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#3579402 - 05/25/12 03:05 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Lonewolf357]
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Member
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Hungary, Europe
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They may approach low, and pop up suddenly at HARM's maximum range, fire and turn back. A lot depends on terrain, though...
Since the first few days of Desert Storm, it is forbidden for NATO planes to fly below manpad range.
I had conversation with one S-300 officer, and he claims that they can fire at F-22 at long distances, up to their maximum range of 90 km (it is S-300PS). However, we strongly disagreed on what RCS those Stealth planes have: he thinks that it is 0,3 square meters, I insisted on something around 0,002 - 0,003 square meters (this figure, in relation to F-22, was named at Russian forum by one RuAF pilot, who has access to classified information). Would be intersting to hear your opinion on the subject.
S-300PS is designed to counter targets with 0.2m RCS. page 60. of this book:  Russians used to underestimate the Stealth capabilities during the 80's~90's. B-2 ~ 1m F-22 (ATF) ~ 0.2m 
From what I've heard, from both S-300 officer, and from ECM guys, it is not so: S-300 is suseptble for jamming, although much less so than any other type. Even heard opinion of one French fighter pilot, who claims that they have no problem suppressing S-300, if necessary, although what is meant by "suppressing", remains unclear. Also heard that new S-400 has far, far better jamming resistance, due to ability to rapidly change signal polarisation, that's why Russian military so happy about this system, not because of its longer range.
All fighter pilots are believe in their equipment superiority. 
Edited by Hpasp (05/25/12 03:11 AM)
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3579420 - 05/25/12 04:23 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 04/27/12
Posts: 239
Loc: Czech Republic
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Got SR-71 when fired at distance of 182km :-) First two missiles failed to acquire target. 1967.
SR-71 Operation Tallin.
S-200VE Vega-E
00:10:36, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 193km
Target azimuth: 50°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 901m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 19,9dB
00:10:43, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 187km
Target azimuth: 51°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 900m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 20,7dB
00:10:48, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 182km
Target azimuth: 51°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 898m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 21,3dB
00:11:01, Missile launched from launcher-4
Target distance: 170km
Target azimuth: 52°
Target elevation: 7°
Target angular speed: 889m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 22,8dB
00:11:24, Missile launched from launcher-5
Target distance: 151km
Target azimuth: 53°
Target elevation: 8°
Target angular speed: 903m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 25,4dB
00:11:28, Missile launched from launcher-6
Target distance: 146km
Target azimuth: 53°
Target elevation: 8°
Target angular speed: 902m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target before launch
Received signal strength: 26dB
00:12:13, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 29m)
00:12:20, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 7m)
00:12:38, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 15m)
00:12:42, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 15m)
00:12:58, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 90km
Target azimuth: 54°
Target elevation: 12°
Target angular speed: 116m/s (0,4 Mach)
Target altitude: 20,5km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target before launch
Received signal strength: 33,3dB
Total, SNR On Air Time: 5min 28sec
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#3579432 - 05/25/12 04:57 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Alien_MasterMynd]
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Member
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Hungary, Europe
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Got SR-71 when fired at distance of 182km :-) First two missiles failed to acquire target. 1967.
SR-71 Operation Tallin.
S-200VE Vega-E
00:10:36, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 193km
Target azimuth: 50°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 901m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 19,9dB
00:10:43, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 187km
Target azimuth: 51°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 900m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 20,7dB
00:10:48, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 182km
Target azimuth: 51°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 898m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 21,3dB
00:11:01, Missile launched from launcher-4
Target distance: 170km
Target azimuth: 52°
Target elevation: 7°
Target angular speed: 889m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 22,8dB
00:11:24, Missile launched from launcher-5
Target distance: 151km
Target azimuth: 53°
Target elevation: 8°
Target angular speed: 903m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 25,4dB
00:11:28, Missile launched from launcher-6
Target distance: 146km
Target azimuth: 53°
Target elevation: 8°
Target angular speed: 902m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target before launch
Received signal strength: 26dB
00:12:13, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 29m)
00:12:20, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 7m)
00:12:38, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 15m)
00:12:42, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 15m)
00:12:58, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 90km
Target azimuth: 54°
Target elevation: 12°
Target angular speed: 116m/s (0,4 Mach)
Target altitude: 20,5km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target before launch
Received signal strength: 33,3dB
Total, SNR On Air Time: 5min 28sec They were launched pretty far from the required 25dB target signal level...
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3579443 - 05/25/12 05:28 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 04/27/12
Posts: 239
Loc: Czech Republic
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Yes, I wanted to try, SR-71 is really fast and is heading directly to S-200. SAM simulator is great for such experiments :-)
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#3579446 - 05/25/12 05:55 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Alien_MasterMynd]
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Member
Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 872
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Yes, I wanted to try, SR-71 is really fast and is heading directly to S-200. SAM simulator is great for such experiments :-) You can create a dB against distance curve, than as we knew the missile's GSN is searching for the target at about 60 to 80 km missile flight, you could "adjust" your firing solution, just 60 km before the "25 dB" point... 
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#3579447 - 05/25/12 05:57 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 04/27/12
Posts: 239
Loc: Czech Republic
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yes :-) but in this case the safe distance was about 30km. Earlier fired missile haven't acquired the target until given time after launch and destroyed themselves.
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#3579459 - 05/25/12 06:40 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: piston79]
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Member
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Hungary, Europe
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Yes, I wanted to try, SR-71 is really fast and is heading directly to S-200. SAM simulator is great for such experiments :-) You can create a dB against distance curve, than as we knew the missile's GSN is searching for the target at about 60 to 80 km missile flight, you could "adjust" your firing solution, just 60 km before the "25 dB" point... The "dB against distance curve" is in front of you, tovarish. (Screen Q)
_________________________
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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#3579460 - 05/25/12 06:46 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Alien_MasterMynd]
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Member
Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 872
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yes :-) but in this case the safe distance was about 30km. Earlier fired missile haven't acquired the target until given time after launch and destroyed themselves. I don't get it...  I believe the missile could fly at least 60 km before self-destruction... Dear Hpasp, Do you have some info about the russian "Tu-154", which was shot down from an ukrainian "Vega"? Probably those guys didn't use FKM or IADS to determine the distance?
Edited by piston79 (05/25/12 07:06 AM)
Edit Reason: Picture added
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#3579532 - 05/25/12 09:08 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Member
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 1271
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Ah - there is a perfect example - note the 'correct' 'skorost' summary data, the 'correct' skorost tool-tip, and the really odd scale values on the right. I think it is purely a GE problem after checking the values for the E2C and SU9 from two earlier AAR.
I still think that the 'internal' velocity profiles for missiles might need looking at for the post-burn-out case - there seems to be a very large instantaneous drop, then no further loss. It might just be a foible of the track that I was viewing (Alien Mastermind, SA2/U2 (I think)). If it is in error this might explain why the T/T mode is more effective at long range/high altitude/fast target than some expect.
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#3579615 - 05/25/12 11:26 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: piston79]
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farokh
Member
Registered: 04/22/12
Posts: 612
Loc: IRAN
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yes :-) but in this case the safe distance was about 30km. Earlier fired missile haven't acquired the target until given time after launch and destroyed themselves. I don't get it... I believe the missile could fly at least 60 km before self-destruction... Dear Hpasp, Do you have some info about the russian "Tu-154", which was shot down from an ukrainian "Vega"? Probably those guys didn't use FKM or IADS to determine the distance? dear piston accully im not a very professional and im not critic of sam systems but one thing i know.! i think this is important! we have to open our eyes for loooking good about sa-5 usualy one big missile was degined for big target !! ! i dont belive it vega can destroy fast fighter with hard manuevering ! I am confident USSR creat this system for attack too big aircraft like ,awax,refuling tanker,bigest bomber... also looks like aircraft's is built to destroy missiles have very little ability to maneuver  in real life i dont thik vega can destroy type of fighter like f-15 , f-16 , also f-18 ! vega in real world at this time only has a 2 function ! num 1: scaning sky like ground avax num 2: attack to fighter and bomber with little ability to maneuvering best regard milang
Edited by milang (05/25/12 01:48 PM)
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