years before those machine guns were added to the game. We've never gotten a more updated list from Oleg or anyone else. There are some guns that are functionally substituted but not the ones listed here.
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- IceFire Find my missions at Mission4Today.
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#3552164 - 04/06/12 11:36 PM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Member
Registered: 02/02/01
Posts: 1653
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Again, straight from Oleg, power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells). If you dig in SFS, guess what company wrote the labels? You put your own meaning on the labels, mistakes you find are likely your own. Note in Oleg's Table that 131 has different data than the M2. Then note that different shells of the same gun may be different. My juice carton says it's made from concentrate. Is that because someone thought hard about juice?
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#3552210 - 04/07/12 05:07 AM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Member
Registered: 05/12/04
Posts: 1204
Loc: Italy
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Obsolete data, PICES of shells, juice carton... Sorry guys, I can't understand much of what you are saying.
Let's try to do base reasoning. Any DAMAGE is caused by an ENERGY. This is modeled in sims giving a value to energy of shell. If nobody knows energy numbers for guns (that's to say their projectiles) in IL-2, nobody can demonstrate that one gun is more or less powerful of another. Hope at least this can be shared.
_________________________
Ardisco, colpisco, meninfischio ("I dare, hit and do not care about it!" - Written on a SM 79 "Sparviero" during Spain civil war)
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#3552250 - 04/07/12 07:48 AM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Member
Registered: 02/02/01
Posts: 1653
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That note is from Oleg Maddox who didn't have to -guess- at how IL-2 works.
Look at the table. For each shell there is mass, muzzle velocity and (explosive) power.
The trajectories and slowing of projectiles is part of the game.
The angle of hit and relative velocities of projectile and target are part of the Damage Model calculations.
ENERGY.... KE and momentum happen at the hit, after the shot has slowed down a bit by air drag. Mass and Velocity, not majik number.
ENERGY.... TNT equivalent explosive power includes incendiary mix. Short name: power.
No need to guess, it was told years ago. It was told over and over down to specifics between Oleg-posts and patch update info, often with nice graphics, when the detail level was raised.
Have you ever run track playback with config set arcade=1?
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#3552293 - 04/07/12 10:08 AM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/03/02
Posts: 3436
Loc: Canada
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I found arcade=1 very illuminating when I first set that up. Definitely shows some of the behind the scenes actions and the distinct differences between types of shells impacting on a target.
Greybeard: Just to be clear... this data is old. The values are still relevant and the lines for each gun represent what is happening in the damage model. It gives us a clear idea of how much punch (kinetic and explosive) each shell in the belting for each gun does. We don't know a few of the specifics for the damage model in how they all interact but the bottom line is that all are judged by the same model. Whats less clear is some of the weapons that were added in the years after 2002 when this data was presented.
Edited by IceFire (04/07/12 10:09 AM)
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- IceFire Find my missions at Mission4Today.
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