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#3493173 - 01/12/12 09:11 AM Re: HoI3: Rule Britannia *** [Re: fatty]
enigma6584 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 3907
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Thank you very much gentlemen...that was most descriptive. Wow! Talk about a flexible game. So much depth to it. I'm going to have to look into this one more.


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#3493270 - 01/12/12 11:29 AM Re: HoI3: Rule Britannia [Re: fatty]
TankHunter Offline
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Registered: 11/17/04
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Enigma
Probably the best deal for the game (has all expansions plus extras)
http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-HOI3C/hearts-of-iron-3-collection

The official forums
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?415-Hearts-of-Iron-3
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#3493368 - 01/12/12 01:49 PM Re: HoI3: Rule Britannia [Re: Heretic]
fatty Online   wacky
Senior Member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 3035
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: Heretic
Oh, the possibilities!


Ship an army to Sardinia, load it on transports and land and then steamroll over nothern Italy. If the Italians get nervous and take the bait by moving divisions north, land in the southern part of the peninsular and establish a beachhead. If it gets too hot in northern Italy (Germans moving in from France), retreat to Sardinia and while the Italians are moving back south, start gobbling up territory around your beachhead.
If the Germans don't intervene, go straight for Rome.

Risky, but as wheels would say - that's what the replay button is for smile Think the initial landing via Sardinia should happen above or below Rome? I probably don't want to go much further north than Tuscany; as the 'boot' widens further north, that means increased frontage to defend against counter-attacking Germans from France/Austria.
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#3493377 - 01/12/12 02:13 PM Re: HoI3: Rule Britannia [Re: fatty]
TankHunter Offline
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Registered: 11/17/04
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If you intend to invade mainland Italy, then a line of defense of Monte Cassino - Isernia - Ortona should be sought after IMHO (it is the smallest and easiest to defend frontage). The invasion itself should seek to gain Napoli and Tarantino at the start so as to avoid supply issues. With those two you should be able to supply around 15 divisions without issue. What are your war aims like on Italy?
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I don’t have pet peeves; I have major, psychotic hatreds. - George Carlin

Even if you have a crown and sit at a throne
In the end you will have nothing
Even if you are destined for great riches
In the end you will return to the dust

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#3493664 - 01/12/12 08:24 PM Re: HoI3: Rule Britannia [Re: fatty]
fatty Online   wacky
Senior Member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 3035
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Gentlemen, the input is, as always, greatly appreciated. With your comments in mind, the War Office has prepared a briefing package outlining the present situation in Italy and detailing two proposals for invasion under a campaign titled Operation Pendulum. I urge you to examine the packages before you and consider the feasibility of the proposed operation.



The following images show, from north to south, the best intelligence available for the overall disposition of enemy fighting units within the main peninsula. As you can see, the Italians are mostly dispersed in small but dense pockets near urban centres. Large tracts of beach are virtually unprotected, while most ports are defended by dug-in infantry. For reference, the figures you see in each pane near the urban centre represent brigades in that province. For example, then, Genoa is defended by four infantry brigades, two garrison brigades, and so on. The map colours emphasize terrain features; dark grey is mountainous region, purple is urban, brown is hills, and green is wooded area.





Based on the suggestions so far, two courses of action are proposed which are built upon the same basic principle: landing a force from 2nd Expeditionary Army somewhere on the peninsula with the intention of forcing the Italians to redeploy some of their units at Messina northward. Such redeployments will weaken the Italian hold over their side of the strait and permit 1st Expeditionary Army to conduct a major offensive out of Sicily and into the southern tip of the Italian peninsula.

The chief quesiton is where exactly to land the force from 2nd Army. Course of action #1 proposes a landing north of Rome, perhaps in the vicinity of La Spezia. This approach will benefit 1st Army more 'buffer space' in the south to advance up through the peninsula without immediate fear of any major force counter-attacking from the north, but 2nd Army will likely come under intense attack from German units much sooner.



Course of action #2 proposes a landing south of Rome, around Anzio or Monte Cassino. These landings could threaten Rome directly, and would likely be free from counter-attacks from the north for some time while German units take time to redeploy down the peninsula. However, given the rough terrain in the region enemy strength in and around Rome, the early phases of this landing may be riskier than in course of action #1.



The question of timing remains as well. Tensions are very high between the Soviets and Germans, and a war may erupt within a matter of weeks that could draw a sizeable portion of the German army out of reach of the Mediterranean. Of course, any delay offers the Italians the opportunity to shore up their defences and possibly redeploy units from the Balkans back into the peninsula.

That's what we have for the moment.
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#3493744 - 01/12/12 10:54 PM Re: HoI3: Rule Britannia [Re: fatty]
TankHunter Offline
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Senior Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 2989
The further north that you go past that Monte Cassino - Isernia - Ortona line the more and more land you have to defend width wise. It doesn't pay off from a supply point of view until you get to Genoa and Venezia. The ports between that line and the top of the boot are miniscule in size, which means that you wont get that many more supplies into Italy. So you end up having a situation in which you either need to defend/attack with troops who suffer from low supply or defend/attack with less troops than you would need, all while the Germans start pouring in. The best option that I see is to invade near Napoli and Tarantino, take the ports there quickly, deploy a covering force near a line of Paola - Acri to stop and attrit the enemy forces trapped at the toe of the boot, occupy the Monte Cassino - Isernia - Ortona line and fortify it against the Germans (you should be able to place a level 1 land fort per province if you have built them), then clear out the pockets that are formed with any extra divisions. Then use your navy to keep the pocket near Sicily cut off entirely and use your airforce to try to slow any redeployment from the north. As far as I can tell it is the lowest risk option. It also allows for a future operation akin to the first option that you have so as to cut off the German formations that deployed south (ideally after any war between the USSR and Germany).
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l'Audace, toujours l'audace

I don’t have pet peeves; I have major, psychotic hatreds. - George Carlin

Even if you have a crown and sit at a throne
In the end you will have nothing
Even if you are destined for great riches
In the end you will return to the dust

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#3494178 - 01/13/12 12:42 PM Re: HoI3: Rule Britannia [Re: fatty]
Heretic Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 1673
Loc: GER
I concur with TankHunter. The proven "hammer and anvil" principle should work best on the peninsula. Set up an anvil with one armyy and use the other one as the hammer, then once hammer meets anvil, determine which army is in better shape, load in onto transports and land it in the back of the defenders. Do the hammer -> anvil thing and then repeat until the peninsula is secured.
In the final phases, I would also consider landing in the north and setting up along the Po river to deter german reinforcements from reaching their brothers in arms further south.


Edited by Heretic (01/13/12 12:43 PM)
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#3496142 - 01/16/12 05:00 PM Re: HoI3: Rule Britannia [Re: fatty]
fatty Online   wacky
Senior Member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 3035
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Sorry for the delay, but this has turned out to be a huge update. What was only a few hours of game-time ended up taking me a couple of days to prepare to post!

Operation Pendulum

Given the invaluable feedback on the proposed courses of action, the final plan is a variation of option #2 with major landings conducted by 2nd Army at Naples and Taranto, with 1st Army focused on the bulk of enemy units at Messina.

4th Corps departs Sardinia in late September, arriving off Naples on 1 October. Unfortunately, pounding rainstorms over the last week have turned the landing grounds into a muddy mess. The transports, escorted by 4 Surface Group, hold position off Naples, hoping for a break in the storms for a chance to launch the invasion.



For the next two weeks, the heavy rain persists, giving us no ideal opportunity to attack. While the task force waits for a break in the weather, my tactical bombers hammer the enemy positions at Messina, targeting supply and infrastructure. If and when the defenders redeploy north, they’ll struggle to navigate cratered roads, and will be that much slower to reorient themselves against my landings.



But on 14 October, Italian naval bombers spot the task force and makes an attack run. 4 Surface Group puts up enough AAA to beat them bombers away, but the transports have taken damage.



As the ‘jig’ is up, it’s either attack now or abort. Agropoli looks like an ideal landing ground: weakly held with good access to Naples through Salerno. 4th Corps lands on 15 October without incident and immediately attacks Salerno with good success.



Meanwhile, 6th Corps takes up position off Taranto, and launches their assault near Brindisi. They land successfully, and, after a short battle with two garrison divisions holding the port, seize Taranto.





The timing of our attack could not be better: as our troops are hitting the beaches, the Germans finally launch their much-anticipated attack on the Soviet Union. I don’t particularly wish any great harm on the Soviets, but this move will certainly make things complicated for the Germans once my offense gets underway in Italy.



Back in Italy, our units are fully landed. 4th Corps seizes the port of Salerno, and is in a good posture to strike at Naples. Likewise, 6th Corps is lodged in Taranto and goes on the full offensive.





Oh, guten tag Fritz! Remember us? We’re back!



Good success in our first major engagements breaking out from Salerno and Taranto. Both 4th and 6th Corps are able to form lines from coast to coast, successfully enveloping a large number of Italian divisions between them.



As 4th and 6th Corps attack inwards to close the noose around the Italian divisions, the second part of the plan is put into effect: 3rd Corps of 1st Army lands at Lauria, just north of Messina, and begins a southward charge towards the defenders across the strait.



With the airfields secured at Taranto, I’m able to rebase my close air support groups closer to the action to make better use of them. The pocket between 4th and 6th Corps continues to narrow as it is hammered by planes from Nos. 1, 2, and 3 RAF Dive Bomber Groups.



Enemy units defending at Messina are attempting to redeploy as 3rd Corps makes quick advances down the peninsula. Due to the handiwork of my tactical bombers at the start of the campaign, the roads there are in pieces, so the Italians are quite slow to reorient themselves to face north.



Back near Naples, the Italians in the pocket are completely encircled at Agropoli. Cornered between armoured units of 4th and 6th Corps on land and the guns of 4 Surface Group at sea, the Italians put up a brief defence. 11 exhausted divisions surrender on 16 November, and approximately 75,000 Italians are taken prisoner.



With those units in the pocket obliterated, 4th and 6th Corps reform on the line facing northward, and throw their combined weight into an advance up the peninsula. With a solid frontline established, I am somewhat nervous that the Italians will now be able to put up a cohesive defence. However, the coastal plains make for fantastic terrain to let my armoured divisions prove their worth. We knock 40,000 Italians out of Naples on 24 November, and begin a steady advance northward.



Around the same time, a rather climactic battle is taking place at Messina, where 3rd Corps is attacking the last Italian stronghold south of Naples. The combined Italian-German defending force is starving, out of supply, and subjected to aerial attacks out of Sicily: they hold out for a few hours before another 50,000 prisoners are taken.



With all territory secured in the southern sector, 1st Army will be redeployed to the frontline at Naples. From there, the unified 1st Army Group will push as far north as they can. Beginning this operation, I had no clear idea of how much success to expect, and thought the most I could hope for was to make a few gains in the south and dig in for a long stalemate. We can’t afford to do anything but exploit the disorganization of the Axis defenders. We’ll push all the way to Rome and beyond, if we can. Here is an overview as of 27 November, about six weeks into the campaign.



The next few weeks are fairly uneventful; the Italians put up a running defence, but my armour is continuing to shine in the plains and foothills near the coasts. 1st Army Group has mastered the art of ‘bypass’ attacks, where tanks blitz along the coast, bypassing large clusters of defending divisions in the centre and encircling those clusters around the rear. Infantry advancing up the centre then attack and destroy those miniature pockets formed by armour encirclement. It’s not very long before Rome is within sight.



The unfortunate risks of letting armour move so far ahead: sometimes, quick-acting mobile Italian divisions can cut off my armour’s own lines of communication back to the main army. Situations like this might only last for a few hours, as friendly divisions close behind attack and re-open the supply routes.



By early January 1942, Rome is totally surrounded and under siege by the 1st Armoured, Guards Armoured, and 45th Wessex Infantry. Fierce fighting in the city streets lasts for a few days, but by 8 January the Italian capital falls, and another 40,000 enemy soldiers surrender.



The northward push continues into February. I guess by this time, the Italian army on the peninsula has been completely destroyed, because all my boys are facing now are third-rate expeditionary forces from Hungary and Romania. Still no sign whatsoever of the massive German counter-attack I was expecting; I guess much of the German army is engaged against the Soviets for the time being.

I had apprehensions about attacking so far into Italy that the front would become too wide to properly defend against counter-attacks. But, as we advance, I realize that the Germans do not yet have a full transit agreement with Vichy France, both Vichy France and Switzerland are officially unaligned. Therefore, any counter-attacking German units will have to come directly through Germany herself, giving us a much more narrow front (from Switzerland to the Adriatic) to defend if necessary Onward!



The march into northern Italy is somewhat slower than hoped; spearhead divisions have moved out of range of our own air cover and into the range of Axis dive bombers. The air raids force us to fight on the defensive for a bit, but there are no serious losses to report.

Finally, on 17 February, the 45th Wessex rolls into Venice. Italy is done. The remnants of the Italian army surrender, the Mussolini government goes into exile, a military occupation government is installed in Rome, and Operation Pendulum comes to a close – victory beyond our best predictions.





With Italy knocked out of the war, the options for our next step in southern Europe are wide open. Consolidate here and hold what we have? Into the Balkans perhaps? Or take our chances with a straight thrust to Berlin?

Other Developments

The biggest update to report on is the Japanese declaration of war against both the United Kingdom and the United States on 15 November. The Japanese have made a few small gains in southeast Asia so far, but nothing serious. Now that the Mediterannean campaign is winding down, it’ll be necessary to redeploy some of our naval task groups into the Pacific. The Germans have been applying pretty heavy diplomatic pressure to the US, and have so far stayed out of the war with Japan. As a result, US interest in becoming involved in the war in Europe is still minimal. We haven’t yet been able to establish a formal alliance with the US, but we’re working on it.



As far as the war between Germany and the Soviets, I have no reliable information about what is happening on the front lines. We do know that the Germans have made big gains so far. It’ll be interesting to see how well they do now, as we settle into the coldest months of 1942.

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#3496281 - 01/16/12 09:37 PM Re: HoI3: Rule Britannia [Re: fatty]
Ajay Offline
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Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 14790
Loc: Brisbane OZ
Excellent read so far Fatty and excellent supporting pictures . Well done in Italy and Africa as well. Sort of weird seeing the war play out like this..no Rommel , no Malta under siege, no Battle of Britain, Bismark and Tirpitz gone and Germnay just plugging along into Russia as if nothing is going on behind her. I would be inclined for a direct thrust to Berlin just to see how it plays out, see if i couldn't split Germany in half aiming for the Baltic biggrin Some big flanks to protect though.

Maybe send a feint across the channel and into Norway as well to try and keep the Germans from sending any help to the Fatherland although you probably wouldn't need too to in Norway as you have sea supremacy so they are basically bottled in there.

Whatever you do i would think old Adolf will be squirming about now.



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#3496504 - 01/17/12 09:32 AM Re: HoI3: Rule Britannia [Re: fatty]
fatty Online   wacky
Senior Member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 3035
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
It is really interesting to see how different the war has played out so far. Although the Italian campaign was big success, I wouldn't say that the Germans are down and out yet. Compare the graphic above of the German advances into the Soviet Union with their historical progress:



So, between October 1941 and January 1942 in my game, the Germans have almost achieved what historically was done between June and September 1941. As I've been preoccupied with the goings-on in Italy, I've not been following the German activity close enough to know if they've stalled as the cold has crept up. But, they've definitely made some big gains in the small amount of time before the winter. Without knowing very much about overall German army disposition in Europe, one possible scenario where I could see the Germans coming out on top would be something like a reverse Schlieffen Plan. That is, if the Germans can quickly knock the Soviets out in the spring and summer, divisions on the eastern front can be redeployed back west to counter-attack my foothold in Italy. And I'm not without problems on my end: I have no strategic reserve to support big thrusts or attacks on other fronts, and I guess I will now have to rob my navy of some groups to send to the Pacific.

So, I guess the big two options are to essentially take a gamble and drive north into Germany, or hunker down and start churning out more divisions for attacks elsewhere.

The next couple of months will definitely be interesting!
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