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#3526093 - 02/25/12 03:37 PM Re: Flight Time [Re: - Ice]
BeachAV8R Offline
Lifer

Registered: 01/22/01
Posts: 22683
Loc: KCLT
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Funny how people seemed to jump on my "useless" comment... I'm just saying there is no practical use of this aside from "looking cool."

They jumped on your comment because you are wrong. Flying close formation has real, measurable value. As Sim mentioned (and he went through UPT if I'm not mistaken) if you are caught on top of a cloud deck with no instruments, the ability to fly very close on your wingman could save your life. It is better to practice and perfect close formation in training than to have to learn it during a real scenario. "The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in combat.." A lot of the skills you learn as a pilot (whether simulated or real) have questionable real life applications but provide the foundation for other skills. Every year I go to SimuFlite on the Citation and they give me a thrust reverser deployment on takeoff - even though there has never been a TR deployment on takeoff in a Citation EVER. But if I'm the first it happens to, I'll be prepared for it.

BeachAV8R
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#3526095 - 02/25/12 03:38 PM Re: Flight Time [Re: - Ice]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 4314
Originally Posted By: - Ice
While it is fun to practice this type of formation flying, outside of refueling, there is no real "need" for this.


Sure there is.

Quote:
Do you need tandem takeoffs and formation landing?


Yes.

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Do you need wingtip formation en-route?


Depends on the weather.

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Not really, and if you ever need to go heads down while in close formation... well, try it to see how "scary" it can be.


If you're on the wing in fingertip, you don't go heads down. Period. If you need to, you fly out to route and do it there. That's proper procedure. No, you don't need permission.

Quote:
Do you need this formation during combat? Hell no. If you are in close formation and AAA comes up, it'll probably get the wingman if it's aimed at the lead. Plus the wingman is pretty much useless as "cover" in a shooter-cover attack if he's this close anyway.


It isn't a combat formation. Shooter-cover is a tactic that has little to do with formations other than what formation you're supposed to get into after you complete your attack. Formations are part of tactics, not the other way around.

Quote:
Funny how people seemed to jump on my "useless" comment... I'm just saying there is no practical use of this aside from "looking cool."


They jumped on it because you are wrong. This sort of formation is useful in weather penetration, certain navigation maneuvers, overhead landings, and it helps you hone precision flying and good flight safety skills. The only reason to think this sort of thing isn't useful is because the purpose of the formation, as well as the benefits of practicing it are not understood.

Same deal with contact flying - most vPilots just don't do it.

Quote:
You don't even have to do this type of formation when refuelling, unless you're the one taking fuel.


Or if you want to exercise proper refueling procedure and do quick-flows.


Edited by GrayGhost (02/25/12 03:40 PM)
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#3526102 - 02/25/12 04:06 PM Re: Flight Time [Re: - Ice]
paulrkiii Offline
Commander 476 vFG
Member

Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 177
Loc: Warner Robins Ga, USA
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Lol, yes in real life "spitting distance" formation flying can be useful, but since when did you have to give finger/hand signals in DCS A10C? And you can "stay together" via the use of the data link in the TGP.

While it is fun to practice this type of formation flying, outside of refueling, there is no real "need" for this. Do you need tandem takeoffs and formation landing? No. Looks good and exciting to do though. Do you need wingtip formation en-route? Not really, and if you ever need to go heads down while in close formation... well, try it to see how "scary" it can be. Do you need this formation during combat? Hell no. If you are in close formation and AAA comes up, it'll probably get the wingman if it's aimed at the lead. Plus the wingman is pretty much useless as "cover" in a shooter-cover attack if he's this close anyway.

Funny how people seemed to jump on my "useless" comment... I'm just saying there is no practical use of this aside from "looking cool." You don't even have to do this type of formation when refuelling, unless you're the one taking fuel. But is it fun to do? Hell yeah, especially on those 50nm ingress-to-IP. Formation landings is one of my favorite, and had good laughs once when my lead landed and braked immediately while I aerobraked and crashed into him.


Not used in real life...I guess I need to tell my Pilot on monday when they are returning to base after their training sortie to not be in close echelon formation before the break over Moody....or he can't do formation landings if planned...or formation takeoffs....

You may not be able to give hand signals in DCS but if set up you could say "when my head moves right twice we'll turn to the right" which would cut out having to make a call to your wingman you're turning right.
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#3526111 - 02/25/12 04:38 PM Re: Flight Time [Re: paulrkiii]
MaceUK33 Offline
Everything is true
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Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 12215
Loc: Darlington, UK.
Originally Posted By: paulrkiii
you could say "when my head moves right twice we'll turn to the right" which would cut out having to make a call to your wingman you're turning right.


Ok, how many did the head movement when reading that? I did lol biggrin
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#3526116 - 02/25/12 04:43 PM Re: Flight Time [Re: EinsteinEP]
Para_Bellum Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 6438
Loc: Germany
I just had a fun online evening with my flightsim buddies. On one mission (overcast, low cloud ceiling) I got shot up pretty badly by SAMs and got escorted back to base by my two wingmen. I had basically no instruments, a dead engine and a hog full of holes and my wingmen in close formation not only brought me safely through the clouds but on a perfect approach to the runway.
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#3526117 - 02/25/12 04:45 PM Re: Flight Time [Re: Para_Bellum]
BeachAV8R Offline
Lifer

Registered: 01/22/01
Posts: 22683
Loc: KCLT
Originally Posted By: Para_Bellum
I just had a fun online evening with my flightsim buddies. On one mission (overcast, low cloud ceiling) I got shot up pretty badly by SAMs and got escorted back to base by my two wingmen. I had basically no instruments, a dead engine and a hog full of holes and my wingmen in close formation not only brought me safely through the clouds but on a perfect approach to the runway.


You owe them a beer..

biggrin
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#3526229 - 02/25/12 09:08 PM Re: Flight Time [Re: EinsteinEP]
Lobo_63 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 224
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: EinsteinEP
Tonight, DethJeff and I spent 45 minutes up in the air in our two Hogs and finally landed, after a tiring but exhilirating mission. The strange thing was, not only did we not fire a single round for the entire mission: we didn't even bring any ammo with us!


You know it's a great sim when... smile

Sounds like great fun. Good pics too.
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#3526267 - 02/25/12 10:37 PM Re: Flight Time [Re: EinsteinEP]
Sim Online   cool
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Registered: 09/18/01
Posts: 8917
Loc: Vegas
GrayGhost, what are the proper finger tip parameters?

2 helping lead to push right rudder with wintip is probably too close


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#3526274 - 02/25/12 10:57 PM Re: Flight Time [Re: EinsteinEP]
paulrkiii Offline
Commander 476 vFG
Member

Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 177
Loc: Warner Robins Ga, USA
Here is a guide I put together for the 25th based on real world A-10 training material....












































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#3526338 - 02/26/12 03:43 AM Re: Flight Time [Re: - Ice]
- Ice Offline
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Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 7416
Loc: Philippines / North East UK
Originally Posted By: - Ice
The funny thing is that the formation flying you did, while looking good, is apparently useless in real life, aside from airshows. Spacing in RL is 3000-6000 feet which would mean the other guy was more likely a speck on the horizon... Also try keeping formation while "working," damn hard!

It's all good fun though. I once spent 2 hours online just doing touch-and-gos and interacting with a live-person ATC. While it is annoying to be given the go-around, it was immersive since the guy coming in just had a bad touch-and-go and apparently his left main gear would not retract and extend fully and so had to return straight away... nice.


I was wondering why all the heat and when so many people are saying I'm wrong I got confused. Then read my post, lol. No wonder.

I think what I was trying to say is that the formation flying is useful in real life (as many of you have provided examples) but not so much in the sim. I've apparently contradicted myself in the very next post I made:
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Lol, yes in real life "spitting distance" formation flying can be useful, but since when did you have to give finger/hand signals in DCS A10C?


I do apologize for the confusion. My only excuse is that I'm doing night shifts and I must've been half-asleep at the keyboard. That would probably also explain my grumpy posts lately. So let me reiterate that one more time --- formation flying is useful in real life but not as useful in the sim. It still is fun though, especially formation landings.

*Note that I've yet again just come off night shift so if something does not read right, cut me some slack. sleepy
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