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#3525815 - 02/25/12 04:47 AM
Flight Time
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,674
EinsteinEP
Just a Noob
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Just a Noob
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,674
Tucson, AZ
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Tonight, DethJeff and I spent 45 minutes up in the air in our two Hogs and finally landed, after a tiring but exhilirating mission. The strange thing was, not only did we not fire a single round for the entire mission: we didn't even bring any ammo with us! I've been on a formation flying bend the past month or so, and DethJeff helped me out by alternating as my lead and wingman while I practiced a key formation flying skill: station keeping. We took turns flying each other's wing in straight and level flight and basic turns and then descended to Kobuleti for a section landing - not bad considering we were both noobs at it.  Jeff on my wing as we take on the challenge of station-keeping in straight and level flight. Not as easy as it sounds!  A shot of Jeff off my right wing.  Mission over, we hop out of the jets and over to the O-club for some margaritas
Shoot to Kill.
Play to Have Fun.
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#3525818 - 02/25/12 04:51 AM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: EinsteinEP]
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,764
Weaponz248
Hail To The King Baby!!
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Hail To The King Baby!!
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,764
Statesboro GA USA
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Wow thats cool!
Might have to join you guys up there sometime. I have never flown formation or online ever......
Last edited by Weaponz248; 02/25/12 04:52 AM.
XBOX Live Tag/Steam/PSN: Weaponz248
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#3525886 - 02/25/12 10:29 AM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: EinsteinEP]
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
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The funny thing is that the formation flying you did, while looking good, is apparently useless in real life, aside from airshows. Spacing in RL is 3000-6000 feet which would mean the other guy was more likely a speck on the horizon... Also try keeping formation while "working," damn hard!
It's all good fun though. I once spent 2 hours online just doing touch-and-gos and interacting with a live-person ATC. While it is annoying to be given the go-around, it was immersive since the guy coming in just had a bad touch-and-go and apparently his left main gear would not retract and extend fully and so had to return straight away... nice.
- Ice
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#3525982 - 02/25/12 04:10 PM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: EinsteinEP]
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,674
EinsteinEP
Just a Noob
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Just a Noob
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,674
Tucson, AZ
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The value in stuff you think is "useless", Ice, like formation flight and ATC interaction, is the skills learned and applied later.
Shoot to Kill.
Play to Have Fun.
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#3526016 - 02/25/12 05:00 PM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: - Ice]
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 9,581
Sim
Hotshot
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Hotshot
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 9,581
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The funny thing is that the formation flying you did, while looking good, is apparently useless in real life, aside from airshows. Spacing in RL is 3000-6000 feet which would mean the other guy was more likely a speck on the horizon... Also try keeping formation while "working," damn hard!
It's all good fun though. I once spent 2 hours online just doing touch-and-gos and interacting with a live-person ATC. While it is annoying to be given the go-around, it was immersive since the guy coming in just had a bad touch-and-go and apparently his left main gear would not retract and extend fully and so had to return straight away... nice. Some applications for close formation; if one airplane looses radio/navigational issues and has to descent through weather. Another, doing BDA by flying around each other. Refueling is a formation. It's not useless.
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#3526027 - 02/25/12 05:49 PM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: - Ice]
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
GrayGhost
Hotshot
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Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
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Actually fingertip and route formations are very useful in a number of situations. It is also called 'parade formation' for obvious reasons. It is not being flown correctly in the above screenshots (too far aft of the line). Formations at 3000-6000' could be anything from fighting wing (inside 3000) to some form of tactical at 6000', and tactical tends to be advanced when in use ... most people don't know what to do with it other than making it look nice (and most people don't seem able to fly their position anyway) The funny thing is that the formation flying you did, while looking good, is apparently useless in real life, aside from airshows. Spacing in RL is 3000-6000 feet which would mean the other guy was more likely a speck on the horizon... Also try keeping formation while "working," damn hard!
It's all good fun though. I once spent 2 hours online just doing touch-and-gos and interacting with a live-person ATC. While it is annoying to be given the go-around, it was immersive since the guy coming in just had a bad touch-and-go and apparently his left main gear would not retract and extend fully and so had to return straight away... nice.
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44th VFW
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#3526038 - 02/25/12 06:12 PM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: EinsteinEP]
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
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Lol, yes in real life "spitting distance" formation flying can be useful, but since when did you have to give finger/hand signals in DCS A10C? And you can "stay together" via the use of the data link in the TGP.
While it is fun to practice this type of formation flying, outside of refueling, there is no real "need" for this. Do you need tandem takeoffs and formation landing? No. Looks good and exciting to do though. Do you need wingtip formation en-route? Not really, and if you ever need to go heads down while in close formation... well, try it to see how "scary" it can be. Do you need this formation during combat? Hell no. If you are in close formation and AAA comes up, it'll probably get the wingman if it's aimed at the lead. Plus the wingman is pretty much useless as "cover" in a shooter-cover attack if he's this close anyway.
Funny how people seemed to jump on my "useless" comment... I'm just saying there is no practical use of this aside from "looking cool." You don't even have to do this type of formation when refuelling, unless you're the one taking fuel. But is it fun to do? Hell yeah, especially on those 50nm ingress-to-IP. Formation landings is one of my favorite, and had good laughs once when my lead landed and braked immediately while I aerobraked and crashed into him.
- Ice
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#3526093 - 02/25/12 08:37 PM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: - Ice]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
BeachAV8R
Lifer
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Lifer
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
KCLT
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Funny how people seemed to jump on my "useless" comment... I'm just saying there is no practical use of this aside from "looking cool." They jumped on your comment because you are wrong. Flying close formation has real, measurable value. As Sim mentioned (and he went through UPT if I'm not mistaken) if you are caught on top of a cloud deck with no instruments, the ability to fly very close on your wingman could save your life. It is better to practice and perfect close formation in training than to have to learn it during a real scenario. "The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in combat.." A lot of the skills you learn as a pilot (whether simulated or real) have questionable real life applications but provide the foundation for other skills. Every year I go to SimuFlite on the Citation and they give me a thrust reverser deployment on takeoff - even though there has never been a TR deployment on takeoff in a Citation EVER. But if I'm the first it happens to, I'll be prepared for it. BeachAV8R
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#3526095 - 02/25/12 08:38 PM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: - Ice]
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
GrayGhost
Hotshot
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Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
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While it is fun to practice this type of formation flying, outside of refueling, there is no real "need" for this. Sure there is. Do you need tandem takeoffs and formation landing? Yes. Do you need wingtip formation en-route? Depends on the weather. Not really, and if you ever need to go heads down while in close formation... well, try it to see how "scary" it can be. If you're on the wing in fingertip, you don't go heads down. Period. If you need to, you fly out to route and do it there. That's proper procedure. No, you don't need permission. Do you need this formation during combat? Hell no. If you are in close formation and AAA comes up, it'll probably get the wingman if it's aimed at the lead. Plus the wingman is pretty much useless as "cover" in a shooter-cover attack if he's this close anyway. It isn't a combat formation. Shooter-cover is a tactic that has little to do with formations other than what formation you're supposed to get into after you complete your attack. Formations are part of tactics, not the other way around. Funny how people seemed to jump on my "useless" comment... I'm just saying there is no practical use of this aside from "looking cool." They jumped on it because you are wrong. This sort of formation is useful in weather penetration, certain navigation maneuvers, overhead landings, and it helps you hone precision flying and good flight safety skills. The only reason to think this sort of thing isn't useful is because the purpose of the formation, as well as the benefits of practicing it are not understood. Same deal with contact flying - most vPilots just don't do it. You don't even have to do this type of formation when refuelling, unless you're the one taking fuel. Or if you want to exercise proper refueling procedure and do quick-flows.
Last edited by GrayGhost; 02/25/12 08:40 PM.
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44th VFW
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#3526102 - 02/25/12 09:06 PM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: - Ice]
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 488
Snoopy_476th
Member
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Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 488
Warner Robins Ga, USA
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Lol, yes in real life "spitting distance" formation flying can be useful, but since when did you have to give finger/hand signals in DCS A10C? And you can "stay together" via the use of the data link in the TGP.
While it is fun to practice this type of formation flying, outside of refueling, there is no real "need" for this. Do you need tandem takeoffs and formation landing? No. Looks good and exciting to do though. Do you need wingtip formation en-route? Not really, and if you ever need to go heads down while in close formation... well, try it to see how "scary" it can be. Do you need this formation during combat? Hell no. If you are in close formation and AAA comes up, it'll probably get the wingman if it's aimed at the lead. Plus the wingman is pretty much useless as "cover" in a shooter-cover attack if he's this close anyway.
Funny how people seemed to jump on my "useless" comment... I'm just saying there is no practical use of this aside from "looking cool." You don't even have to do this type of formation when refuelling, unless you're the one taking fuel. But is it fun to do? Hell yeah, especially on those 50nm ingress-to-IP. Formation landings is one of my favorite, and had good laughs once when my lead landed and braked immediately while I aerobraked and crashed into him. Not used in real life...I guess I need to tell my Pilot on monday when they are returning to base after their training sortie to not be in close echelon formation before the break over Moody....or he can't do formation landings if planned...or formation takeoffs.... You may not be able to give hand signals in DCS but if set up you could say "when my head moves right twice we'll turn to the right" which would cut out having to make a call to your wingman you're turning right.
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#3526111 - 02/25/12 09:38 PM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: Snoopy_476th]
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 15,827
Mace71
Dread pirate Mace
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Dread pirate Mace
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 15,827
Darlington, UK.
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you could say "when my head moves right twice we'll turn to the right" which would cut out having to make a call to your wingman you're turning right. Ok, how many did the head movement when reading that? I did lol 
Antec 902 | Intel i7 920 2.66Ghz OC'd to 3.40GHz | MSI GeForce GTX 660 Black Knight 2048MB GDDR5 | Corsair 6GB DDR3 | Coolermaster V8 CPU Cooler | W7 64
"There is only one way to avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing and be nothing." Aristotle
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#3526116 - 02/25/12 09:43 PM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: EinsteinEP]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,771
Para_Bellum
Oberkriegkaboomführer
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Oberkriegkaboomführer
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,771
Germany
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I just had a fun online evening with my flightsim buddies. On one mission (overcast, low cloud ceiling) I got shot up pretty badly by SAMs and got escorted back to base by my two wingmen. I had basically no instruments, a dead engine and a hog full of holes and my wingmen in close formation not only brought me safely through the clouds but on a perfect approach to the runway.
"...late afternoon the Air Tasking Order came in [and] we found the A-10 part and we said, "We are going where!? We are doing what!?"
Capt. Todd Sheehy, Hog pilot, on receiving orders during Operation Desert Storm
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#3526117 - 02/25/12 09:45 PM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: Para_Bellum]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
BeachAV8R
Lifer
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Lifer
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
KCLT
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I just had a fun online evening with my flightsim buddies. On one mission (overcast, low cloud ceiling) I got shot up pretty badly by SAMs and got escorted back to base by my two wingmen. I had basically no instruments, a dead engine and a hog full of holes and my wingmen in close formation not only brought me safely through the clouds but on a perfect approach to the runway. You owe them a beer..
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#3526229 - 02/26/12 02:08 AM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: EinsteinEP]
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 239
Lobo_63
Member
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Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 239
Canada
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Tonight, DethJeff and I spent 45 minutes up in the air in our two Hogs and finally landed, after a tiring but exhilirating mission. The strange thing was, not only did we not fire a single round for the entire mission: we didn't even bring any ammo with us!
You know it's a great sim when...  Sounds like great fun. Good pics too.
The most important thing in fighting was shooting, next the various tactics in coming into a fight and last of all flying ability itself. — Lt. Colonel W. A. 'Billy' Bishop, RCAF. Lobo's DCS A-10C Normal Checklist & Quick Reference Handbook version 8c now available for download here: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/172905/
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#3526338 - 02/26/12 08:43 AM
Re: Flight Time
[Re: - Ice]
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
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The funny thing is that the formation flying you did, while looking good, is apparently useless in real life, aside from airshows. Spacing in RL is 3000-6000 feet which would mean the other guy was more likely a speck on the horizon... Also try keeping formation while "working," damn hard!
It's all good fun though. I once spent 2 hours online just doing touch-and-gos and interacting with a live-person ATC. While it is annoying to be given the go-around, it was immersive since the guy coming in just had a bad touch-and-go and apparently his left main gear would not retract and extend fully and so had to return straight away... nice. I was wondering why all the heat and when so many people are saying I'm wrong I got confused. Then read my post, lol. No wonder. I think what I was trying to say is that the formation flying is useful in real life (as many of you have provided examples) but not so much in the sim. I've apparently contradicted myself in the very next post I made: Lol, yes in real life "spitting distance" formation flying can be useful, but since when did you have to give finger/hand signals in DCS A10C? I do apologize for the confusion. My only excuse is that I'm doing night shifts and I must've been half-asleep at the keyboard. That would probably also explain my grumpy posts lately. So let me reiterate that one more time --- formation flying is useful in real life but not as useful in the sim. It still is fun though, especially formation landings. *Note that I've yet again just come off night shift so if something does not read right, cut me some slack. 
- Ice
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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