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#3543169 - 03/22/12 11:43 AM Saitek X-65F vs Thrustmaster Warthog - My Initial Opinion  
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Doofie Offline
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Doofie  Offline
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Before I put my thoughts on the units, I will say that I'm not a long-time pilot. I've played a fair amount of IL2, although I've never really gone for online dogfights as I've not had great kit, thus been at a disadvange and taken too many shots from my six to make it a pleasurable experience. I've played Wings of Prey but despite it being quite pretty, I didn't enjoy the game too much. A few years back I used to play F-22 Raptor. In short, I'm not a massively-experienced flyer so please take this into account before forming your own judgement.


1. Out-of-the-box coolness

When you unbox a product, you get a feeling. Some items have a presence. In this instance, the Warthog wins - hands down. It's massively heavier than the X65F and I was taken aback at just how much heavier. Mounting the stick (which is almost as heavy as your average dumbell) on the base, just felt like quality. The throttle made me squeal with giddy excitement with all those switches and buttons.

In contrast, the X65F looked good and like it could do a job but when you put them side-by-side the Warthog is like a natural leader, when you have a captain in a football team and just by standing there, the presence puts him infront of everyone else.


2. Hand comfort

I don't have particularly big hands. It's never really been a problem; at least until I got the X65F and its gargantuan stick. It's certainly comfortable. I'd not doubt that but to be able to utilise all the hats on the stick would need someone of such massive, sausage-fingers I can't even imagine how it got through Saitek's ergonimics test. Was their chief-tester Nikolai Valuev? The construction is good, a hard metal and this does score points for the stick.

Meanwhile the Warthog has come from a real-world background. If you got in an A-10, you would have this stick in front of you. This means the manufacturers have had hundreds if not thousands of hands using it before it originally got put in the cockpit of a muti-million dollar aircraft. In the heat of the battle, you don't want your pilots getting all confused and fumbling around because the buttons are in the wrong place. All this means that it's been tested and tried so a wide range of hand sizes will have been taken into account. Thus, the Warthog boasts a very useable stick and all of the buttons are all within (reasonably) easy reach, even the top hat, unlike the X65F which needs two hands or a hands-off-stick approach, which therefore makes it no-longer a HOTAS.

Now the throttles. In terms of sheer comfort, the X65F is very comfortable. The buttons over the back are, for me, a little easier to control. The larger top gives, again for me, a comfier resting position. This isn't to say the Warthog's is uncomfortable, it's just not as comfortable.



3. Setup

For what it's worth, the setup on the Warthog was easier, just two USB cables and a stick to attach to a base.

The X65F needed the extra boxes adding and there are three cables from the throttle, one to go to the mode display box, one to the stick and one to the PC. Personally, the extra cabling looks a little untidy. Not a fan.



4. Just-turned-it-on coolness

I don't know if it's just me but Saiteks have always been a bit like a Botox-ridden, duck-faced porn star: similar "functionality" as any other product but there's too much done to the aesthetics and it's got out of hand. Think lights, colours and trying to look more expensive than it actually is (like the X52) - but it's fine if you're into that kind of thing. The X65F was quite a surprise for me in that a lot of the Saitek "Botox" wasn't there. The extra panel was there but that is genuinely functional. There's the light from the stick and that's it. Yes, acceptable.

In almost stark contrast, with a hint of hypocracy, the Warthog's stick had no lights but the throttle has a swathe of words lit up all over the panel. While these are technically lights, the lit words are cool. I know, I know having just said that too many lights was a bad thing but this has been done with style and purpose and as a result isn't over-bearing.


5. First fiddle

On the X65F, the safe switch with the red button underneath is cool. I know it's tacky and bordering on Botox but there really is something awesome about having your master arm/eject in there. I can't help but give this setup a bonus point for appealing to the inner child in me. Buttons, hats and the mini-stick are quite easily reachable.

The throttle on the X65F loses a lot of points. It's stiff when cold as the grease prefers a warm(-er) room. You can adjust it with a screwdriver or use force to loosen it. Even after doing that, the unit still needs securing to your desk/pit. In a dogfight, this thing will slip and slide, no question.

The Warthog's throttle has the tensioner, which I preferred to be a little stiffer to give a great feel of feedback. I can't ever imagine a situation where the unit would move when altered the throttle. Surely it's too heavy!

However, the sticks are where there is a real dichotomy in functionality. The Saitek is force sensing and it takes a while to get used to but once you do, it's a very nice function. I got to really enjoy it and found it to be a real boon. Switching between the force sensitivity modes (of which there are four) is also handy.

The Warthog is traditional. It moves and affects the game action in accordance with relative movement. Having used force sensing, going back to movement is hard. I prefer the force sensing in terms of actual functionality. Personal opinion, I genuinely would give the nod to the X65F for this.


6. Small print for the Warthog

You basically HAVE to buy pedals. It has no rudder functionality whatsoever. You will have to bind it to some part of the throttle, which is just madness. So in real terms after paying £250~, you'll need to buy pedals which then brings your total to £300+.


7. Small print for the X65F

I had no end of trouble with the calibration of the X65F. If I left the stick idle, deadzones set and went to watch the first half of a football match, I would come back to find the centre-point was over to the left. Moving the stick changed the centering, too. I tried two different units. Same problem. I went through Saitek's support and they advised to only really use force modes 2 and 3, which basically renders 1 and 4 useless. Effectively, you have to be constantly moving the stick around and applying pressure. Even then you don't have full confidence in what you're telling the computer is actually what is happening.

With the stick, you can fix it to your desk, use the Velcro pads or whatever then you'll have no issue with it turning or coming away from your desk. This is fine if you have a pit but if it's just on your desk temporarily while playing then you'll have problems.



7. Summary

The Warthog is the better stick, with all the "quirks" (read: design faults) of the X65F taken into account, by a country mile. Spend the extra £20-30 and try and get some pedals. Save yourself the time, effort, hassle and disappointment and AVOID THE SAITEK X65F. Better force-sensing joysticks will be made in the future and I can nearly guarantee it won't be made by Saitek.


Buy a Warthog:
- If you want a good, solid stick and probably what is as good as it gets
- If you accept you will basically need to buy pedals if you don't have them
- If you want a joystick with thousands (if not millions) of dollars in R&D behind it
- If you want what is the better joystick

Buy an X65F:
- If you aren't flying helicopters
- If you can fix the stick and throttle to your pit/desk
- You have hands the size of shovels
- You can deal with the crazy calibration of it
- You are mental


All above thoughts are my own and a personal opinion, if you have different ones, congratulations - this doesn't automatically make mine wrong. Debate with me by all means but don't argue.

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#3543179 - 03/22/12 11:53 AM Re: Saitek X-65F vs Thrustmaster Warthog - My Initial Opinion [Re: Doofie]  
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scottyoz Offline
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Brisbane Australia
Awesome Doofie that is a great write up and exactly what I was looking for. I own an X65F (and an X52 Pro), but I am seriously looking at the Warthog; as I just brought DCS A-10. I have the combat pedals as well, so your guide has confirmed the inevitable for me......I have to get the Warthog!

Thanks for the comparassion guide, it's a huge help.

Regards

Scottyoz


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#3543295 - 03/22/12 03:21 PM Re: Saitek X-65F vs Thrustmaster Warthog - My Initial Opinion [Re: Doofie]  
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Wrecking Crew Offline
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Wrecking Crew  Offline
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Colorado
Doofie,
I'm glad you had a great first impression!

Same opinion here, too, about the TM Warthog, as well as the DCS A-10C.

Wrecking Crew


crew

#3548337 - 03/31/12 10:07 PM Re: Saitek X-65F vs Thrustmaster Warthog - My Initial Opinion [Re: Doofie]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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Reticuli Offline
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Reticuli  Offline
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Dayton, OH, USA
It's definitely the PS/2 cable between the stick and throttle to blame for the calibration issues. It's insufficiently shielded and needs some ferrites along the length of it. No doubt about that anymore. Unfortunately, it's fixed to the throttle, so you'll have to physically mod the stick to replace it with something better. This is a problem with DJ controllers at the 10 and 14-bit resolution level. I don't know why that is, but once you get into those levels of res, you need really good quality cables to prevent issues. Ditto on 10bit Xbox controllers. I've only previously required that with USB, but this PS/2 connection is to blame here. A $300 HOTAS fouled up by a $1 cable.

Oh, and while I think the fixed-wing piloting aspects of pressure sensing are overrated, it does work well from the standpoint of helo AFCS and Trim Update, since there is reduced latent input once you release the pressure and the auto-trimming adjusts. No need for delays, input turning off until stick is recentered, or any other remedy. It feels more seamless and without bumping, though arguably it's still difficult to do pure, uncontaminated axis inputs.

Last edited by Reticuli; 03/31/12 10:12 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

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#3548386 - 03/31/12 11:34 PM Re: Saitek X-65F vs Thrustmaster Warthog - My Initial Opinion [Re: Doofie]  
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WileECoyote Offline
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I think you missed several points here, not to be an #%&*$#, but:

1) You mention that you have to mount the X65 stick otherwise it would be hard to use (which is true) but you don't mention that the same things happens with the Warthog throttle (because of the idle and AB detents). BTW, I don't need to bolt the X65 throttle, it just sits in the desk and that's it.

2) Software. Saitek's vs. TM's. TM's is a lot more powerfull, but ugly as hell, lacking many features that Saitek's has, and one of the worst insults of all, it doesn't support 8-way hats that ARE present in the hardware it self!

3) In reality, the X65 twist rudder is pretty much useless IMO, so you end up buying a rudder anyway. smile

4) Features. I think the X65 wins here. For instance, you have two rotaries on the throttle, whereas the Warthog has only one "slider" kind of thing in the throttle base, which I find pretty uncomfortable. This seems to be pretty dumb, but it's not, if you're missing one rotary, you don't have anything else to replace it, it's not like with a button. In general, the X65 is more "general purpose" than the Warthog, that's for sure. The ministick in the X65 has a more wide rage of movement, so it's easy to use for things like radar cursor slew and such. The Warthog's on the other hand... well, I just hate it. smile

Not offense intended, just adding a little more information. :P

Best combination for me, the X65 throttle and the Warthog stick. It's a burden to setup a game, but it works like a dream for me.


When you're feeling sad, just remember that somewhere in the world, there's someone pushing a door that says "pull".
#3548389 - 03/31/12 11:39 PM Re: Saitek X-65F vs Thrustmaster Warthog - My Initial Opinion [Re: Doofie]  
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Teej Offline
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The point of this post in a nutshell: Force input is cool. VERY cool. I love it. But...despite years of using one, I still fly better with a moving stick. If you want a force stick because you want a force stick, that's awesome and I hope you have a ton of fun. If you want to fly your best...you'll have to try both and see what works better.

I can't comment on the X65 as I've never flown one. To put my timeline in perspective, in the early 2000s, I wore out 2 X45 sets playing F4 SP3 and BF1942 (Desert Combat mod). When F4:AF appeared on the horizon, I got my hands on a used Cougar and an "FCC" mod from WhiteEagle which made the Cougar a force stick like the X65.

At the time I thought it was the best thing ever. My flying felt great to me and my refueling was smooth enough that people I was playing multiplayer with thought I was refueling on autopilot. After the online F4AF community started slowing down, I decided to play with dogfighting a bit again - something I had once been pretty good at, but abandoned for the fun I had flying SEAD. In a word...I couldn't dogfight to save my virtual life. In the typical "My F16 vs AI MiG29" scenario I was lucky to win 2-3 times out of 10 without resorting to exploits.

That's when I started hanging around the VTB...who were mostly flying FSSB Cougars...and did pretty well. It was, however, nothing short of an epiphany when I got my hands on a beta Warthog. It took an hour or two of flying to get used to a stick that moved (after flying a non-moving force stick for 5 years) but the next day I joined up in practice and could hold a wing a whole lot better than I ever had with the FCC Cougar. A few days later I loaded up AF and smoked the AI MiG 29 darn near every try.

Now...I do know a pilot or three that actually does fly better with the FSSB than with a moving stick....but most I've discussed it with, when they're truly honest with themselves, are like me - we love the idea/realism (for an F16) of a non-moving stick...but some of us just plain fly better with a moving stick. Don't know why. I still love my FCC Cougar...but...I gotta go with what works better for me. Not looking to sell it. Keep telling myself I'm gonna fly it again...but it's sat on a shelf for nearly 24 months now, getting an occasional dusting off....but has only been hooked up to test something in software. frown


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#3548391 - 03/31/12 11:41 PM Re: Saitek X-65F vs Thrustmaster Warthog - My Initial Opinion [Re: WileECoyote]  
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Teej Offline
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Originally Posted By: WileECoyote

2) Software. Saitek's vs. TM's. TM's is a lot more powerfull, but ugly as hell, lacking many features that Saitek's has, and one of the worst insults of all, it doesn't support 8-way hats that ARE present in the hardware it self!


I too am baffled by that. Did you see my workaround in the software forum, though?

(Truthfully, I have little use for 8 way hats - I always manage to push the wrong way! The software should still support it though.)


#6 - Opposing / Left Solo
Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC | Sponsored by Thrustmaster
#3548701 - 04/01/12 04:51 PM Re: Saitek X-65F vs Thrustmaster Warthog - My Initial Opinion [Re: Doofie]  
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WileECoyote Offline
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I too fly better with regular good ol' pots (...well, not so old hall sensors, but the idea is the same smile ).

And yes Teej, I saw those (really helpful) posts, tried them, even got them working my way. But anyway it's infuriating, really, with Saitek's SST you just click the "little arrow picture" and press the key you want. It takes two seconds!

In my opinion the software for the Warthog was rushed to release. The lack of "native" support for the hats, the incongruent syntax for symbols in the script (like writting F1 or 'a' but having to write USB[86] for some symbol), the fact that the even the GUI editor can't handle symbols (it generates scripts with errors for symbols and you just can't use them in the stick). All speaks of a really short and "we need this for yesterday" kind of developments cycle.

The Satiek's one was also rushed, BTW. No centering? What? Oh yes, the version 7 will resolve that... pfff


When you're feeling sad, just remember that somewhere in the world, there's someone pushing a door that says "pull".
#3549709 - 04/03/12 01:27 PM Re: Saitek X-65F vs Thrustmaster Warthog - My Initial Opinion [Re: Doofie]  
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zcaa0g Offline
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The optimal solution for me is having both the X65F and the full blown CH HOTAS. One point to make about 8 way hats, I always put in a slight delay for the up/down, left/right functions on the 8 way hat switches when I want to use the hat switches 8 way. It's a slight delay where I still get the input processed fast enough, but enough to not process the up/down, left/right commands when I am actually wanting to hit the corners.

The X65's precision is incredible for space combat and mech combat games (not having a joystick throw makes for incredible accuracy in those types of games), but for WW1 and WW2 combat sims, I will always want to use the CH HOTAS for those scenarios since it has more of natural feel.

#3551275 - 04/05/12 06:24 PM Re: Saitek X-65F vs Thrustmaster Warthog - My Initial Opinion [Re: Doofie]  
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Reticuli Offline
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"space combat and mech combat games "

Any of those capable of working on a laptop with integrated Intel graphics?

So far the X65F has been great for EECH with GlovePIE/PPJoy and my trim update scripts. Way better than the X52 and GlovePIE, except for the finicky rudder of course. The stiff throttle actually helps with EE, preventing vortex rings. Interesting. Psyched to make a profile, but it's a lot of work. I left my Gunship! and Longbow Anthology disks in Oregon (don't know why, the CD wallet was only half full), so it will take a while to find isos for them. Those should behave similarly but not require scripting since that already hold attitude (or put another way: your stick commands attitude changes).

Rocks with WWII Fighters. It allows a level of finesse I wasn't expecting with aiming. Just turn Trim On so the nose doesn't require input to keep attitude.

O.k. with Comanche Gold and auto trimming scripts, though I need to give that some more time. Though my GlovePIE script is very elaborate for it, a well-greased X52 without the script turned on always worked quite well for it, requiring you to keep the stick displaced to move. The weak spring and grease helped. I assume the limp CH stick would be similar.

It's passable with Falcon 4AF, but not at the level of just an X52.

It's annoying with Jane's FA-18 and hard to trap.

F-15's graphics menu seems broken.

The X65f or drivers cause Eidos JSF to CTD upon starting a mission.

(edit: fixed this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWCsJy1n8Dw)

Flaming Cliffs scared me after it installed, I had to patch Starforce, and then my laptop wouldn't boot for 4 days... nice thing to have happen while at grad school with an exam on Tuesday. Haven't touched LC:FC since the laptop came back on after a 5 hr memory test a day ago. I assume the full F4 memtest boots into Windows different somehow and bypassed the reg errors caused by Starforce. Sound from my Emu 0204 is causing stuttering with every sim now and I have to use the integrated Realtek sound.

In general, I think the fixed wing flying part of force sensing and pressure sticks is way overrated. It helps with fine gun aiming, but other than that, your flying is worse. That makes sense, because the F-16 is notorious for being difficult just to land precisely with that stick. It's very touchy. The Blue Angels will never move to a no-throw stick because of this. As a rheostat control for AFCS helicopters, it works better than any stick I've ever used. It's just the deadzones need to be significant and the yaw is still clearly using defective hardware.

LB2 and JSF do not allow more than 7 or 8 axis and cannot recognize Windows' preferred joystick setting, so PPJOY/GlovePIE are out for them. Adding pedals probably won't work. You'd need something like the Warthog's software, I think. Thankfully LB2 won't require GlovePIE to do the RC/AH Trim Update thing, as it does it already.

Last edited by Reticuli; 05/26/21 01:40 AM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

http://library.avsim.net/register.php

X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick

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